Exorcising the Daemons

[Captain Idaho]

I thought I'd get the ball rolling on a topic to devise methods for playing and winning against our friends from the warp by starting a topic, since their excessive Psychic powers shenanigans had everyone in a fluster. One day I might write an article, after my Ultramarines article (now 7th edition has hit) or course.

 

Ignoring that last bit; what machinations have people got in their vambraces for defeating these unpleasant foes? Anecdotes are more than welcome to support your suggestions.

 

My first solution is to steal the default tactics from our brothers in the Black Templars and kill the witches! Sounds advice any day the week I suppose.

 

With this in mind I was thinking a blitz from turn one can be used to cripple the opponent's army and force Daemons to play catch up with summoning. Drop Pod and heavy hitting units to decisively hurt those Pink Horrors and weakling Heralds.

 

What else has been rattling around in people's minds lately? Obviously we have the consideration of Daemons without a summoning fetish too.

[GreyCrow]

Apparently, isn't volume of fire the best way to deal with Daemons these days ?

 

I would leverage Daemonic instability against them. Focus on one or two units at a time, with a combination of shooty units with high volume of damage output potential, then finish them in assault.

 

Whittling them down will favor you for combat resolution, so winning by 3 or 4 points for a Leadership 7 will cause them to lose a few more models in each turn.

The goal, though, is to go for a systematic wipe of a unit a turn, going to full throttle. Any group of 5 Pink Horrors slain will remove 1 WC dice for the total pool available to the Daemons player, so it's worth it, considering he has to roll 6 dice for an average reliable cast for any conjuration.

[secretforge]

It requires some investment but:

 

4 rune priests will net you a 2+ deny the witch against any cast.

 

Its the only psychic defence that doesn't refer to the unit, therefore it works against non targeting powers.

And the faq doesn't say that it doesn't stack. therefore basic mathematics says it does, as its adding to a roll.

 

People may argue that its bending raw to suit my needs. But if I'm across table from someone who wants to use 30+ warp charges and has brought a second army's worth of models to spawn...darn right I'm going to ring every last drop out of the rules. Otherwise I'm just going to say no and walk away.

[Captain Idaho]

Well I'll not normally use allies and if I did it would have to be in a list with which can still take on other armies, as I play tournaments mostly these days.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Precision shots.  No, seriously.  Kill the Heralds.  They're, what, two-wound models that provide three warp charges each?  Snipers (with Telion for you Ultra-types) to decapitate those little bastards.  Killing one or two in just the first turn will insert a hiccup in the summoning pattern.

 

Other than that, template weapons.  Lots of them.  Flamestorm cannons, Whirlwinds, Thunderfires, Vindicators, as many flamers as you can find, followed by a few good power armored punches to the face.  Horrors aren't exactly the stoutest of enemies.

[Garath]

Drop in some dreadnoughts ?  

 

Seriously.  A dread with a twin h.flamer+ flamer and a pod cost 150 pts.  As soon as it lands it will cripple a unit.  If the demon doesn't commit somthing to kill it it will simply rampage all over the place.

[GreyCrow]

In that case, yeah, firing all you've got one unit at a time may seriously cripple the enemy. A conjuring spam army has surprising mechanics : they perform better early game, and they perform well late game if they're allowed to perform well early game.

 

I would say, give them Turn 1, and prepare everything you've got for a full Turn 2 assault, one or two units at a time depending on the points size.

[minigun762]

Drop in some dreadnoughts ?

 

Seriously. A dread with a twin h.flamer+ flamer and a pod cost 150 pts.

Flamenought. I'll see if that name sticks.

 

On topic , it comes down to anti infantry firepower mattering again. Most things being summoned are T3-4 with a 5++ save to force handfuls of saves.

[markham82]

Also try and reduce the 12" area around the psyker. It's probably easier to just kill the offending scum. 

[GreyCrow]

 

Drop in some dreadnoughts ?

 

Seriously. A dread with a twin h.flamer+ flamer and a pod cost 150 pts.

Flamenought. I'll see if that name sticks.

 

On topic , it comes down to anti infantry firepower mattering again. Most things being summoned are T3-4 with a 5++ save to force handfuls of saves.

 

 

I was wondering when the Flamenaught would pop upon this thread :p

(As a side note, considering the change to Damage chart and Monstruous Creatures, they are much much more viable than they used to)

 

 

Also try and reduce the 12" area around the psyker. It's probably easier to just kill the offending scum. 

 

Interesting point, but that would be painful against multiple casting Pink Horror units.

[Fibonacci]

Flamenought. I'll see if that name sticks.

Penitent Engines

[Captain Idaho]

Good advice all!

 

It's hard to move away from Iron Clad Dreads as a means to punish over reliance on Horrors. It also forces commitment from Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons.

 

Greychow; could you elaborate on what you mean by strong early game but not mid game?

 

It seems Ultramarines and Salamanders will be able to hit hard and first with Drop Pods, so what do people consider the best targets to prioritise? The weak link looks like Horrors.

 

Imperial Fists look like they'll benefit from bolter drill so could support their Drop Pod attack with more accurate bolter rapid fire.

 

White Scars? I'm thinking they should hit hard and fast immediately! Choose your target and wipe it out. Not an expert with bikers though.

 

What about other Chapters, including our friends in their own Codex books?

[minigun762]

Heralds seem to be the primary target if you can get them. High ML for the points. Fateweaver is a natural target if you can get to him and beware people claiming 8 dice from him for both of his head's as the codex says only a single head counts at a time for warp charges.

 

Edit: and don't forget they need to be rolling on the warp storm table too.

[Captain Idaho]

Good points!

[Garath]

Iron hands ? Dreads that refuse to go down?

How about two Flamenoughts from drop pods ( oh yeah - it's on ) right smack in front of his army ? Forget about tacticals , they don't have the punch. Flame whatever you can kill. Horrors are a perfect target -but other smaller demons work also.

He HAS to kill them. Since he cannot shoot them dead, assault is the only option for him,

Charging a dreadnought is not a pleasent thing to do, especially since it means that win or loose- that FMC is not flying forward if it's killing that dread. If it's not flying forward - it's not contributing enough.

The more important thing here being the effort to keep the demon player in his deployment zone .

Second wave could include some ...sternguard?

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like to point out that a Flying Monstrous Creature cannot charge the turn it changes from swooping to gliding, so we can use this to our advantage.

 

If we deep strike down and start culling those little Daeomons and getting to the Heralds, especially with Dreadnoughts, the opponent can't charge them next turn. Considering this a Daemon player will have to plan for that and leave them deployed on the table, thus gliding and therefore targets!

[Axagoras]

It requires some investment but:

 

4 rune priests will net you a 2+ deny the witch against any cast.

 

Its the only psychic defence that doesn't refer to the unit, therefore it works against non targeting powers.

And the faq doesn't say that it doesn't stack. therefore basic mathematics says it does, as its adding to a roll.

 

People may argue that its bending raw to suit my needs. But if I'm across table from someone who wants to use 30+ warp charges and has brought a second army's worth of models to spawn...darn right I'm going to ring every last drop out of the rules. Otherwise I'm just going to say no and walk away.

No you cant just stack the +1 from runic weapons...

 

also flames shoudlnt work, since the iterations of this list i see are screamerstars but instead of rolling divination/shooting spells they roll on malific. tank 1st round shooting with the 2++ rerolling while summoning more things to boost ML then scatter and summon everything. Also there was a comment on getting precision shots, but what even has those since it looks like characters lost it.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Sniper rifles have precision shot, I said that.  You know, one of our Troops choices?

 

As for screamerstars tanking wounds. . . how can they do that?  They only way it's possible is if you're dumb enough to pod your flame-heavy units next to the screamers, which provide zero bonus to the summoning spam we're trying to shut down.  Ignore the screamers!  Flame the horrors!  Kill the things that provide extra warp charges, and when the screamers get into assault to start clearing your troops, give them a Shield Eternal Chapter Master or some Hammernators to chew on.  That should slow them down.

 

Also, TFCs.  When summoned, the daemons will arrive via deep strike.  Even if they run, they'll be reasonably bunched up.  Drop some barrages on their heads and watch 'em go *poof*.  They only have a 5++ save, after all.

[Dam13n]

4 rune priests will net you a 2+ deny the witch against any cast.

 

Not sure where you're getting the 2+ from.

 

The FAQ states:

"The third sentence of the Runic Weapon Rules should be replaced with the following:  'Furthermore, a model with a runic weapon adds 1 to Deny the Witch rolls.' "

 

The third sentence being:

"Furthermore, whenever an enemy model succeeds on a Psychic Test within 24" of the bearer, roll a dice - on the roll of a 4+ that power is nullified."

 

So all you get is +1 to DtW tests... there isn't even a bubble of effect as the Rune Priest has no Psychic Hood.

 

This means that only the unit containing the Rune Priest has improved psychic defence.

 

Now you could be suggesting putting all four of those Rune Priests in the same unit and claiming that the effects of the combined Runic Weapons stack for a +4 to DtW (together with the +1 for the unit containing a psyker for a total of +5... which would effectively result in an auto-deny, so long as you had enough warp charges) but that would only work against powers directed at that one unit... So they'll get shot to death as a priority.

[GreyCrow]

Another idea thrown in the air, because they arrive by Deep strike, why not put a few Land Speeder Storms with Jamming Beacon on the table ? Especially if you're taking Scouts with sniper rifles...

 

Oh the trolling, seeing these new daemons scatter 24" out of the board.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Not a bad idea, but Storms still suffer from being AV10 2HP (though the improved save from Jink helps a little), and you'd need two or three to provide decent coverage.  The thing to remember here is that since the Jammers increase the scatter distance, and scatter is rolled only after the first model is placed, that that first model has to be inside the Jammer's range or else you've achieved nothing.

[Kilofix]

Some thoughts from a Daemon player:

 

Troop Daemons have no Armor Save (apart from their 5++ Invul), they rely alot on Cover or BLOS.

Troop Daemons further rely on spacing against Blast or Template.

Troop Daemons can't reliably Deep Strike into Cover or behind BLOS without risk of Dangerous or Mishap.

Troop Daemons can't move after Deep Strike and they end up in tight little groups.

Troop Daemons can't really attack either after Deep Striking (cause they're mostly CC).

 

Large Blast or Template the whole unit (preferably with Str 6 or multi shot) in your proceeding Turn. Thunderfire, Wyvern, Cyclone, Bikes w/Flamer, Devs w/multi-ML, Stormtalons w/Typhoon, Relic Preds, Contemptors, dual BC Vengeance, etc.

 

You should be able to get some of the above for the price that your opponent is paying for Heralds.

[Axagoras]

they can run after arriving and its not like they have a better option, and if there letting you get to the horrors in the back who just generate warp dice then idk what to tell the opponent. every time i have seen malefic used it just floods the board with daemons beyond number.

[Kilofix]

they can run after arriving and its not like they have a better option, and if there letting you get to the horrors in the back who just generate warp dice then idk what to tell the opponent. every time i have seen malefic used it just floods the board with daemons beyond number.

 

True.

 

But I mean there's a difference between 4 Heralds and like 30 Heralds. If it were the former, I'd still just use AoE. If it were the latter, I simply wouldn't play.

[secretforge]

 

It requires some investment but:

 

4 rune priests will net you a 2+ deny the witch against any cast.

 

Its the only psychic defence that doesn't refer to the unit, therefore it works against non targeting powers.

And the faq doesn't say that it doesn't stack. therefore basic mathematics says it does, as its adding to a roll.

 

People may argue that its bending raw to suit my needs. But if I'm across table from someone who wants to use 30+ warp charges and has brought a second army's worth of models to spawn...darn right I'm going to ring every last drop out of the rules. Otherwise I'm just going to say no and walk away.

No you cant just stack the +1 from runic weapons...

 

also flames shoudlnt work, since the iterations of this list i see are screamerstars but instead of rolling divination/shooting spells they roll on malific. tank 1st round shooting with the 2++ rerolling while summoning more things to boost ML then scatter and summon everything. Also there was a comment on getting precision shots, but what even has those since it looks like characters lost it.

 

 

Give me one rules reason why they don't stack... Because basic mathematics has x+1+1 = x+2. So until its specified they don't. They in fact do stack.

 

 

4 rune priests will net you a 2+ deny the witch against any cast.

 

Not sure where you're getting the 2+ from.

 

The FAQ states:

"The third sentence of the Runic Weapon Rules should be replaced with the following:  'Furthermore, a model with a runic weapon adds 1 to Deny the Witch rolls.' "

 

The third sentence being:

"Furthermore, whenever an enemy model succeeds on a Psychic Test within 24" of the bearer, roll a dice - on the roll of a 4+ that power is nullified."

 

So all you get is +1 to DtW tests... there isn't even a bubble of effect as the Rune Priest has no Psychic Hood.

 

This means that only the unit containing the Rune Priest has improved psychic defence.

 

Now you could be suggesting putting all four of those Rune Priests in the same unit and claiming that the effects of the combined Runic Weapons stack for a +4 to DtW (together with the +1 for the unit containing a psyker for a total of +5... which would effectively result in an auto-deny, so long as you had enough warp charges) but that would only work against powers directed at that one unit... So they'll get shot to death as a priority.

 

 

Your'e right you get +1 to deny the witch tests... However, unlike all the other psychic defences, there is no mention of the rune priests unit, or the rune priest himself, therefore unlike all other psychic defences, it applies to all your attempts. not all his (the rune priests) attempts.

 

I'm confused what makes you see it any other way. Other than GWs history for arbitrary nerfs. why expect the best psy defence in the game in 6th to not be a viable psy defence in 7th, especially when the rules as written are not limiting it in the way you are assuming.