[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[defl0]

10 tacs are good. I like them in a rhino. 2 scoring units for cheap. Solid for maelstrom missions. I usually deploy them as rear guard and objective handsets in my zone.

[Nusquam]

There's two ways i use them:

 

Midfield out on objectives to draw fire and provide overwatch for my forward units.

 

Or

 

Keep them hidden until my forward units like furies, seekers, mor deythan, etc show up. Then i run them onto objectives while everything else passers forward.

[Monkeychunks]

6 weeks without updates?! For shame, brothers.

 

How does the Legion work when operating without Decapitating Strike? It's such a strong option for us; beyond being an almost strictly-better Orbital Assault, it also plays right into our hands by providing a more reliable first turn and a better shot at nailing characters. It's also extremely cheap to get into with Alvarex being such good value.

However I'm concerned that it's so good as to make the other Rites a poor comparison. I doubt it's much fun to be on the receiving end of all-alpha-all-the-time and so I'd appreciate some input as to how you'd run other Rites, especially Pride and Angel's Wrath.

 

Pride seems like it would make good use of Veteran Tacticals, with Infiltrate allowing lots of pinpoint sniper Bolts exactly where you want them. Our LA rule really promotes Infantry and so a Rite that focuses on using them rather than Drop Pods seems a good idea. At the same time, Infiltrating without guaranteeing the first turn seems like playing with fire. Would you then go for an Outflank focus with them? It moves us away from the Turn 1 slaughterfest and instead into a Turn 2-3 ambush train, with the Veteran upgrades being partially paid for by lack of Drop Pods.

Say a firebase of Rapiers, Scorpii and Heavy Support Squads (With a whole 3 Heavy slots again!) to grind out a few kills at first, and then multiple squads of Flanking Veterans with Sniper upgrades.

 

Is there any merit in playing no Rites at all, and simply relying on massed Tacticals Infiltrating to the right cover and making firebases?

 

Decisions decisions...

[Tiger9gamer]

I have played my first true HH game and a few points I have found out:

 

Fleeting tactical squads are slippery bastards. When not in optimum firing positions or when I just did the fury of the legion attack I wasn't afraid to run them around. 

 

Flamer mor denath are cool, but I wasted them turn one when I could have used them better. I think they would be awesome against most things besides Gal gorbak.

 

I needed a lot more anti-tank.... My opponent had two vehicles I could not take down (possessed dread and sicaran) and my only anti-tank wwere 2 grav speeders that died by turn 2.

 

 

Still, I had a lot of fun and I really want to do more. I'm even getting a sicaran!

[SkimaskMohawk]

For my competitive RG list I had 2 javelins with hunter killers, 3 grav rappers (who get infiltrate) and a praevian with dark fire castellax who have tank hunters. All of these should work as good AT threats

[Hesh Kadesh]

How do you get Tank Hunters on the Praevian?

[1ncarnadine]

How do you get Tank Hunters on the Praevian?

 

He opted out of taking Legiones Astartes RG rules in exchange for it

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well seeing as it says "legion astartes special rule possessed by the praevian or one of the following" and Furious Charge/Stubborn are LA options, no the intent is not to be able only access the secondary rules if you have no legion rules yet.

 

I would say they need to fix the fact that you get infiltrate on them regardless of taking the RG trait or not when using RG, because that's some broken stuff there (that I'm still going to use however)

[Tiger9gamer]

Well seeing as it says "legion astartes special rule possessed by the praevian or one of the following" and Furious Charge/Stubborn are LA options, no the intent is not to be able only access the secondary rules if you have no legion rules yet. I would say they need to fix the fact that you get infiltrate on them regardless of taking the RG trait or not when using RG, because that's some broken stuff there (that I'm still going to use however)

 

 

That is kinda too much rule fixing for me to do, but thanks for the thought! I also think that my sicaran would be a great unit to add.

[SkimaskMohawk]

There's no rule fixing that needs to be done to make the unit work mechanically. Simply choose tank hunters and the praevian spreads infiltrate to the rest of the unit. Sicarans are nice, but they've only performed adequately for me. If you're using the Row I'd suggest a venator instead to really burn through armour and disable enemy return fire

[Tiger9gamer]

There's no rule fixing that needs to be done to make the unit work mechanically. Simply choose tank hunters and the praevian spreads infiltrate to the rest of the unit. Sicarans are nice, but they've only performed adequately for me. If you're using the Row I'd suggest a venator instead to really burn through armour and disable enemy return fire

 

 

Alright, thats a fair idea. I have to look at the preveian thing again anyways. besides I really like those bots.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The RG one is the best. Give him cameleoline, a Bolter and a boarding shield and you have stealthed, infiltrating, defensive grenaded, tank hunting robots

[Tiger9gamer]

Okay I double checked it and no he doesn't spread infiltrate, he just has it. there is no way to spread the special rule infiltrate like scout (unless you have a special rule that says you can like Issodon or the Master of Ambush rule) so he has to pick either or. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

infiltrate says "units with at least one model with this special rule"

 

The praevian isn't an IC so the whole issue of not being deployed that usually comes up when trying to attach someone with infiltrate to a unit isn't at play here.

 

And his entry clearly says it's one unit: "Master of Cybernetica: A single unit of either Castellax or Vorax class Battle-automata must be selected as part of the Legion Praevian unit (note that Battle-automata units selected in this fashion may not select the Paragon of Metal upgrade). This unit does not use up an additional Force Organisation slot and the Legion Praevian must be included as part of the unit even if it includes models of the Monstrous Creature type (while it is part of a unit of Monstrous Creatures, the Legion Praevian may not Go To Ground, voluntarily or otherwise). The Legion Praevian may not leave this unit"

[Hesh Kadesh]

Unfortunately, the Praevian is an Independent Character, but Narik Dreygur isn't.

 

As you have to deploy the Infiltrators last, (but it expressly allows you to join the squad), Infiltrate does nothing unless you take it on the squad (or deploy via Reserves allowing you to Outflank).

[xera32]

Unfortunately, the Praevian is an Independent Character, but Narik Dreygur isn't.

 

As you have to deploy the Infiltrators last, (but it expressly allows you to join the squad), Infiltrate does nothing unless you take it on the squad (or deploy via Reserves allowing you to Outflank).

 

It doesn't allow you to join the squad, he is literally forced to become a part of the squad. The difference is in the wording. "the Legion Praevian must be included as part of the unit even if it includes models of the Monstrous Creature type ... The Legion Praevian may not leave this unit." The Praevian doesn't join the unit, it is a part of the unit. And Narik not even having the IC rule shows that Praevians don't join units, but are part of them.

 

For almost all purposes the Praevian loses IC status as he can't leave the unit, and will count as part of a automata unit even when no automata are left (as you will normally leave a unit when they are destroyed, but are restricted from leaving the unit).

[Hesh Kadesh]

He maybe. But that doesn't preclude the rules for forcing Infiltrators to deploy last. You must deploy Infiltrators last as per 7th edition rules, but because the unit doesn't have Infiltrate unless it takes LA(RG), it can't infiltrate as it doesn't have the rule until the character is deployed.

[Tiger9gamer]

Fluff conondrums aside, has anyone tried the laser rapiers yet? if so how are they?

[depthcharge12]

Fluff conondrums aside, has anyone tried the laser rapiers yet? if so how are they?

I've used them, but not as RG.

 

They've actually done quite well and soak up an insane amount of firepower for their points cost. Stick them in cover and use them to block lanes of vehicle travel as they'll scare anything not a Spartan. They're also pretty good at sniping valuable 2+ save units when no tanks are present.

[defl0]

I've tried rapiers, grav cannons and the mortars. 

 

The grav are the ultimate early game spartan remover. The mortars trash light vehicles and hordes. The rapiers are in a weird spot. In one perspective they are great in that they threaten everything in the game from termies to tanks. And with the ability to often go first and infiltrate into side armor, you might even catch something without a cover save So you have a chance at popping heavy tanks. But you are betting on killing it with a pen hit. 

 

So it's a big gamble. It's not really even a high chance of killing something first turn... 

 

That said if you think of them as consistent damage that will be around for 6 turns, then you are thinking of them in the correct light.

 

The problem with that thinking is that Raven Guard armies usually are heavy in drop pods or infiltrating and are thus usually early/mid game hitters. So the rapier is usually not the right fit. Raven Guard don't play the game of attrition with consistent damage. Other legions are just plain better at that style of play.  

[Terminus]

He maybe. But that doesn't preclude the rules for forcing Infiltrators to deploy last. You must deploy Infiltrators last as per 7th edition rules, but because the unit doesn't have Infiltrate unless it takes LA(RG), it can't infiltrate as it doesn't have the rule until the character is deployed.

I would argue this is a meaningless technicality, when we have the precedent of Coils of the Hydra requiring Infiltrators, and you being able to pick Mutable Tactics: Infiltrate to fulfill that requirement, even though the order of operations is technically not correct for that.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I don't think an order of operations is a meaningless technicality at all, to be honest, especially when it's integral to the way that Infiltrators work. It's a very good point you raise though.

 

"Infantry squads that do not have either a Dedicated Transport, or the ability to infiltrate or Deep Strike may not be chosen as part of the force."

 

the ability to Infiltrate is gained via mutable tactics, which is part of the Legiones Astartes (Alpha Legion) special rule. All infantry in an Alpha Legion list have LA(AL) special rule, so all models have the ability to infiltrate.

 

How you interpret that as Alpha Legion always would have the ability to infiltrate, without it forcing them to is up to common sense. But, in regards to a unit being joined by a model with Infiltrate, they are much less nebulous.

 

But of course, you'll disagree.

[coloroutofspace]

Question for y'all: in a Decapitating Strike force led by Alvarex at 1850 pts, what would you rather take:

 

1) a single 20-man Despoiler squad (Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, CCW) in a Storm Eagle kitted with 2 TLLC and TLMM, which is around 555 pts, or

2) 2 10-man Despoilers (as above) in Pods, and that's 410 pts.?

 

Presuming the units arrive on turn 2, don't scatter and get counter-attack, all thanks to RoW plus Alvarex. Squads disembark, unleash hail of bolter shots, prepare for being charged by what's left of the enemy. I'm trying to weight all pros and cons of each option (to build a list eventually) and so far here's what I'm thinking:

 

Option 1 that's all eggs in one basket, with some anti-tank capability in exchange for 145 pts perhaps the ability to attach an Apothecary, and option 2 higher tax for the 20 troops, but 2 different targets for the enemy and more flexibility.

 

EDIT: by saying "some anti-tank" I mean the Storm Eagle will not reliably deal with a transport like a Land Raider on it's own the turn it arrives, so other arrangements have to be made.

Edited September 17, 2015 by coloroutofspace

[defl0]

Personally, I don't like either. For the same points you could take a 20 man tac squad with chaplain and just infiltrate them in cover with a cameololine. You can then FOTL and with a chaplain they are the cheapest S4 available in the game. Or move forward with Krack grenades. 

 

If you are going to splurge on transports take something with some teeth or keep it really cheap. 10 tacs in a drop pod or rhino is great for mission objectives.  

[coloroutofspace]

Personally, I don't like either. For the same points you could take a 20 man tac squad with chaplain and just infiltrate them in cover with a cameololine. You can then FOTL and with a chaplain they are the cheapest S4 available in the game. Or move forward with Krack grenades. 

 

If you are going to splurge on transports take something with some teeth or keep it really cheap. 10 tacs in a drop pod or rhino is great for mission objectives.  

Yes, but a smart opponent could deny infiltrators a large area, whereas with pods and flyers you can insert your guys next to their preferred target/objective, hence my question.