Astra Militarum tanks and marines

[Lord_Urbonov]

So, with the release of the new guard- I mean, Astra Militarum codex, I have been plagued by vivid dreams of tanks and artillery batteries. Logically concluding this is a message from the Emprah himself, I'm setting out on a long road to collect and play a tank/artillery heavy list

 

But I was also thinking about Marines, and I wanted to ask, does anyone with experience think tanks and space marines can mesh effectively? Could I use marines to protect my stationary artillery or stick them in drop pods. Or am I better off using marines as my main force?

 

Basically, in short, what I'm asking is can anyone offer advice on how to make tanks and marines work together.

 

Thanks.

[minigun762]

I don't see why some cheap Tac Squads or even Scouts couldn't bubble wrap the tanks. Combat squad gives you some decent deployment options and basic bolters and a flamer will see off most infantry deep strikers. Take the melta bomb for Ironclads.

[incinerator950]

I was thinking of doing this for my Chaos Warband, but I'd be better served waiting for the new FW IA codex for Chaos.

[tdemayo]

I'm thinking that Marines are best used to give Guard mobility. As I see it, the Guard are excellent at creating a fire base, but bad at going out and capturing objectives. Tanks are durable, but only hold objectives in 1 scenario. They are generally better at the rear, anyway. So I'd use the Marine codex to add bikes or drop pods or other units that can grab things on the other side of the table.

[MagicMan]

^ Agreed with Tdemayo.

 

 

Grab a few Marine squads in Drop pods to smash down and take objectives while the IG clear the table...

 

Would be very fun, i think.

[Leonaides]

marines as your primary, guard as your allies, take a platoon for many scoring bodies and a russ squadron. job done - 2 major deficiencies in mairne armies is lack of bodies and lack of big nasty tanks that kill lots of things.

[WarriorFish]

Guard make great allies for Marines, providing numbers and fire power along with more accessible heavy armour. Take a Platoon and you have all the infantry you could need (and more!) with plenty of options in how you run them. Obviously long range supporting fire works best as has been mentioned, letting your Marines close in for the kill.

It's a good combination as you can imagine but you need to be mindful of how they work together. For example you should be wary of flinging pie plates around as much as a normal Guard army would as you don't want to risk hitting your Marines once they've engaged the enemy in close quarters. Fortunately Guard have plenty of direct fire weaponry if you'd rather not take any risks

You can use the Guardsmen to protect your back field Marine vehicles/units too, letting your more valuable and effective Marines get stuck into the enemy where they are best. If your plan is the other way around them Marines make good friends to Guardsmen, allowing your infantry pushes to be far more durable and effective as well as providing a solid defence if you want to protect something (eg tanks). I think that the match up works better with a Marine primary though, but it's still a good combination.

Last but not least it also opens up a lot of cool background and theme doors with how you tie the two armies together

[Lord Commander Scrymgeour]

The devastation of a Death company squad deep striking to rescue imperial guard is hillarious, watch and laugh as your opponent who was previously trying to deal with hidden manticores suddenly find berserk vampire angels in his face

[Lord_Urbonov]

The above post does bring a related question to mind.

 

If I keep to my plan to pair marines with mostly guard tanks/artillery, is there a particular chapter that would perhaps work better than others?

 

Would sentinels of terra be a good fit? If I'm using a lot of guard tanks/artillery, my foes would likely be trying to get in close, so Close Ranged Bolter drill could be very effective at either discouraging them and/or finsighing off survivors of my bigger guns. Also would keep costs down by giving regular tactics a free boost.

 

While using assaulty marines to compensate for lack of guard close combat prowess would seem logical, I worry about my marines charging forward and getting in the way of my guns or having wyvern or other artillery scatter on to them. Keeping the marines close to my slowly advancing tanks as a solid line of iron seems to make sense to me.

 

 

p.s. I'm also starting to ponder possible Ordo Xenos inqusitor with lvl 1 psyker to get prescience, a conversion beamer (and maybe some jokero) to hang back by my artillery for additional flavour if I can scrounge the points. Thoughts?

[minigun762]

If you're taking primarily Tac Squads to absorb charges and protect your big guns, I'd consider Salamanders.

 

Flamer makes for a cheap overwatch tool and a master crafted melta bomb or power weapon would boost your close combat threat

[MagicMan]

Plus, Salamanders + Steel Legion would make for an awesome fluffy Armageddon force...

 

 

Just saying. ;)

[Garath]

  While I do like the fluffy side of the game and am all for it - choosing a chapter to go with IG is perhaps the wrong way of looking at it.

 

  Id rather look at it this way:   I have a SM chapter (and that assumes You've already picked one) .  Which IG units do I use to support it?  

 

  I'll give you an example,  but I really don't want to patronise in any way.

 

  My chapter are Dark angles. Specifically for my deathwing (1st company ,terminators only)  I will run a small IG tank secondary attachment.  It will include HQ of 2 LR Exterminator driven by Pask+ Executioner .  Troops will be 10 veterans in a chimera.

 

  So my list will be :

 

  Belial

  Librarian with a bike and  Power Field Generator

 

  2 Land raiders with 5 terminators in each  

 

  IG

  HQ  Pask in Extermiantor + sidekick Exectioner

 

  Troops

  Chimera with 10 Veterans

 

   4 Vechicles with front AV 14 ,most protected by  4++ from PFG 

 

  Lawnmowner  

[tdemayo]

I think for a Space Marine primary detatchment, a guard infantry platoon looks really tastey. You can have multiple small squads and/or a big one of 30-50. Excellent for cheap supporting fire and for holding the backfield. A squad of tanks of your choice also seems like fun. Russes are much scarier than our own rather lackluster predators.

[Lord_Urbonov]

  While I do like the fluffy side of the game and am all for it - choosing a chapter to go with IG is perhaps the wrong way of looking at it.

 

  Id rather look at it this way:   I have a SM chapter (and that assumes You've already picked one) .  Which IG units do I use to support it?  

 

The way i'm looking at it is: I want to make an tank/artillery heavy guard list, what chapter of marines could best support this as an allied detachment?

 

The reason I was trying to decide on a specific chapter comes down to the chapter special rules.

 

For example, forgeworld gives us chapter tactics for the Raptors chapter, which allows their basic marines, if they didn't move, to use their bolters, bolt pistols, and bolter part of combi weapons, as a heavy 1 weapon with rending.

 

A lot of chapter tactics revolve around units getting moved around in the forge org chart, or giving flavorful elites special rules. This doesn't do much for me if I'm using the marines as allies, as I don't want to spend a bunch of points on them. I want to take a chapter that gets me basic marines with a useful special rule.

 

I've envisioned taking apretty bare boned allied marine group, like 2 units of ten tactical marines and a HQ character. This is so I can keep most of my points for my lovely guard tanks, but I still want the most bang for my buck, so Iwant to find a chapter who's chapter tactics not only are cheap to take advantage of (the raptors and their free heavy rending basic bolters)but may also synergize with supporting an slow advancing armoured advance.

 

Does this make any sense? So far, I've been looking for a chapter that gives a buff to basic marine shooting, and the best i've found so far is sentinels of terra with their close bolter drill, and the Raptors with their heavy rending bolters.

[minigun762]

With that in mind,my first thought is IH in Rhinos or Razorbacks. Durable marines in durable transports. Adds to armor saturation and provides cover and assault buffers for the IG tanks.

[incinerator950]

I was thinking of doing the same thing with Plague Marines in upgunned Rhinobacks, ironically.  This is supposed to be a while from now, but I'm paying close attention here to help me later.

[tdemayo]

How about Ultramarines? Tactical reroll is nice. Devastator does effect the heavy weapons in tac squads iirc, and Assault might let you countercharge. Probably not optimal, but might be interesting.

 

You might consider Raven Guard. I have found scout to be really useful for tac squads. The redeployment or advance move is quite awesome.

[Lord_Urbonov]

How about Ultramarines? Tactical reroll is nice. Devastator does effect the heavy weapons in tac squads iirc, and Assault might let you countercharge. Probably not optimal, but might be interesting.

 

You might consider Raven Guard. I have found scout to be really useful for tac squads. The redeployment or advance move is quite awesome.

 

I'm actually taking a second look at the ultramarines trait now. While it's nothing super flashy, i like the flexibility of it.

 

Ravenguard hold a special spot in my heart, but I'm still not sure if its' a good fit. The redeployment is nice, but as i mentioned before, with all the pie plates being flung around by my guard tanks (assuming I don't go all punisher, vanquisher, or exterminator) , getting my troops up close to the enemy, possibly getting hit by my own guns, or allowing the enemy to escape shooting by charging into melee, may not be the best fit.

[Garath]

....The folowing is not my original idea- i got it from reading a certain Nova open report.  And it's all good stuff.

 

  The idea is to combine the cheap plentyfull IG infantry with SM heroes. Synergy is what we are looking for,and all the best combinations of rules that interact when combining the two codecies.

 

  To be more specific...take White scars CT

 

  50 guardsman,5 sarges with power axes led by Khan. I know it looks silly but the combo does work in a way unseen at first glance.

  Since the unit can have Monster hunter at will , so will Khan joining it.  Furthermore, Khan has I 5 and Hit and run.

   That means we have a swarm of guardsman doing hit and run.  Someone trying to charge you?  Fine- do a zillion overwatch shots, then loose a seargent (or use Khan for his instant kill sword) and then hit and run at the end of the phase.

 

   Yes, I forgot -  they all have They shall know no fear too...

 

  Stuff like that.. or take a psyker and join another blob.

 

  It makes the game much simpler.  You have tanks that shoot well, a lot of cc meatshields that can exit combat anytime- and it's all dirt cheap.

 

  If you take SM as allies- you only have one HQ. Doesn't matter.  You can take a secont one - a techmarine.  He will also have Hit and run and can also bolster defenses.  Raising a cover save of a terrain piece stacks well with vechicle cammo for a solid 3+ cover with any terrain piece .

[Gideon999]

Agreed on the WS tactics.   They have so much tactical flexibility for mixed lists now its crazy.   If you want to keep them back to cover your tanks though, i think the basic IF tactics are a good choice.   I am not sure I would go sentinels though, since I like that the normal bolter drill works out to the weapons max range.   Meaning that your IG leafblowers can sit there and make sure nothing gets within doubletap range, and your bolter guys are that much more effective at all ranges.   

 

That said, without devastators you are only using half their rules.

 

Forgeworld could be the better choice here for sure.

 

 - Red Scorpions can get Feel no Pain in their tactical squads, which is better than Iron hands if you dont take marine vehicles.

 

 - Charcaradons would be evil counter charge units with easy access to a second close combat weapon and possible Rage (though not battle brothers)

 

 - Raptors for Heavy 1, Rending bolters as said above

 

 - Mantis warriors would also be a crazy countercharge ally with Move through cover, hammer of wrath and if they charge from cover they gain furious charge

 

So there are lots of cool options there to pour over.

[incinerator950]

What about supporting a Plague Marine force?  I got air support covered, and largely the hitormiss Mayhem pack to potentially ruin someone's day, but I don't have any tanky goodness in my army, specifically because I'm not thrilled on the Predator, and I've never cared for the Landraider.

[Frater Cornelius]

Armoured Battlegroup all the way. I used to play SW + ABG to get 3 LR to support my wolves. It worked like a charm. Tanks in ABG are more expensive since it hasn't been updated to 6ed codex yet, but it is offset by the fact that you can get an amazing HQ tank (Vanquisher with co-axial stubber and beast hunter shells for option ID blast) and troop Leman Russes without any tax.

[Gideon999]

Armoured Battlegroups are NUTS.   One of my buddies took a local tournament using one of those.  He tabled one of the most competitive players using a nid list in 2 turns.   

[Lord_Urbonov]

In regards to armoured battlegroups, I ma a little confused at this point. With the new codex out, is the list still legal? I mean, the executioner canon now has two different profiles depending on what army your using. And do armoured battlegroups just not have wyverns?

 

Basically my confusion boils down to: Does the release of the guard codex change anything for the battlegroup list found in imperial armour?

[incinerator950]

My assumption is its now outdated, you'd want to use the regular up-to-date codex.