[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[Hesh Kadesh]

Infiltrate is rarely for getting close. Certain exceotions exist, like jamming 20 Grav Breachers in your opponents grill, but mostly? It is something that lets your scoring transports deploy in cover or get site lines on your rapiers.

 

Denying infiltrate isn't the tactic available with any real ease in 30k, or of any actual need to do so, either.

 

Drop pods are win, typhons are win, rerolling successful reserve rolls are awesome, fleet is awesome on scoring units, infiltrating grav rapiers to get best Los is awesome. Dreadclaw assault squads are awesome.

 

RG have it all. They win.

[defl0]

A smart opponent can also bubble wrap to protect from deepstrike and footprint block your fliers.... Which is actually considerably more effective than blocking infiltrators. Especially infiltrators with cameololine (usually a 3+ cover) that are your cheapest per point marine you can field. 

 

But that's not really the point I'm making. (Although we can chat about that too if you want). 

 

My point is despoiler squads are really not that powerful without character backup, and even then you are better off putting harder hitting squads in the pods or transports. 

 

So why build your list around that concept? It's a bad tactic to even start with. 

 

Instead, use a concept of synergy that works. 

 

Like a pod of seekers with meltas and an infiltrated 20 man despoiler squad with a chappy. Seekers pop a transport, tacs clean up the troops. Or even better, seekers in a pod, mor deytahn flamers in a rhino, big tac and shappy on foot. 

 

Using your tacs for more than scoring is usually how I make my RG lists considerably more powerful. 

 

20 tacs in a strom eagle is just not a strong use of points IMO

[coloroutofspace]

Denying infiltrate isn't the tactic available with any real ease in 30k, or of any actual need to do so, either.

Forgive me for not mentioning this - it's rather a regular 40k environment with guys I play with. Only a handful have Heresy-era lists. But still infiltrators aren't wide-spread.

 

A smart opponent can also bubble wrap to protect from deepstrike and footprint block your fliers.... Which is actually considerably more effective than blocking infiltrators. Especially infiltrators with cameololine (usually a 3+ cover) that are your cheapest per point marine you can field. 

 

But that's not really the point I'm making. (Although we can chat about that too if you want). 

 

My point is despoiler squads are really not that powerful without character backup, and even then you are better off putting harder hitting squads in the pods or transports. 

 

So why build your list around that concept? It's a bad tactic to even start with. 

 

Instead, use a concept of synergy that works. 

 

Like a pod of seekers with meltas and an infiltrated 20 man despoiler squad with a chappy. Seekers pop a transport, tacs clean up the troops. Or even better, seekers in a pod, mor deytahn flamers in a rhino, big tac and shappy on foot. 

 

Using your tacs for more than scoring is usually how I make my RG lists considerably more powerful. 

 

20 tacs in a strom eagle is just not a strong use of points IMO

All true, and the last bit is what I wanted to hear :)

 

Of course I'm not thinking of building a list based on Tacticals, but adding CCWs isn't a waste of points with counter-attack, it's more of a deterrent and it makes a squad more flexible. Although I do think Seekers are a bit overrated or perhaps overpriced for what they do. Mor Deythan's a different story.

 

Also I'm thinking of using a Chainfist/dual Graviton Dread and Graviton Speeders to open up transports, but that's not decided yet.

[defl0]

Honestly, the new drop formation for marines in 40k is so raven guard, so fun and so strong I would just use that.

 

My general opinion is that 40k is just stronger. For example dealing with Eldar is a totally different mind set. In general, this isn't the right tactic thread for you.

 

That said, the successful lists I've played against 40k usually are biluilt around inflating bots, melta drop pods and fire raptors. Even then we don't have the point efficiency to deal with Jet bikes, wraithkinghts and deap striking d scythes...

Honestly, the new drop formation for marines in 40k is so raven guard, so fun and so strong I would just use that.

 

My general opinion is that 40k is just stronger. For example dealing with Eldar is a totally different mind set. In general, this isn't the right tactic thread for you.

 

That said, the successful lists I've played against 40k usually are biluilt around inflating bots, melta drop pods and fire raptors. Even then we don't have the point efficiency to deal with Jet bikes, wraithkinghts and deap striking d scythes...

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well the drop element of it is raven guard...sadly almost every other chapter uses it better. Pretty much any 40k marine list gets better being *not* raven guard; I go for raptors trait every time for he-who-is-don. The legion list give me exactly what I want out of RG; alpha strike and msu that keeps the flavor of the 4th and 5th ed books. I only use the chapter tactics for a fun game with korvidae and even less than before after the second round of nerfing the trait too. Shrike is a disgrace, I use him as the seargent for my vanguard (another nerfed unit) or dark furies.

 

 

[GreyCrow]

Just out of curiosity, and perhaps this has been said before : Are Raven Guard Jump Marines able to Infiltrate in 30k ? Since they are Infantry that have the Jump type. I wasn't sure before but after talking about it with a guy it would seem perfectly acceptable for them to do so...

 

It would make lists using Jump Marines as troops perfectly viable.

Edited September 21, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Hesh Kadesh]

That there is a specific notation seperating Jump Infantry from Infantry, no.

[GreyCrow]

Well, the logic I had was that Jump Infantry units would get both benefits, being Infantry (from the BRB) and being Jump Infantry for Furious Assault.

[Caillum]

Forgeworld have already ruled that they don't get Infilitrate, only Furious Charge. Wish that wasn't the case...

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's not like we need it, we already excel at our role, arguably even better than AL when it comes to alpha strike (though they have a better TAC list). If we could out assault WE with infiltrating, fleeting and furious charging jump pack units on top of the withering alpha strike and the amount of synergy it brings would be a bit much (RIP 5th ed list).

 

Anyone have any thoughts on the command Rhino for more reserve manipulation? Honestly I remember looking at it and thinking that I needed to come back later, but never did...

[GreyCrow]

Forgeworld have already ruled that they don't get Infilitrate, only Furious Charge. Wish that wasn't the case...

 

Right, thanks for pointing that out ;)

[Caillum]

Anyone have any thoughts on the command Rhino for more reserve manipulation? Honestly I remember looking at it and thinking that I needed to come back later, but never did...

I reckon the Damocles is pretty awesome!

- most Rites of War (including Decapitation Strike) only allow 1 Consul (or 1 aside from specific examples). The Damocles isn't one, so it fits well as the 3rd HQ,

- it's likely you're already running a Drop Pod Assault or reserves-heavy list,

- it synergises with Maun for accurate Deep Strike locations across the board,

- it can do it's bombardment 1st Turn (with Maun's vox LoS) for even more alpha strike!

- Reserves manipulation!

 

It's also a good option for Night Lords Terror Assault, with their access to multiple Deep Strikers. :)

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea honestly I think my biggest worry was what I'd need to cut out of a 2000 to get it in, maybe a sniper deythan squad. Actually with the castellax point hike it'd work out since I'll need the points free anyways

[coloroutofspace]

Honestly, the new drop formation for marines in 40k is so raven guard, so fun and so strong I would just use that.

 

My general opinion is that 40k is just stronger. For example dealing with Eldar is a totally different mind set. In general, this isn't the right tactic thread for you.

40k SM are a different story altogether. There are certain reasons I'd rather stick with Heresy-era Astartes and I think 40k lists are gravitating towards absurd.

 

Well the drop element of it is raven guard...sadly almost every other chapter uses it better. Pretty much any 40k marine list gets better being *not* raven guard.

Whereas in Heresy crunch seems to get along with fluff.

 

 

I reckon the Damocles is pretty awesome!

- most Rites of War (including Decapitation Strike) only allow 1 Consul (or 1 aside from specific examples). The Damocles isn't one, so it fits well as the 3rd HQ,

- it's likely you're already running a Drop Pod Assault or reserves-heavy list,

- it synergises with Maun for accurate Deep Strike locations across the board,

- it can do it's bombardment 1st Turn (with Maun's vox LoS) for even more alpha strike!

- Reserves manipulation!

 

It's also a good option for Night Lords Terror Assault, with their access to multiple Deep Strikers.

 

I'd only be worried about the survivability of that Rhino in a list that lacks other tanks. Otherwise it fits pretty well :) This or an infiltrating, scouting Land Raider Proteus...

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think the damocles takes it over the proteus for a number of reasons

 

1. Points: its just far cheaper 

2. Synergy: The deepstrike bubble as well as the reserve part works really well with decapitation strike and Maun

3. Slots: if you run Decapitation Strike then you're limited to 1 Heavy (or you can dedicate it to seekers but it gets even more expensive), while the damocles is HQ. I personally always have a spare HQ slot as I tend to run more MSU lists so I don't have to worry about losing an important slot

[depthcharge12]

I do have to say, from an armchair general perspective, that the RG right now is probably in the top 3 most competitive legions at the moment. The only 30k force I've seen them have trouble with is the Mechanicus due to a variety of reasons including the ability for Thallax to deny infiltrators in a large bubble.

 

I'd be highly interested in seeing a RG vs AL game due to them both being alpha strike lists, therefore they don't get the same type of effect they'd have on another legion.

[GreyCrow]

Hey guys, out of curiosity, I wanted to have your opinion on two things :)

 

1. Have you guys tried Mor Deythan with Volkite Chargers ? Obviously less Alpha Strike Potential than the Flamers, but a tad more range to play with.

 

2. How do you usually go about anti-tank in Raven Guard lists ?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well, the problem is that the volkites don't ignore cover. Hitting is easy, but they'll still get a lot of saves. For a one shot gimmick thing, flamers have a lot more potential. For anti armour I run a praevian with dark fire castellax, 3 graviton cannons, and 2 separate javelins with mm, cyclones and Hunter killers. The javelins deepstrike off maun or the damocles for side armour. I also have combi meltas on sarges as well as melta bombs

[defl0]

The volume you can get with volkites ends up being close to Wray you can do with flamers when models are spaced. But flamers definitely have a higher potential.

 

That said volkites are much better against a single model or a unit with less models.

 

I've proxied them against Castellax with good results.

 

But again flamers are just guaranteed kills which is nice for tournament lists.

 

As for tank hunting. It's a matter of preference. I run 6 graviton canons, 2 units if 5 mordeythan in rhinos and a 20 man tac squad with ccws with a chaplain as my base.

 

The gravs and re roll to hit krack tends to kill everything short of kinghts.

[GreyCrow]

Oh defl0, that's a smart use of the Mor Deythan's abilities Due to the abundance of armoured ceramite, aren't meltas not really worth it ?

 

@Mohawk : Yeah, that's what I figured as well... Rending Flamers is super good...

 

Is the Primarch good at busting tanks ? I figured he would be due to the +3 to pen, but no empirical evidence...

Edited September 22, 2015 by GreyCrow

[defl0]

I think people overstate the ceremite situation with hours heresy.

 

Yes. You need a spartan plan. But in general, melta still is ap1 and oblits t4.

 

I sometimes mix melta's with my mor deythan. I also like combination melta on my infiltrating scouting rhinos us some lists.

 

I like melta in drop pod squad and and with termis. Only rarely is there nothing to kill...

 

Just don't take All melta s :)

[SkimaskMohawk]

I agree with mixing meltas in with your flamers for mor deythen as the flamers tend to roast what you're shooting at anyways and you usually don't need the full amount. I'm not big on the concept of 20 man squads for RG though as they tend to be point sinks and priority targets for the big guns as well as being harder to use infiltrate for.

 

For spartan defense I recommend grav to put pressure on them or a lightning, possibly a medusa or three if you're not too worried about AA.

 

The primarch can be used for pretty much anything you want. IMO he's the best because hes so versatile, but that comes with a high skill floor to compnesate for his potential. He force multiplies with the auto-6, he disrupts enemy deepstriking, he's very hard to kill with shooting, very fast and shreds pretty much everything that isn't a LoW, can't be locked down at all, can provide AA and anti-FMC with his vector strike and moderate tank busting with his total of +4 to the roll. People like to say he's under powered because he can't face tank like horus, mortarion, vulcan etc... or man fight like them, but if you use him that way then you're absolutely not using him properly. TLDR: rewards tactical play more than any other character.

 

@depth I somehow missed this the first time. Mech can be tricky because of how good they are in general vs legions, but you just need to tool to fighting mech instead of marines and you'll be good to go (mor deythan with snipers, grav, praevians, etc...).

 

As for alpha legion, itll really come down to who's better at the infiltrating and scouting game. Me and my group play with choosing warlord traits so Master of ambush is used a lot, it really becomes its own meta-game of placing and counter placing to deny and secure the best spots. If AL can get in the RG deployment with a Dynat force they can do a lot of damage, however drop pods > infiltrate (especially when you can stay in them) and RG do pods the best. Basically if RG screw up deployment it'll be their game to lose

[GreyCrow]

Hmm yeah, so maybe a Dreadnought/Contemptor with Power Fist/Chain Fist and a Grav Gun on both Fists. But yeah, for the other anti-tanks, meltas sound good indeed.

 

I like your breakdown of Corax's abilities... He looks really really fun from the looks of it :D

[coloroutofspace]

As for anti-tank I always thought, no matter the Legion, that Chainfists and Meltabombs are the way to go. Back in the early 90s GW released... OK, nostalgia aside. But with the old models and new rules available, I'd say, take a look at Speeders and Dreads (old, "Castraferrum', regular) with Graviton. Plus Chainfists on Dreads. Plus Meltabombs on whatever can take it. Skyhunters, Assault Bikes, and so on. You can get some reliable AT in a mechanized list, but with RG you're not going to do that for obvious reasons, namely 1 HS slot.

 

Edit: I'm biased because of 1500/1850 pts I'm usually playing. So no LoW, no Primarchs here. Not that I'm complaining.

Edited September 23, 2015 by coloroutofspace

[SkimaskMohawk]

Take grav cannons. 3 per elite slot, ranged, always effective against any armour, 5" blast.

 

Javelins are also amazing for their points: 2 twinlinked Krak missiles, multi melta and 2 hunter killers for less than 100 and able to fire them all off the deepstrike. Also not a heavy support choice