[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[Caillum]

Yeah, I'm unsure on it too. Could play it either way really, but I think I'm leaning towards your opinion Nusquam.

[Terminus]

Aren't Tactical squads, Assault squads, and Breacher squads all compulsory troop choices?  If the intent was to use all three for scouts, why would they need to call that out in the limitations where they say the third compulsory choice must be filled with Recon marines?

 

If the intent is to have three recon squads, then this rite sucks like most of the others.  Maybe the LACAL book will clarify this, and also make recon squads like 100 points with camo cloaks and melta-bombs included.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Terminus

[SkimaskMohawk]

Tacticals, Breachers and Assaults aren't Compulsory, otherwise every list would need to have them in it. They're simply the only Troops without the Support rule pre-RoW

[Nusquam]

I think it's a case of not having standardized wording. Terror Assault says Terror Squads 'must' be taken as compulsory. Which compared to this does make it seem like Recons are just added. Then, like I said before, the other RoW that deals with a Support Squad goes out of it's way to word it so they(Recons squads in this case) lose Support Squad(which ReCo recons still have) and may be taken as optional troops.

 

It's a bit of a mess. Really, it could go either way. For RG I can see it either way too since all Tacs are cross trained as Recons. Not so much for other legions. Best off asking FW.

[defl0]

I'm of the opinion you have to take 3 compulsory troop units. 1 must be a recon squad. The other two can be recon or anything else that can be taken as compulsory.

[defl0]

So the Recon ROW: 

 

I finally had sometime to really sit down and think about it. 

 

First off, the real tax is that you have to take an extra recon squad. It's not a horrible tax, as 5 guys with melta bombs ans shot guns is actually a pretty good little squad, but it does eat up some point that might have been used for other stuff. It's only a 150 pts tax though. 

 

Plus, it basically gives your entire army a 2+ cover save on the first turn if you take all scouts and infiltrators. So this means you likely get to go first and alpha strike, then take very little return damage and strike again at close to full force. If you think about list building from that perspective, it start seeming equal if not more powerful than decapitating strike. 

 

Compared to decapitating strike it has a couple advantages and disadvantages as well. First off, you lose a heavy slot that can start on the table, which if you are going for the alpha strike list, can be a fairly big deal. This depends on your list though. If you alpha strike is composed of a typhon, rapier grav cannons and infiltrating special weapon squads of some type (mor deytan, seekers, etc) than this isn't a hit at all. 

 

It also opens up some interesting opportunities, like an alpha strike list, with maun, that knocks out anti air units first turn and then brings is 3 fire raptors and a lightning, on re rollable reserve rolls, to run around unmolested. 

 

The other interesting synergy is that it rewards units units that infiltrate or scout with shrouding. In RG, that's almost everything, but for things that don't get infiltrate like bikes or jump packs in RG you have units like Vigiliators or land raiders to give scout. So you can do cool things like vigilator with a jump pack scouts a unit of dark fury or assault marines with melta bombs forward, which gives them scout, and sets them up for a turn 2 charge. So short of termies, you can prettymuch figure out how to boost everything in the army with a 2+ save first turn. 

 

It also gives a big bump to outriders, which would normally be overlooked as overpriced. They come with scout standard. The bikes also become a very good character delivery squad, which is great with forgelords with rad grenades matched with all those power axes with furious charge. Plus it stacks with turbo boost for a 2+ out in the open. 

 

The other interesting unit is a praevian with castellax.  Sure it just went up in price, but add a 2+ save of them first turn and they become much nastier. 

 

So it's similar to decapitating strike but better with more resilience. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

You lose Drop Pods.

 

It's worse. :)

[defl0]

Yeah, but Drop pods just got huge nerfs with the last FAQ and Book V

 

1. You can't stay in them anymore and shoot out of them. 

2. They don't contest objectives.

3. Kill points became much more of a focus for the standard missions. 

 

At this point, I always choose infiltrating rhinos over drop pods. Decap strike and recon are really set up for alpha strike. Especially with Maun. A rhino on the table is basically a non scatter pod that always comes in turn one. Your risk is getting seized on 13% of the time... and even then, a Rhino gets a 2+ save if you infiltrate it in cover. That's a lot better odds than what you get against intercept. 

 

Plus Rhinos can:

 

1. contest objectives

2. can tank shock

3. can have real guns on them

4. can keep troops in them

5. can make troops mobile later in the game

6. can block LOS

7. can let you target specific models you want to kill

8. can choose to out flank

 

"I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" Mugatu

[SkimaskMohawk]

Dude you went from never contesting in 6th (when the game released and built for) to being able to contest until Conquest, which was a year ago now. This isn't anything new.

Edited February 18, 2016 by SkimaskMohawk

[defl0]

If you played by the Forgeworld FAQ, which superseded age of darkness rules, the scoring was handled by pure 7th ed rules, so yes they did. I know a lot of people chose to play by pure age of Darkness rules from a scoring perspective but all the major tournies In US I played in over the last year or two didn't play that way. 

 

But let's not dwell on the past, and focus on the current rules ;)

 

The important fact: 

 

- Immobile vehicles DO NOT contest objectives and mobile vehicle DO. 

 

It's hugely important! So almost everything acts as a scoring unit from a denial perspective, and drop pods are one of the rare units that do not. 

 

So yes. It's a major point that should be considered if you are going to say decapitating strike is categorically BETTER than the recon ROW just because drop pods. 

 

 

A least for me, HH5 shelved my pods. I only use them when I'm trying to make lists with delayed timing. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

So, if we take it;

 

Praetor, Master-crafted Thunder Hammer, Jump Pack, Boarding Shield, Digital Weapons (to use the Captain Korvydae model, throw on a Boarding Shield)

Vigilator, Jump Pack, Power Axe

Vigilator, Jump Pack, Power Axe

 

Mor Deythan, Rhino

Mor Deythan, Rhino

Quad Mortar Battery, 3x Mortars

Quad Mortar Battery, 3x Mortars

 

Tac Squad, Nuncio, Rhino

Tac Squad, Nuncio, Rhino

Recon Squad, Meltabombs, Cameleoline, Nuncio

 

Dark Fury Squad

Dark Fury Squad

Dreadclaw

 

Leviathan Dreadnought, DDP

Leviathan Dreadnought, DDP

Deredeo, Plasma

 

Ponts are obviously in question, though XD.

[SkimaskMohawk]

If you played by the Forgeworld FAQ, which superseded age of darkness rules, the scoring was handled by pure 7th ed rules, so yes they did.

 

That is objectively wrong. I still have that version of the FAQ and it talks about Implacable Advance and that it follows the rules for Age of Darkness games (30k vs. 30k)), but if you were playing against non-Age of Darkness forces using Battleforged armies (30k vs. 40k) you gained Objective Secured on units with Implacable Advance.

 

 

I know a lot of people chose to play by pure age of Darkness rules from a scoring perspective but all the major tournies In US I played in over the last year or two didn't play that way. 

 

What does that have to do with how a rule actually functions? It's like saying you can target Invisible units with Blast and Template weapons because ITC format plays it like that. Tournament format changes in America don't mean anything on an international board talking about tactics, you need to use the actual rules and FAQs.

 

As for pods vs. rhinos or really Decap vs. ReCo, they're both immensely strong with raven guard, with Decap being better if your opponent is packing anything that ignores cover en masse and the true turn 1 alpha strike while ReCo is better for an overwhelming turn 2 push. Hesh's list looks pretty filthy in particular :P

[defl0]

@Hesh

 

Cool. Love it! What's that 2Kish? 

 

You could do something alpha strike like you would normally do with Decap strike 

 

Maun w. camo

Vigilator, Jump Pack, Power Axe

3 x recon with melta bombs & shot guns

2 X 5 Mor deythan, 5 combi flamers, rhino, dozer blades

2 X 3 grav cannon rapiers

10 Dark fury 

1 typhon

 

or with hvy air support 

 

Maun w. camo

3 x recon with melta bombs & shot guns

2 X 5 Mor deythan, 5 combi flamers, rhino, dozer blades

2 X 2 grav cannon rapiers

3 fire raptors with ACs

 

or a funky assault list @ 1850

 

Praetor w. jetbike  goodies

Forgelord w. jetbike, rad + goodies

10 Outriders w. MBs, 4 p axes

 

Jump Pack Vigilator, goodies

10 Dark Fury squad

 

Chaplain, goodies

20 tacs with extra CCWs and tooled up Sgt

 

2 X 5 recons w. melta bombs 

[Hesh Kadesh]

At a guess, 2.5K+, maybe nearer 3. ~180 on the Praetor, 120 on the Vigi's each, 175 on the Dark Fury's each, 370 or so on the Leviathans, 250 on the Deredeo, 195 on the troops, 300 on the Mor Deythan, 180 on the Quad Mortars, 100 on the Dreadclaw.

[Lord Blackwood]

there arent any grav rapiers in that list  ,  need ALL the grav 

Funnily enough I am now sold on grav weapons as the superior anti armor its time to pester WLK into buying a bunch of them for his ravenguard 

Edited February 19, 2016 by Bladewolf

[defl0]

Lol. Everyone eventually comes around to grav;)

 

They would be good in both these ROWs.

[Terminus]

You lose Drop Pods.

 

It's worse.

Do you? Immobile doesn't mean immobile, does it? :)

[Nusquam]

So I played against the new IW Ironfire RoW. It went horribly. Medusas and Phosphex Rapier without scatter on turn two and on deleted entire squads each turn. Then Iron Havocs and a Fire Raptor kept the skies clean. The Rapiers also had shatter shells, a MoS, and the Havocs had an augury scanner effect too. My Contemptor in a pod died on my first turn. IT was Dawn of War/Blood Feud and I needed to close in in order to get points. He had the rapiers and medusas in the center so they had range everywhere and had 4 tacs in rhinos that just blitzed me and he effectively 'rode the ironfire' all the way home. One round of phosphex put 72 wounds on my destroyers for example.

 

A few thoughts on it:

 

If I brought my typhon I could probably had deleted his rapiers by turn two and been in a good place. Fighting against IW I'll find it hard to not bring to it blow up their gunline.

 

Darkfire Castellax from an infiltrated Praevian would have been great too. 60" would have picked off carriers while being outside phosphex range and with a chance to blind them, and then pick off the rhinos.

 

Even a lone sicaran to pop the rhinos to hamstring the tacs and prevent the scatter reduction would have been good.

 

Probably should have landed the dread on my back line so he could rush out and intercept the tacs as well. That's probably the only thing I could have done better during the game.

 

Now for a thought I had on the way home. Big outrider squad, ReCo, Corax in the outriders. Scout up, 2+ jink. If you go first separate Corax so he stays behind his veil. Then turn two deliver him to wherever you want.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I guess that book 6 is technically out today as of 30 minutes, but I'm genuinely confused how people are playing games using the new RoWs and Legion stuff before release. I haven't been able to find an online copy or complete version of the rules; even the rapier page from what I saw was cut off for its FOC slot. There's enogh important information in those two books that you can't just cherry pick the things you happened to see 

[Nusquam]

Its just testing out what we've seen and heard about out of excitement. Books take time to come in and its fun to try new stuff in the mean time. Even if it ends up being totally wrong sometimes its fun to just throw dice around and talk about all the new ideas. No ones taking it to events and i doubt anyone isnt running it by groups first.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Just wondering Nusquam, what was your list? It sounds like it was a pretty brutal game.

[Nusquam]

I mashed together all my new stuff(the flyers, destroyers, rapiers, dark furies). Not optimized sure, but I didn't expect full-tilt ironfire either.

Maun

 

Siege Breaker

 

3x Phosphex rapiers

 

cortus in pod

 

destroyers with packs and x2 launchers

 

9 Mor Deythan in rhino

 

2x10 tacs with vex/vox

 

xiphon

 

lightning, krakens, TH, SR

 

8x Dark Furies

 

Phosphex rapiers did well until a Havoc sarge with void artificer armor tanked 30+hits, rerollable 2+ saves are frustrating. Dark Furies did a clandestine deepstrike below the rapiers, and the chooser tanked a fire raptor on his 2+, to stay in min range, but he had that beefy warsmith character so he detached from the rapiers and cut them down(which was smart on his part). I managed to kraken and xiphon his medusas. Cortus died from interceptor turn one, i deployed him too aggressively. Destroyers died horribly to his phosphex, then my first tac, then my second.

 

Mor Deythan tried to go up the flank but got boxed in by rhinos so all they did was krak a rhino. The Siege Breaker was with them and he tanked 36 phosphex hits from the rapiers before going down. They just had no good target. I might have been able to clip the havocs but all that would have done was give him two VPs for the rhino+mor deythan to my 1 for the havocs. So I tried to bait in some of his tacs to I could blow their rhinos and strike them but it didnt work out.

 

Then Maun tanked a bunch of phosphex before dying. I just had nothing to reliably take out his rapiers that had the 4+ cover. Even if I deepstruck the destroyers they may have dealt 1 wound before folding. Artillery wins wars all right.

 

I keep going back to the typhon, but it feels like the easy way out. Maybe the Corax+Outrider tactic. A big unit of shrouded outriders would have taken a lot of hits and performed much better than the Destroyers. Then drop the furies+cortus for Corax.

 

His list was fully loaded for ironfire and he was a competent player.

Edit: Actually I forgot Whirlwind Scorpius existed. 48" d3+1 krak shots would have let me snipe out his crew and rhinos...

Edited February 19, 2016 by Nusquam

[MorgothNL]

 

Edit: Actually I forgot Whirlwind Scorpius existed. 48" d3+1 krak shots would have let me snipe out his crew and rhinos...

 

Though it would start getting the D3+1 from T3 earliest. It has to start in reserve, and can't have moved for the extra shots. So thats T3 before you would start unleashing those shots (by which time it would have been too late in the game you describe?) 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Plasma Deredeos or Grav Leviathans in Pods can perform the same job from turn 1. Ignores cover in the latter.

 

Obviously a shed load more expensive, though

[TompiQ]

Indeed, I think that the only HS units that belong in a Recon RoW force are those that already start in reserve. The Fire Raptor and Leviathan in pod are prime examples.

 

One thing I'm considering is allying in a Malcador Infernus with Chem munitions through my Auxilia detachment. Put a tank commander in him for scout, and then outflank the tank to burninate any nasty backfield units turn two (using reserve manipulation to "guarantee" it). 12" move from either side, then a Hellstorm torrent with 18" range. Ap2 with 2+ poison.

 

Overall the recon RoW seems fit for delivering a turn 2 punch, using deep striking or outflanking reserves while surviving turn 1 due to shrouded. If you want a turn 1 alpha strike you're better suited going Decap strike.