[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[Nusquam]

You do raise a very good point for that, and I may have overlooked it. I lean more towards the non-named because I like crafting my own story, but your right about the point sink. 

 

 

I guess I have to get the books and play sometime instead of thinking on a purely theoretical basis x-x

 

Playing really does help a lot. Forging your own story is great. It's a different mindset than just looking at the game. By all means, if you want to make your own beefy Praetor and give him a name go for it.

 

 

I really wish Mor Deythan could take pods with our RoW, but they can't unless we take Orbital RoW. Which means no infiltrating, rerolling who goes first etc.

 

What the fragstorm offers over Seekers is d3 S5 pinning blasts that force rerolls on pinning on every unit with 12" of the pod the turn it comes down. That can pave the way for a successful landing.

 

So have you ever tried mor deythan in an infiltrating, scouting rhino? 

 

Also, it strikes me that frag storms could be really good with a librarian with telepathy. 

 

 

I've only used Mor Deythan in a Darkwing or infiltrated with sniper rifles. After my first game my usual opponent knows all too well what they can do; so I've avoided putting them forward because I know they'll just get focused on. Infiltrate does help put them where you want them and a rhino can work. I just like to keep them as maneuverable as possible. Maximize their ability to hit what I want. Though I usually play 3k+ Heresy games. In smaller games I think the rhino would work, but at the level I play I'm concerned they will just get shot off.

 

Telepathy is much better in 30k. Raining pinning frag missiles on them is icing on the cake. The combination does sound quite good.

[Tiger9gamer]

Alright, sounds good =D I am just waiting to get enough scratch to buy the two red books at least. 

 

 

what would you reccomend for a first HH buy?

[Nusquam]

After the red books I reccomend book 3. The lore is so rich and interesting and has good campaign and zone mortalis rules. Book 4 is also really nice.

[Tiger9gamer]

Alright, thank you =D how about model wise?

[Slips]

Get a VERY Solid idea for a list first, then buy the models. Don't be like me and buy a bunch of stuff you'll probably never use :x

[defl0]

From a model perspective, if you have decided on Raven guard there are some things you can purchase right off the bat. 

 

Tac squads - a good place to start is 2 X 10 tac marines. I would make the sgt more ornate as he will often have articifer armor. It's the back bone of most raven guard lists. 

strike captain alvarex maun - He probably is pretty much is always my always my praetor. 

10 mor deythan - You will probably use these. They are very raven guard and very good. I would just paint them without weapons at first. I did mine with the magnetized combi guns from chapter house studio.

Transports - You will probably want some drop pods and maybe some rhinos.

Assault marines- With magnetized arms they can become destroyers, Dark fury's, assault marines, command squads, even tacs holding bolters one handed if you magnetize the back packs. 

 

 

Beyond that, yeah your world is your oyster.

 

I kinda think the best way to start is just doing 40 tac marines and using them as proxies to try stuff out at the beginning. It's a good way to get your paint scheme down too.

 

I would definitely get some forgeworld raven guard infantry pack to start up with.

[Komrk]

I usually run a kitted praetor in a squad of Mor Deythan with Combi-Volkites in a Darkwing. They always kill a unit the turn they jump out (turn after it comes in) and will usually go on to kill/tie up another unit or two and most will survive.

[Slips]

/facepalm I totally forgot about the Combi-Volkite Entry in Book 4

[Nusquam]

Tac marines are a good place to start. Next is they type of list you want. Mor Deythan are solid. Every build for them is viable. Our legion tactics  benefit Seekers, Combi-Deythan, and Tac Support squads well. Our RoW benefits those squads as well. It comes down to your preference. You can go the sneaky route, the pod route, or even a mix.

 

Any way you play RG, they are great at high-alpha, surgical strikes. With our RoW things like Veteran Tac squads with the Sniper USR and Mor Deythan get to pick enemy ICs and then apply Preferred Enemy to the wound rolls. Podding in Seekers all but ensures a target is, at the very least, maimed.

 

Our Dark Furies are surprisingly points efficient. Initially each Fury costs only 5 points more than the price of a pair of Lightning Claws. That extra 25 points over 5 pairs of claws gets you 5 marines, each equipped with a jump pack and dual claws, a 5+ auto-cover when they Deep Strike and a Sarg that has WS5, 2+ and Ravens Talons. The Sarge alone is worth 20 of those 25 extra points, plus the 5+ cover. Then each marine after is at cost for a pair of claws. You get the marine, 5+ auto-cover and jump pack for free. And when you equip them with Talons they are still at-cost. So in actuality the only thing that actually costs "extra" is the auto-5+ and the WS5 on the sarge for 5 points. That is really good.

 

Edit: How could I forget +1I and +1S on the Charge for these guys. So for 5 points over the cost of two lightning claws you get all that. Glorious.

 

I would stay away from Assault Marines unless you are going for a theme. They are crazy expensive.

 

The Darkwing is solid. Not only for it's rules but that it's a dedicated transport for Termis, Vets and Mor Deythan. Between that and our RoW we get some benefits of both the Angels Wrath and Orbital Assault RoWs and none of the drawbacks for them. This means if you want to do an AirCav list it's not only possible, but good. Vet tacs with Snipers get what I mentioned above and if you want some termis to deliver some pain you can without committing to a Spartan.

 

To break it down I can see three great directions, of which you can mix and match if you want due to the adaptability of the RG list but optimizing the list for one theme would be easier. But don't let that stop you if you want to mix and match.

1. Ambush: Infiltrate Sacs, Seekrs, Tac Support, Mor Deythan, Rapier batteries to counter deploy and get some damage in from unsuspecting quarters. This list lends it strength to shooting more than anything. A gunship or two would compliment the infiltrated units. Add rhinos to taste if you face gunlines with a lot of range.
2. Shock Tactics: Pod in Seekers, Tac Support, Deathstorms and the like to get maximum alpha. You'll need several pods and fire support to make sure the podded units aren't stranded. I recommend things like Rapiers, Sniper-Deythan and/or dropping Deathstorms in before/with the first wave of infantry.
3. AirCav: Mor Deythan, Vets and Termis in Darkwings. Lightnings in FA and a Fire Raptor in HS. Lot's of firepower and mobility. Some infiltrated ground troops like Tacs, Rapiers, Sniper-Deythan etc to have boots on the ground.

Now each of these has a direction but will retain a core battlefield "presence". This is important for the last two especially. Infiltrated Tacs, Mor Deythan and Rapiers etc ensure that your initial troops have survivability until your reserves show up(so you won't have to worry about Sudden Death), but can also support those reserves once they enter play. Because in all three they'll be at least some infiltrated units your opponent has some hard choice to make when they deploy, because no matter what you will have the superior positioning and attack avenues.

 

#1 has battlefield control. It puts the pressure on early. #2 Will do the most damage initially and can win the game in the first two turns. It is more risky, but the rewards are high. The third is the most evasive while retaining firepower.

 

Speaking of reserves, so you can't take a fortification for reserve re-rolls. Fortunately we have Maun and each of the above in reserves has deepstrike, which with his WL Trait allows you to re-roll the reserve roll, and he unlocks our RoW. If he's on the board and you take our RoW you're likely going first. If he's in a flyer it comes on automatically.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Nusquam

[defl0]

I think Volkites are solid in assault support squads, but I think flamers are better on Mor Deythan. They kill more. They ignore cover. The only thing volkites have is range, but you are coming out of an assault vehicle... 

[Nusquam]

With the new dread that just came out our stealthy Storm eagles got more appealing over the normal Eagle. 3+ Jink goes a long way to evade those BS5 S8 Heavy 4 Sunder Twin Linked shots.

[Tiger9gamer]

The new dread came out? damn awesome! also great write up Nusquam! I think I want to do the 1st list you mentioned more, as it feels the most sneaky and fun! 

[Nusquam]

After making that RG/ADMech list and scouring the internet for anything AdMech I'm trying to think of good ways to fight them, especially Castellax. So far it's not a whole lot.

 

Podding in Plas-Seekers have a fair chance of killing one Castellax and taking two wounds off another, but cost more that three. Then they have a good chance of being erased afterwords. Not so great.

 

Quad Mortar Rapier Batteries, while three are cheaper than two Castellax they only do about 2 wounds a turn.

 

Vets with Sniper are cheaper than Seekers but lack the punch resulting in about 3 wounds(with two HBs).

 

Mor Deythan with Sniper Rifles will do 1-3 wounds with [FATAL STRIKE].

 

Destroyers with rad rockets seem to be the only thing that have a chance. Plus [RAD PHAGE] helps reduce their toughness. Being forced to re-roll a 2+ isn't so bad as the usual 4+ with poison. Phosphex would help too.

 

Deep striking Destroyers doesn't seem optimal as the ease of getting interceptor through occulari is high. Infiltrating them close can be impossible with Thallax around due to Djinn Sight. Scouting a Proteus can get it there if theres no Graviton Secutors around, but limits you to only one rocket. Take two 10 man squads, both with two RLs, perhaps putting them inside a Darkwing or the like to get them in close, quadruple rocket them from two angles to get units of 3 or less down a point in toughness-Already this is too expensive...

 

Heavy Support Squads are expensive too...

 

Macro Cannon would do work, but that's not exactly sneaky.

 

Thoughts?

Edited January 23, 2015 by Nusquam

[Slips]

I'd sick a Fire Raptor on them and keep them pinned down with Graviton Rapiers.

 

CC Terminators also seem to be one of the more reliable choices; arm them with Thunder Hammers/Axes/ Fists and Plasma Blasters and charge in with Furious Charge for S10 on the first round of combat.

 

Anything that can ID is also a decent option; though that seems to be limited to Preators with Paragon Blades which aren't the most efficient way.

 

A Kheres Mortis might be able to pack a decent punch with the Rending Shots. The new Deredeo :http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/D/Deredeo.pdf might also be a decent option.

[Nusquam]

Gravitons only have a 1in6 to wound, and a 1in6 to wound again from haywire. MCs have move through cover so they ignore dangerous terrain. So they won't be doing much.

 

A FR's cannon does 1.5 wounds.

 

FC is applied last so they are only S9, still wound a 2+ though. A unit of 5 against 3 Castellax will lose a marine then kill one and repeat close results. So you'd want more than 5 termis to make sure they aren't spent after the first round. While they slug it out have some fast elements to take out the Castellax's support. Stick them in a Ram and you could do some serious work.

 

A Kheres dread will do 1-2 wounds, and since it's in 24" while likely get haywired, lanced or something to death. A Deredeo does just over one wound, but has higher survivability thanks to its range.

 

I think termis are the best bet so far. 10 with fists in a flyer will charge turn 3 at best, which gives you a chance to isolate the Castellax by killing whats around them.  Most AdMech lists I see have 5-6 Catellax across two units. The termis come down and charge one unit, kill it and move onto the next. Effective but expensive.

 

Perhaps I'm looking at this all wrong. The rest of the army is also resilient; so killing off the rest of the army to isolate the Castellax isn't easy but it's possible. Triaros are vulnerable from the sides and rear. Crack them open and get to the gooey insides. The key is to mitigate what the bigger automata can do. Each can survive, shoot well and aren't slouches in CC. Use fast units to strike and fade to take advantage of their low speed. Gunships can evade them while taking out weaker units. Rapiers infiltrated in good positions, on your side of the board if there are thallax but still give you some advantage to put them in good position, to take out thralls and lesser automata. Outflanking Darkwings with Mor Deythan and such to get side shots on the armor and take out the backline. Prioritize Cortex Controllers when possible, but don't overextend for them because Programmed Behavior isn't as bad as it could be.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Nusquam

[defl0]

With the new dread that just came out our stealthy Storm eagles got more appealing over the normal Eagle. 3+ Jink goes a long way to evade those BS5 S8 Heavy 4 Sunder Twin Linked shots.

 

What do you mean? I don't see the connection.

[Nusquam]

 

With the new dread that just came out our stealthy Storm eagles got more appealing over the normal Eagle. 3+ Jink goes a long way to evade those BS5 S8 Heavy 4 Sunder Twin Linked shots.

 

 

What do you mean? I don't see the connection.

That dread has good AA, our flyer has stealth.

 

Something I just thought of for castellax and other automata. Blind them. Eclipse missles and the like.

[Tiger9gamer]

Snipers should be great against them, so maybe mor dynath snipers or Vets?

[Nusquam]

Them combined with keeping them blinded would work. The may not die fast but when they aren't doing much else it helps. Gives us breathing room to take on the rest of the army.

[defl0]

IMO. Destroyers are good to knock down toughness, but personally i think missile javelins with extra HK missiles are solid.

 

Also assault support squads in pods with melta or plasma are solid. Or what is probably the best all rounder is termies in a pod with combi plasma and PFs. Or run them in a bird or ram.  

 

Another less conventional approach is chaplains... Re roll to hit on charge with grendades could be solid in things like 20 man tac squads.

[defl0]

Removed

Edited January 25, 2015 by defl0

[defl0]

Since we're on the topic. What do you think some strong ally choices are for RG? 

[Nusquam]

AdMech and Solar. In that order. Since they're the only allies we can take if we take out RoW. It's early in the morning for me so I'll try to brain this as best as I can ha.

 

AdMech bring even better killing potential and durability. They can provide cheap scoring Thrall blobs, tough as nails Castellax and nimble Thallax.

 

Where they really shine is taking things like a Myrmidax Magos with twin fusils and some Occularis. My list here takes full advantage of it. With 12 S6 AP3 shots and -3 to cover they can maim infantry. Plus they're maneuverable and can deep strike accurately with Maun. This makes them synergize well with RG lists.

 

Alternatively they can provide a good vanguard with their Conveyor tanks full of Myrmidons. Such as Secutors with double Gravitons and pump out haywire or Destructors with Irradiation Engines for AP3 fleshbane torrent goodness. Throw in some fearless Thrall blobs and it lets us optimize the RG side for killing and maneuvering. Let the AdMech go toe-to-toe with the enemy.

 

A third option is a core of Castellax. While they aren't as maneuverable they are tough, deadly and scoring. Two units of 2-3 Castellax and a Thanatar will take hits and dish out punishment. This is more of a support list, leaving the RG portion to be the forward element.

 

Solar bring durability in the form of numbers and tanks. Tercios are solid troop optoins. The Storms are great and loading them up in a Dracosan is deadly. Alternatively they can load up on ADLs and provide support from a distance.

 

AdMech vs Solar

 

AdMech:

• Higher raw damage potential(Arcane gear and weapons)
• More durable and cheaper troops(Thralls), but less damage output(VS Tercios, Storm Sections etc).
• More durable troop transports at base price, keeping them cheaper(Conveyor) but lack upgrades such as ceramite and weapon options.
• Deadlier specialized troops(Thallax can have a wide array of weapons) but fewer in number.
• More durable "big units" units(Castellax/Thanatar) but lower mobility(VS Russ squadrons) and need a Cortex to babysit them.
• Tanks are more durable and fast but are limited in options. The two Krios options are solid but trade single target specialization for coverage

 

Solar:

• Trade raw damage for spreading out damage output across units rather than specializing as much. Thus each unit can do a larger array of things but not as good in any extreme singular specialty(Anti MEQ, AT etc).
• While the troops can't get more specialized weaponry(Plasma Fusils etc) and wargear(Djinn sight etc)there's more of them and each Tercio can have a unit with the same weapon for specializing(Las, flamer, Volkite). Single units aren't as tough but can be more mobile, set up a better defensive position and can do well in a larger array of roles. Can't take on MEQ+ as well but can rack up the numbers, trade quality for quantity) and do well against GEQ-, 10 man units with Volkite Chargers are still deadly.
• Troop transport less durable base, defensive upgrades will make it more durable but cost more. Has better armament too.
• More options of tanks to further specialize in a role; Executioners do better against heavy infantry vs the Krios but are overkill on rank and file unlike the Krios. Vanquishers do better against harder targets like super heavies but are pigeon holed where as the Krios Ven can do better agaisnt MCs, and heavy infantry as well. Cost more but do better in specialized roles. Alternatively you can take less specialized Russ tanks for coverage but will cost more.

In short: They are very similar and can overlap in some areas but with a different flavor. At it's core Solar is a troop heavy elite army(As in body count). Their baseline is more even across the army until you get to the Russ squadrons. Here they can be optimized for a specific role but you pay for it. AdMechs baseline is all over the place. It's more extreme in some places, such as Fusil Thallax, which makes them better at taking down MEQ+ but worse than say a Storm Section at taking down GEQ-. This doesn't mean Storms are bad at taking down marines, they just trade specialty for coverage. Or Thralls which are much better at not dying for their price but lack the offensive capabilities, namely at range.

 

I would have to say for RG, AdMech is the better choice. AdMech have deadlier specialized units for what you'll probably fight the most often: Marines and Marien Vehicles. They can do this better and more efficiently for the slots available in an allies chart while either complementing RG scalpel-style warfare with a nice hammer/anvil in the form of Castellax and Thralls or supplementing it with raiding Myrmidons and Thallax. AdMech are a ringer when it comes to how the game of warhammer works. Optimizing a unit for one task is almost always better than coverage. Especially when it comes to shooting. A good example is a Devastator squad armed with just lascannons will always do better against their one target, tanks, than a unit of 2 missile launchers and 2 lascannons will do at both anti infantry and anti tank since the unit as to all shoot at the same target unit. With this in mind AdMech can optimize in spades while being great in points cost. Sure each unit has a specific type of target, but you have the points to take a second unit to take on what the first can't. Resulting in a more optimized list for the game.

 

That doesn't mean Solar is bad, far from it. Solar are great. They can provide a more mobile and larger anvil at the cost of having more efficient anti-MEQ ability in each FOC slot. Solar can pump out some good Anti-MEQ damage, but it costs a lot more. A normal Russ tank will cost 50 points more for something that's less efficient at killing MEQs than a standard Krios, but is better at AT duties. Until you take a Ven Krios, which is cheaper by 25 points and trades some anti-MEQ for much better AT and anti-TEQ. This isn't why you take Solar with RG. You take Solar for it's adaptability. While Thralls will hang onto a back or midfield objective better for their points, a Solar Tercio will be able to push and hold the line to directly support your RG units. While Myrmidons will kill a certain type of target better, you'll have 10 Storm Veletarii for every 3 Myrmidon and not be slouches in the shooting department. While a Myrmidax Magos and Fusil Thallax can zip around killing MEQs better, Solar Tercios will be able to hold the objectives your Mor Deythan cleared out and moved on from. Solar provide the adaptable infantry force which lets you specialize your RG force more. Still though, while you have a larger count of capable troops, you lack the optimization that AdMech are capable of.

 

Edit: I forgot a few bits of info: The Conveyor has AV14 on the front, one more than the Dracosan but has one less HP. It also counts as AV15(15/2=7.5^8+1 for being a tank = S9) when ramming and when it tank shocks it deals d6 S6 hits. This gives it a bonus when dislodging enemy infantry from cover/objectives so our units, or the units that were inside it, can engage them in the open. I feel a train blitz list comign on.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Nusquam

[defl0]

Great Post! 

 

Yeah I think Ad mech do a great job at protecting the back field with Castellax (LOL 85 pts...) and thralls. Deepstriking, lightning gun Destructor (Tank Hunting) Thallax seem pretty nasty at dropping things like spartans as well and have good synergy with a drop Raven Guard list. 

 

And not that we need more lightning claws units but Ursarax have always felt very Raven Guard to me in an Ad Mech way. 

 

The other concept that I think might work with going heavy on the Ad Mech and as a base and using units like termies in landraiders to as counter assault units. Granted this has a much more Terran XIX feel to it. 

 

In some ways, I feel the best ad mech allies detachment is really minimum. Like baby sitter magos, two castellex w. power blades, big thral unit. The 300 points of pain in the ass to deal with. 

[Nusquam]

I forgot about the Ursarax since they don't have models yet. I like them but would probably equip most or half in the unit with fists since they are I2. Put the claw ones in front to soak wounds and have the rest go to town with S10 powerfists. Popping transports and and ID'ing things. The claw ones can do the prisoned blast. Still gives them AP2 and hits before unwieldy. Keep them in front to soak CC wounds so the fists get a chance to swing. A Chaplain with them can put down some serious hurt, especially if they come down within Mauns bubble, bonus point sbecause they also have a shooting attack. They can go after legion specific terminators or other automata with all their ID and stay alive with their T5 W3 and FnP while your Dark Furies(Possibly with a Centurion equipped with a VSH?) can shred up generic termis, tac blobs, templar and the like.

 

Vorax are interesting but surprisingly lacklustre. For something 10 points less than a Castellax they sure don't offer much other than an outflanking distraction unit. Sure they are MCs but their stats aren't impressive for something that still only moves 6" and has OK shooting. I want to like them but Ursarax are faster and no slouches in CC and Castellax are tougher and shoot better.

 

One thing I totally forgot about Solar was their artillery. This closes the gap between them and AdMech for top ally contender. Maun can be used to grant LoS, or all those infiltrating Tac squads equipped with a Vox. A battery of bombards can put down serious pain on our opponents scoring units. 60" S6 AP3 large blast ignores cover is serious business. Three of them will maim tac blobs with ease. While they don't have the S8 AP2 of the Thanatar, ignores cover alone makes them worth considering.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Nusquam