[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea going to correct you there crow. You seem to think I play a certain way based on my arguments, but they're literally just hypothetical arguments to contrast your ideas of assault marines. I never run tacs in rhinos; always in pods, meaning I don't have a static battle line. When talking about the analysis of AMs I was really comparing them to furies as they're directly comparable in role and function.

[GreyCrow]

@Nusquam : I think it's not only a points issue that prevents them from being played I'm afraid.  Most people jsut flat out refuse to play the Assault Marines in the ways they are good at because the players try to fulfil their little "Haha I jump on you and there's nothing you can do about it !" with the Deep Strike. If they could Deep Strike into assault directly they would. Another thing is that Tacticals are so engrained in people's mind as the basic troop since the good old days that it's hard to change mentalities about that

Also, Games does a poor marketing job, because when people read "Assault Squad", they think "Chaaaaaarge !". It's okay that the World Eaters have a high casualty rate, because it looks like they won't ever lack new recruits

 

To be honest, I actually like the fact that nobody plays Assault Marines. When I kick their ass with lists with ASM as Troops, I look like a hipster 

 

@Skimask : You don't have a statis battle line, but you have static tactical squads that you commit to an area With the AM rather than the Tactical Squads, I don't have to commit to any place in particular because 3 Turns later I can be charging a unit on the other side of the table and there is no obstacle preventing me to do that except return fire

I do agree that the Dark Furies have a very good points differential when it comes to damage. But not for holding objectives obviously because they aren't Troops and lack Implacable Advance.

AM are the most mobile Troops over the multiple turns they are on the board, and that is indeed a virtue. Some people don't want/won't take advantage of that, and that's cool. But it's not because the unit sucks, it's because they just don't want

 

EDIT : By the way man, I didn't want to come off as argumentative. I was just thinking out loud to solve some ideas in list building. No disrespect meant !

Edited April 6, 2016 by GreyCrow

[Sircyn]

I'm finding this discussion fascinating, thanks guys.

 

I think a big reason why assault marines aren't seen much is the opportunity cost of not saving the points and taking a cheaper troops tax, then spending those points some where else.

 

I really like the idea that those points are spent on flexibility and reactivity. It's a completely different doctrine to pick a force full of units that can react well to their surroundings then apply them on a turn by turn basis. AM's, Veteran Squads, Mobile/Long Range fire support.

 

Personally I prefer the "Grand Battle" planning philosophy of working out as much as I can before even hitting the table then executing it with the specific niche tools I've chosen.Tactical Marines, Mor Deythan, Attack Bikes who all have one purpose and persue largely the same role each game.

 

I think the latter is best suited to the ruleset, focus fire from the most cost effective units against the right targets is how you win. I have seen this design doctrine split on the table top though, where some people prefer to have the tools to react as things happen witj generalists rather than impose their will from the outset with specialists.

 

It stems from the personality of the player, which is why I think people tend to be so certain there is only one correct way. I think my way is correct, but I'm going to force myself out of my comfort zone with White Scars and try the opposite approach to my norm to mix up my play experience.

[GreyCrow]

@Sircyn : I agree with your point, and I like the way you present the "Grand Battle" approach.

 

To be perfectly fair, I think that it is less effective to spend points in very diverse units than it is to find 2-3 units like you said and scale them up. For example, at 2000 points, one could technically field 30 Mor Deythans in Rhinos with various combis along with 30 Assault Marines, with the strategy of the Mor Deythans opening the way with their Sudden Strike for the Assault Marines to come later on (regular reserves, deep strike, etc depending on the current scenario).

Typically here, the Assault Marines aren't meant to do the most damage, while the Mor Deythans are there to carrry most of it, with a flexible approach between Alpha Strike and ambush tactics depending on the scenario and the enemy.

 

You can build flexibility in the doctrine, but it's units that must be flexible rather than unit combinations. Typically, the Ultramarines' Fulmentarus for example can be designed to be super flexible, when equipped with a Power Fist and a Cyclone Missile Launcher. Well, expensive super flexible units, but they allow to choose whether it's a shooting match or a melee charge that will determine the victory of the game :p

 

Rather than having flexibility through unit combinations, which will make the force stretch super thin.

[Sircyn]

Yeah I've always thought that you have several different niches you need to be confident in covering to have a capable list.

 

Light/Medium Infantry.

MeQ

TeQ

Monstrous Creatures/Primarch

Light/Medium Vehicles (Anything below AV14)

Heavy Vehicles and Super Heavies (AV14+ and loads of HP)

Scoring

 

This is where multiple specialist units can overlap to cover particular target categories. My Mor Deythan can cover any infantry type, preferring heavier. Multi melta attack bikes cover any armour and TeQ at a pinch.

 

Combining the cost effective units to focus on target priorities first (even if they are slightly out of their preferred target) to me seems a lot better than having a lot of units that can cover more bases on a per unit basis, but overall add up to mediocre damage output as you often pay a premium for in unit flexibility in comparison to cheap focused units you can get several of.

 

So dragging it back to assault marines, they can react with their speed and Melta bombs to different targets in different locations and sometimes that's worth a million pounds. However an infiltrating rhino tactical squad in the right place and a small attack bike/melta support squad can do different things at the same time that play to their strengths all the time.

 

In unit flexibility I find is really useful on veteran tactical squads, a rhino, melta bombs, two melta guns and an artificer/power axe sergeant can outflank or infiltrate into targets of opportunity and bully them. Then score objectives. For about same price as a smallish assault marine squad with similar kit.

[GreyCrow]

It's definitely a strategy ;) I tend to focus damage on a specific area whlie having damage mitigation from the targets I can't cover. The last game I played was 1k points with a friend's Ultramarines and I picked 30 Tacticals in Rhinos and 3 distinct Predator Executionners with heavy bolters (why didn't he model them with Lascans, damn him !).

 

Obviously clear weaknesses against heavy armour, which meant I had to avoid it during the battle, but clear strengths against anything else. My fear is that it's hard to cover all the basics in a list in an effective way (on paper), so I tend to favour focusing on specific strengths, understanding the glaring weaknesses and doing my best to avoid them on the battlefield.

[Nusquam]

Now before I start, it's important to know that this expansion is geared towards narrative play. Of which I fully support.

 

But if we're talking crunch for the sake of discussing it; the 30k army list has a lot of options for dealing with anything; lightnings, deredeos, typhons, etc, etc. The hard part is using them well. One list can vary from another almost completely and still be effective at the same thing. A list with Dark Furies is going to mince power armor like one with phosphex rapiers will, but differently. Identifying the specific strengths and weaknesses in how they function is the important part.

 

Mechanically speaking this game will always favor units geared for one purpose over those that are built for multiple when determining effectiveness. There are a few ringers that aren't expensive for coverage, but most units will perform better if kitted for one type of target. That's just how the system works.

 

The next question is how does the unit you're considering stack up against other ones. I would, in a heartbeat, take assault marines if they were 200 points base as core troops just to fill my desire for jump packs and not even consider the crunchy side. But tacticals always win out in every list I've ever made. 25 points for 10 marines with basic equipment is painfully high, 20ppm at 20 marines is borderline acceptable if their cost wasn't more than a Typhon before you even upgrade the AMs. Should you upgrade them they're sitting at Fellblade costs. I use tacs strictly for scoring and opportune support. IF can make better use of large numbers in a firing line, EC/WE can make better use of despoilers, DG/IW/Sallies do better with advancing the line and so on. The less I spend on depending on my scoring to do anything other than score, the better the results.

Now some units are capable of scoring and assaulting or tank hunting and so on. Vets and Termis are great for clearing enemy scoring off of objectives. Units like Mor Deythan are great for heavily defending objectives if needed, but are even better at hunting scary units.

 

Then taking all the points above what does RG offer over other legions besides the obvious benefits of our unique legions? That is countering the enemy, rather than breaking through. Our deployment abilities alone can mitigate the opponents strengths. Then apply a RG mindset during the battle and one can not only put an enemy off balance but keep them there.

[pompeyladbfp]

Nusquam.. Telling it how it is.. I fully concur.

 

I do think when the crusade list is redone, we may see a reduction in the inbuilt tax for certain units. Which may make certain units shine.

[defl0]

I don't think anyone is going to think AMs are viable strategically until they get a huge price reduction, thus making their cost at least acceptable,  let alone worth taking.

 

I have actually had a bit of success with them recently. 20 AMs with a chaplain and melta bombs can screw up any sort of tread head list. Especially in an angels wrath list. Hit & Run is SOOOO huge. 

 

I also ran a squad with a vigilator, in scout armor with a jumpapack the other day in a Recon list. It offers the ability to scout them, ignore difficult terrain, and get shrouding & stealth. So you keep them in cover for a 2+ cover save and ur opponent really only gets one turn to shoot you before you multi charge all their tanks as once.

 

It also opens up the ability to deepstrike into cover. You still pick up +1 for stealth as well. This also fits really well with Maun gving a zone of no scatter deepstrike. 

 

Another way to think about their cost, is that 10 vets with Melta bombs is the cheapest way to get 10 melta bombs in your army. So 22.5 points a marine. 20 jumpers with melta bombs come in at 25 points a marine. 

 

So if melta bombs are how you plan on dealing with spartans and the like, their cost isn't really that bad. 

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm excited for the price drop, but I actually think people don't use AMs because they don't think of them (i.e cost them) as tank hunters / tar pits.

 

Also, I find more and more that if you go infantry you have to GO INFANTRY. So having a tank hunter unit that adds 20 wounds to your army count is more valuable the further you invest in the concept. 

[Gyem]

 

I also ran a squad with a vigilator, in scout armor with a jumpapack the other day in a Recon list. It offers the ability to scout them, ignore difficult terrain, and get shrouding & stealth.

 

 

unless I'm mistaken ignore difficult terrain isn't conferred by the scout armor. I reread move though cover and I believe only the scout armor wearer get to ignore tests.

[Slips]

 

 

I also ran a squad with a vigilator, in scout armor with a jumpapack the other day in a Recon list. It offers the ability to scout them, ignore difficult terrain, and get shrouding & stealth.

 

 

unless I'm mistaken ignore difficult terrain isn't conferred by the scout armor. I reread move though cover and I believe only the scout armor wearer get to ignore tests.

 

Scout armor confers Move Through Cover to the Vigilator which, due to being a conferred rule, passes onto the Assault Squad.

[Gyem]

While I agree that the whole squad get most of the benefits from the rule, the wording is pretty clear on who get to auto pass dangerous terrain test.

 

The wording is clearly different from usual confer rules like night vision or monster hunter.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Gyem

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea it explicitly states the model for the ignoring dangerous, while the rest says "a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule rolls an extra d6.....yaddayaddayadda"

[pompeyladbfp]

guys...

 

im needing some nice ap2 killyness and as im going for a mainly foot/dark fury list whats the best out of these?

 

support squad x 10 with 9 plasmaguns and aug (360) just great killing power every turn and can intercept

 

or 10 seekers with 10 combiplas (350) bs5 and can pref enemy against one enemy unit which is amazing with plasma

 

the other option is MD, ive already got two 5 man mor deythan in rhinos with combiflamers, but 10 of these would be 305 with 10 combiplas...

 

thoughts?

 

 

[Nusquam]

WHat exactly are you facing? Termis? Automata? Or anything that might have a 2+? How are you getting them there?

 

If it's automata then MD infiltrated and scouted with a rhino or seekers in a pod to kill them ASAP.

 

If it's termis then how are they coming at you? Spartan? Ram? On foot?

[pompeyladbfp]

Its for an all comers list, ill be using recon ROW so no pods. I do have a grav dread in pod.. All the foot guys are infiltrating etc

[Terminus]

Seekers have a much higher frontloaded damage output. It takes 8.5 support marines to equal the damage output of 5 Seekers using Marked for Death. The support squad is cheaper by a good bit, and has sustained damage output, and the unit leader can take an augury scanner for intercepting shenanigans.  On the other hand, being a scoring unit with significant ranged threat, made up of power armored models that need to be outside of transport and melee to sustain said threat, makes tactical support squads very high on target priority.  Seekers who used up their combi-weapons are fancy tactical marines so may survive long enough to score some objectives.  Seekers really need a deep striking method of delivery so they can get into rapid fire range of their principal target.  Support marines can happily zip around in a Rhino popping off two shots out of the fireports and piling out when a juicy target appears. 

 

Mor Deythan are basically a combination of both, carrying the cost of support marines and the devastation of Seekers.  I feel people mis-use these units by not taking advantage of 1 in 3 special weapons. I played with squads full of combi-flamers, and it's hard to get all the guys in range for templates, there are always a couple of dudes in the back. That's why I think the best configuration for Mor Deythan is 6 with 4 combi flamers and 2 plasma guns. Plasma guns like their special attack as much as flamers, and gives the unit something to do while their rhino is traveling up the field, and gives them some threat after the money turn, but not enough threat to draw every enemy gun within range. If FW ever makes a Rite that makes Mor Deythan troops, we're all doomed.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Terminus

[Gyem]

Just to add the another obvious solution to 2+ beside plasma, a Typhon can ID a few of them each turn.

[pompeyladbfp]

Never considered it very Raven guardey.. But it is amazing for its points.

[pompeyladbfp]

Terminus.. I have considered 6 man squads with combiflamers x4, but what about suspensor missile launchers instead of plas??

[Gyem]

While we are on the AP2 subject, how good/cost efficient darkfire castellax?

I was looking at a praevian with 2/3 castellax w/ targeting array and tank hunter. I looking to use them as AT vs Spartans and super heavy but they look pricy (550pts for 3 robots + praevian). I could get 2.5 tooledup lightnings for that price.

Lance looks pretty tasty in this AV14 meta and infiltrate should help me avoid flare shields.

 

Any experience on this kind of build?

 

Edit : looks like it's tank hunter OR infiltrate/fleet. Or does the Praevian gives infiltrate with is LA and only fleet is lost?

Edited April 24, 2016 by Gyem

[Nusquam]

Terminus.. I have considered 6 man squads with combiflamers x4, but what about suspensor missile launchers instead of plas??

 

I've tried that out myself but plas always seemed to do better. Sure you can charge afterwords, so coming out of a darkwing it''s not so bad. But using a rhino you're not charging anyway and the additional shot and AP2 have gone far.

 

While we are on the AP2 subject, how good/cost efficient darkfire castellax?

I was looking at a praevian with 2/3 castellax w/ targeting array and tank hunter. I looking to use them as AT vs Spartans and super heavy but they look pricy (550pts for 3 robots + praevian). I could get 2.5 tooledup lightnings for that price.

Lance looks pretty tasty in this AV14 meta and infiltrate should help me avoid flare shields.

 

Any experience on this kind of build?

 

Edit : looks like it's tank hunter OR infiltrate/fleet. Or does the Praevian gives infiltrate with is LA and only fleet is lost?

The wording is pretty poorly worded, but general consensus is that you only choose from generic rules if you don't have legion rules.

 

 

 

Also there's a lot of in depth discussion about these ideas farther back in the thread. I recommend doing a search and you'll get answers.

[Terminus]

I disagree with that "consensus", it's pretty clear to me it lets you pick between one of those rules or a specific legion rule. And yes, that means Alpha Legion and Raven Guard can have infiltrating tank hunting dark lance Castellax. Ravens can also add stealth if I'm not mistaken.

 

Saw your link, and I see that by "consensus" you meant your sole opinion based on an assumed condition not actually written in the rules.

 

Terminus.. I have considered 6 man squads with combiflamers x4, but what about suspensor missile launchers instead of plas??

I'll take two rending S7 shots at AP2 vs one at S8 AP3, especially at 10 points cheaper.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Terminus

[Nusquam]

You can disagree with it if you want to. We've already discussed it in this very thread and I shared my thoughts.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The problem with what the "or" means is that there's no language that restricts the generic USRs to non-released legions. Its a simple trade-off between the strengths of legion astartes and particular inductee bonuses and tank hunter