[HH1.0] 30k Alpha Legion Tactics

[Caillum]

Either Alpha Legion or Raven Guard will perform very well. I think they're pretty comfortably the 2 best at the moment.

 

1. I like Lernaeans. People don't seem to rate them that highly, but they are pretty damn good. They get WS 5, Stubborn and an extra attack on the Harrower for only 15 points (and power fists make sense, yes). If you're running Coils, stealing Firedrakes or Red Butchers is probably better.

 

2. Headhunters are a great unit - swap the Prime's bolt pistol for a power fist and add Dynat for a nasty unit. You can add in more characters, like a Forge Lord, for extra punch and an Apothecary for survivabilty. Rad grenades + power daggers + Preferred Enemy = awesome.

 

3. Saboteur is an ok choice, but it can surprise you. The real strength is how little of a threat people will consider him. Give him a Jump Pack for Deep Strike, a combi-melta and melta bombs and he can reap havoc on your opponents backfield vehicles. Just note that the Combat Augment Array trick is illegal - check the rules forum. But yes, Dynat helps here too.

 

4. Coils is good for certain things:

- you really want a unit from another army. There's some bloody strong options, like Firedrakes, Red Butchers, Siege Tyrants, Mor Deythan and Invictarus Suzerains.

- helps to Sieze the Initiative with Alpharius (though RG's Alvarex Maun does this better).

- you want to shut down your opponent's Reserve-heavy army (with Skorr and a LR Proteus they can be down to a 6+).

 

5. Alpha Legion do anti-tank like any Legion, sometimes better. Tank Hunters helps Laser Destroyer Rapiers (obviously), but you can also use Infiltrate for putting Graviton cannon Rapiers in perfect positions. Dual Grav Contemptors in Drop Pods with Dynat? Money.

 

6. Spartan plan? As in, how to stop them? Graviton weapons.

 

In case you missed it, Dynat is brilliant in many ways. So are graviton weapons. :)

[TemujinZero]

Hey guys, long time no read !

 

Pretty cool chat around here Been reading this with much interest

 

I'm still considering between the Raven Guard and the AL for an Heresy army, and I had a few questions :

 

1) The Lernaean Terminators sound pretty cool to me to be honest... I was just wondering though, has anyone played them interestingly ? I really like the idea of an annoying Stubborn Objective Secured unit with WS5, potentially infiltrating. Was thinking that Power Fists would be a bit of a no brainer upgrade for all of them (except maybe a chainfist somewhere), due to being only 5 points per model, and them already having an Unwieldy AP2 weapon and a shooting weapon that doesn't give them extra attack. Plus, their 4+ Invulnerable save should probably help against the tougher units that will charge them.

 

2) What about the Headhunter Kill-Teams ? They don't strike me as particularly potent for the points cost due to the randomness of the Banestrike, but perhaps I'm wrong about that. I do like that they have Preferred Enemy Infantry giving them essentially twin-linked banestrike bolters (but in that case, what's the use for Combi-Bolters ? Just ensuring rerolls in overwatch ?), with a potential for more wounds, but we're still talking about Bolters here... Is the Banestrike heavy bolter any good ?

I don't know, but this unit seems kind of weak... The best use I would see for it is as being able to go in Coils of the Hydra without needing a dedicated transport and being able to choose the mutable tactics.

I really do see them as a great vessel for Exodus though. When taking the Banestrike HB and Exodus, you get a 300 points round unit which is quite damaging, very targeted against characters and infantry alike.

 

3) Saboteurs, interesting in paper, but are they worth it ? A single automatic penetrating hit with Dynat (and the combat augment array combo that was heavily discussed) can be pretty annoying against mechanised forces. Also, don't they mess with the CotH ROW ? They don't have the ability to Infiltrate unless with mutable tactics and don't have deep strike without Dynat, so it would force mutable tactics to choose Infiltrate.

 

4) Coils of the Hydra, how good is it ?

It really, really seems to be meant to be played with Alpharius with a flexible mechanized force in order to choose both the most interesting tactic as well as setting the pace of the game. I mean, you almost have complete control over how you pace the game : Electing to go second to know where the enemy will deploy, picking a Mutable Tactic that is interesting for you, then rerolling 4+ to seize the Initiative. Going for Outflank with more punch when you go for Infiltrate/Scout rules. Messing with the enemy's reserves with standard units and having a 50-50 chance of it being your own.

Is it worth it when you don't elect to use the Rewards of Treason ?

Finally, the Troops tax is pretty steep. How do you take the most of it ? 3 Tactical squads with combis or Power Fists in Rhinos ?

 

5) How to do decent anti-tank well in Alpha Legion armies ? Plasma/Melta Support Squads in Rhinos ? Meltabombs Assault Squads ? Powerfist/Chainfists on Lernaean Terminators ?

 

6) What's a good Spartan plan with the Alpha Legion ? Trolling him into not doing as much as he had hoped ? MSUing to mess with the opponent ?

 

Thanks a lot !

 

 

A Lernaean squad with power fists, a power dagger on the champion, and a couple of chainfists is a very tough assault unit.  They're very similar to Justaerin but properly costed.  The main problem is that stubborn is fairly useless on a small squad that shouldn't be losing combat in the first place.  And I wouldn't touch the conversion beamer.

 

Headhunters aren't terrible, but seekers with combi-weapons are much better.  Banestrike rounds are pretty negligible - sniper vets are much better.  Headhunters can wipe out power armour in combat, but you'd be better of taking a dedicated combat unit.  You also waste some of their points when you take Alpharius, since he gives everyone preferred enemy.

 

I don't rate saboteurs at all.  That's mostly just me disliking the gimmicky rules though.

 

I won't run Coils because I don't like the base troops choices for the Alpha Legion, and I really don't like being forced to take 3 of them.  The bonuses are interesting.  I'd give it a go if I didn't mind being lumbered with 3 filler tactical squads.

 

If you're infiltrating, some good anti-tank units are rapiers, support squads or meltabombs on vet squads.  If you're not infiltrating you can do the same as any other legion.

 

Grav Rapiers are great for the Alpha Legion when infiltrating.  I rely mostly on meltabombs and chainfists.  MSU infiltration offers some natural resilience to Spartan deathstars.

[GreyCrow]

Thanks for the prompt replies guys I see that the operatives are everywhere ! Great advices all around I'll take them into consideration... or will I ?

 

What really draws me to the Raven Guard is that as an Infiltration army, they're probably the best and because it's an innate ability you can really build lists around that. What really draws me towards the Alpha Legion is the ability to change completely the strategy depending on the enemy list and I think it's the greatest strength of mutable tactics.

 

Having played Raven Guard since the 5th ed Codex when Scout was a Chapter Tactic, I really loved the ability to be completely unpredictible in my deployment, and I really like the fact that Alpha Legion can be extremely unpredictible in their tactics thanks to mutable. And if I play with AL, I wanted to have an army that could be extremely flexible both early and late game, very MSU. And with the Primarch at 2000 points (playing the Primarchs is my main draw

So, for me dedicated transports are quite mandatory, just to make sure that the whole force remains relatively mobile (and have some kind of protection) regardless of whether I infiltrate or not.

 

Rather than playing to kill the death stars, the goal is rather to kite around them. Making them chase the units through misdirection, redeployments, etc So, like you said, perhaps the Spartan plan in a generalist list is to go MSU, maybe with a couple meltabombs just in case they're really unavoidable, and be a general pain against them

 

I really felt that Coils of the Hydra paired with Alpharius, regardless of whether or not you take "traitor" units from other Chapters would be useful in that regard. What do you guys think about it ?

 

I have a few ideas for 2k points lists, but I'm really wondering about their efficiency and would love if you guys could help out if I post them in the list sections

 

EDIT : Also, another question regarding CotH and the rolls to get first turn and reroll. Is it both or you have to choose one or the other ?

Edited September 23, 2015 by GreyCrow

[SkimaskMohawk]

Gotta point out, Scout was the 6th ed RG tactic, 5th was fleet

[Terminus]

Lernaean Terminators are better than comparably equipped Legion terminators, but they suffer from limiting options. The vokite blasters are probably not worth 7 points each, so it would have been nice if they had an option to swap to a combi-weapon. Power axes are also an awkward choice, since as stated you may as well upgrade them to power fists unless you're really short on points, and having the option of a few maul/sword guys for at initiative attack would have made them that much more flexible. The beamer is a trap choice weapon, pretty pointless.

 

Regarding Headhunters, I also don't really get the hype. Adding Dynat in there so he has preferred enemy and infiltrate is nice, but he's not that big a combat monster to begin with (he's a typical praetor with +1W and -1A).  Also, this was covered before, but it came up again... why is Dynat + dual graviton dreadnoughts = money? He does nothing unless you roll a 6 on that graviton, and as a base AP4 weapon you're not exactly going to be blowing up a lot of stuff anyway.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Terminus

[GreyCrow]

@ Mohawk : You are indeed right ! Finger slipped :D

@Terminus : Indeed !

Regarding the Headhunters, they've got Precision Shots since the 7th ed FAQ for Horus Heresy on the Forgeworld website :) Well, so do Seekers too, but that's something more in their favour :p

 

I really see them as a great delivery vehicle for Exodus. He looks like the Alpha Seeker with rules both allowing him to join, and buff (Stealth/Scout) the Headhunter units. Due to all having Precision Shots, and him having Rending and super Precision shots I feel he's a natural fit for them :) Also, they grant him preferred enemy, making his one shot weapon even more lethal !

The unit really becomes a point sink though at 300 points when you upgrade with a Heavy Bolter with Banestrike... But I kind of have a feeling it's worth it. Apothecarion detachments and annoying IC will be annoyed in return.

 

Out of curiosity, what is the standard game size for 30k ? I've been trying 2k lists with the Primarch, but they really feel super short in points...

[Slips]

2k games are not Primarch Territory, thats 2.5k+

[GreyCrow]

Okay, so you would say that around 2k games, it's more or less equivalent to 1500 points in terms of 40k ? and 2.5k+ are 1850points ?

 

Just to make sure I'm on the right track here :p

 

Well, that is for sure going to help out, but damn for the HQ... I really don't see how to make a Praetor really cool and fit with the AL tactics. My idea was to pick some Consul dude and make Alpharius give out the ROW.

 

I mean, Dynat is great as an AL Themed Praetor. But he's probably going to be in every list ever made...

[Slips]

Consider that in the most recent admech small book, the minimum recomended points limit for standard 30k games is 1750 and that we have a 25% LoW allowance (meaning any primarch above 400pts is illegal in a 2k list) and you can start making reasonably assumptions.

 

 

It changes on an area by area basis but in my neck of the woods we aimed for 2.5k games at their lowest unless playing ZM or City Fight.

[GreyCrow]

Yeah, I see... I've asked the boys in my local area and the standard around here seems to be 3000 points for normal games and 4000 points for large games. Also, it's 500 of LOW points per 2k with a 25% allowance But I'm not really sure it's super worth it depending on the Primarch (Alpharius seems to be more effective the more units are on the table).

 

The more I think about it though, the more I feel Dynat is the man... He's just so trolly !

 

BTW, I posted a list at 2k to get a feel of your insights on the general strategy to see if I'm doing Alpha Legion and 30k right. C&C appreciated ! http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314061-alpha-legion-2k-starter-list/

Edited September 23, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Slips]

Eh math is hard its why i stick to theorycrafting and not mathhammer

[Terminus]

Skorr seems far more trolly in metas when you normally don't get to pick your warlord trait, as well as being economical, and of course Alpharius is the most trolly of them all. What is trolly about Dynat? He's pretty straight-forward. 

[GreyCrow]

Well, giving Deep Strike to a unit in the enemy deployment zone is pretty cool with his warlord trait and bonus, plus he's got a good support ability.

 

Unfortunatley, I completely misread him as being able to hand out Deep Strike to any unit that didn't have it...

 

He seems to synchronize pretty well with large units of Lernaean Terminators that Deep Strike in the enemy deployment zone.

 

Damn, I need to review my list :/

[Terminus]

I don't know about that, they wear Cataphractii armour so they cannot sweep, and the +1 bonus will only be useful once you start punching things the next turn. The most immediate unit that jumps to mind is a support squad with melta-guns. Re-roll scatter and +3 on damage table. Spartans and Typhons will ignore you (albeit most people like to talk up armoured ceramite and then never cough up the 20 points to actually get it), but almost anything else with an armour value is in for a bad time.

[GreyCrow]

You're right, perhaps it's either/or indeed. Meltas do sound good, especially with rerolling the Scatter dice. Maybe we can also look at him as a way to ensure no rerolls on Deep Strike. So many opportunities with Dynat !

 

____

 

I was just thinking about something regarding Coils and Mutable Tactics. I'm not sure that Mutable Tactics can allow you to pick units within the Coils ROW that don't have Dedicated Transports, then give them Infiltrate thanks to Coils.

 

In short, you pick your mutable tactic once the army has already been assembled at the Warlord Traits time, therefore after you have made your detachment. However, Coils says that units without Dedicated transports or the ability to Deep Strike or to Infiltrate cannot be part of the detachment. And as not being part of the detachment, they don't get to benefit from the Mutable Tactics.

[Caillum]

This came up earlier - you can pick Infiltrate as your Mutable Tactics, thereby granting you the prerequisites for Coils.

 

As for why I suggested grav Contemptors - it's because they're awesome! 2 of them can strip a tank's hull points easily (yes, they only get a penetrating hit on a 6, but the game isn't over after it has shot) and next turn can split up, shooting at 2 more and finishing them off in Assault. They will be in the opponents deployment zone getting "The Harrowing" bonuses from Dynat starting Turn 1. Contemptors can cause major headaches for some units and most vehicles, so podding them where you want is pretty useful.

 

Dynat is also good as your 1 compulsory HQ when you run Alpharius, as he only loses the Hammerstrike Assault WT.

[GreyCrow]

This came up earlier - you can pick Infiltrate as your Mutable Tactics, thereby granting you the prerequisites for Coils.

 

As for why I suggested grav Contemptors - it's because they're awesome! 2 of them can strip a tank's hull points easily (yes, they only get a penetrating hit on a 6, but the game isn't over after it has shot) and next turn can split up, shooting at 2 more and finishing them off in Assault. They will be in the opponents deployment zone getting "The Harrowing" bonuses from Dynat starting Turn 1. Contemptors can cause major headaches for some units and most vehicles, so podding them where you want is pretty useful.

 

Dynat is also good as your 1 compulsory HQ when you run Alpharius, as he only loses the Hammerstrike Assault WT.

 

Just to make sure, has this been confirmed by ForgeWorld ? If it's not, iI'm not really sure it's possible. I mean, don't you select your Warlord after your detachments have been made ? I feel that it's just a bit unclear at this point regarding the proper timing od selecting detachments and assembling an army :p

 

Not trying to be provocative or anything, I just want to make sure what's legal or not :p

 

Regarding Dynat, I can really see him work as part of a bait and misdirection strategy, especially in armies with Dedicated Transports. I mean, usually people will assume that units will deploy in their dedicated transports, you can mess the opponent when you go second by saying "my tactical support squad with meltas has Deep Strike", then he might deploy conservatively expecting flankers, then when it's your turn to deploy "Just kidding, I'm just going to Infiltrate it !".

 

I feel it's more about having options than not having them. Even if you place a unit in Deep Strike reserve, you can still place it pretty much wherever your want without having to decide it.

[Terminus]

There is a response posted from Forge World regarding the matter earlier in this thread, and I got the same response on a phone call (although granted while clarifying an unrelated order). RAW aside, the RAI seems to be that as long as when the game starts each of your infantry units had the option to infiltrate, deep strike, or hitch a ride in a dedicated transport, you're good to go.

[GreyCrow]

Okay, awesome ! I guess that settles it :p

[TemujinZero]

The coils / mutable tactics infiltrate issue is just something you have to agree with your opponent.  The wording pretty clearly says no, but FW via email say yes.

 

Another problem with coils is that if you are using mass infiltration, and your opponent doesn't keep anything in reserve, most of the benefits of the RoW are lost.  Mass infiltration makes you king of the deployment phase regardless of any other tricks.  And once your opponent realises that you have 101 ways to mess with their reserves they will just avoid reserving anything.  I think to make coils worthwhile, you have to avoid being locked into taking infiltrate so as to not become predictable.

 

That goes for any other RoW too.  Infiltrate as plan A is fine, but you shouldn't build your list such that you have to infiltrate.  Buy Rhinos for your power armour squads so they're not rendered useless when they can no longer forward infiltrate.  Have squads that can capitalise on counter-attack or tank hunters.

 

A note of caution on Exodus:  He's utterly terrible.  A cool character with interesting looking rules.  But terrible.  The chances of him achieving anything of note in any given game are depressingly bad.  Putting him in a unit of headhunters will just limit their mobility, and he still won't achieve anything.  I think I've posted his percentage chance of taking out a variety of targets in this thread before.

 

I have a question about Autilon Skorr:  what strategic traits are you attracted to?  I looked over the list and didn't see anything that compelling.

[shaun03]

Skorr is good HQ to take,imo. But you really need to build a list around which trait you want to take. Can't really slap together a list than say :cuss it I'll pick this one.

 

I found out after many games some W and a lot L. It better suitted for smaller point levels. He can really boost your army in 1850-2k range.

 

As far traits go, there is no clear winner. It depends on your gaming area and what units you take. Sometimes :cussing with reserves can win the day, in small match some one has x points in flyer or outflanking, and you making them come in at 6+ can turn the tide. Other times infiltion D3 units can be nice to score early kills.

 

One thing about AL list be COTH or Skorr warlord traits. There designed with idea you know who your fighting a head of time. Unlike other legion which ROW and bonus are designed to cover a selected style of warfare against any foe. AL puts more human element in there and let's you dictate how and when they fight. They did a really good job of capturing the fluff and feel to army on the table top.

 

Last game I played I toss in few attack bikes with MM, for there cost there pretty deadly. If selection infiltrate turn 1 turbo boost turn 2 benefit from Dynat 1+ on AV. There great way to add more threats to back field DS melta support sq and if you got points few dreads in back field.

I over look attack bikes for longest time, but in 40k I run them in pairs often, so try it in 30k and there just as effective. Worth a adding to toolbox.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Master of ambush gives 3 not d3, that's the chaos one I think

[Terminus]

I have a question about Autilon Skorr:  what strategic traits are you attracted to?  I looked over the list and didn't see anything that compelling.

Seizing on 5+ (with re-roll) and re-rolling reserves, infiltrating 3 units letting you use other mutable tactics, or even just conqueror of cities if it's the typical "Imperial Ruins" board.

[shaun03]

Master of ambush gives 3 not d3, that's the chaos one I think

Yeah typo on my end

[GreyCrow]

Hello brothers,

 

I wanted to have your opinion on 2 things regarding battles in the Horus Heresy

 

1) Do you feel it is more effective to have multiple types of support units, or to make one strong theme. Example, I both like the Lernaean Terminators as well as the Seekers/Headhunters, but I feel that splitting the forces into two different types of support will make it less coherent and effective on the battlefield. I wanted to have your more experienced take on that.

 

2) Seeker Squads, how do you usually run them ? With Alpha Legion Tactics, I was thinking 9 + Vigilator in a Rhino with combis, so that they're able to Infiltrate/Scout/Move/Do Whatever. In terms of combis, Plasmas seem very awesome against infantry (BS5 + PE means most will hit, wounding on 2+ + Pe means that most will wound), but I was curious about a nasty anti-tank unit with meltas. wouldn't it be overkill to throw 10 meltas at tanks ? I'm more used in a 40k meta with many Rhinos.

 

EDIT : And because I always add a 3rd thing :

 

3) Combi-bolters on the Headhunters. They seem only very good for rerolling overwatch shots, because otherwise they're redundant with the PE of the squad. For 5 points, them seemed interesting, but are they worth it ? The short range of Banestrike rounds looked like countercharges might be a problem, but what is your experience on that ?

Edited September 28, 2015 by GreyCrow