[HH1.0] 30k Alpha Legion Tactics

[Hesh Kadesh]

Indeed it does;

 

Legion Seekers (free) Vet Tacticals and Terminators (+2x Additional Marines) can take banestrike; and Heavy Bolters are included.

 

The problem is wounding on a 6 for their cost. Even with 4 Vet Tac Squads with 2 Heavy Bolters (1040pts, mind) only gets 36 bolter shots, and 24 heavy bolter shots a turn, upping to 72 if within 9" range. Hitting on 3's, that's 24hits (48) and 24 HB.

 

24 = 12 wounds, of which 4 were pseudo rend (48, of which 8)

24 HB = 16 wounds of which 4 were pseudo rend.

 

Against AP3, that's 5.333 saves, leaving 4+2.777 dead (double for short range), and 8 HB saves, leaving 4+4 dead.

 

Without Pseudo rend, that's 9.333 dead

 

That's 9.333 dead versus 14.777 dead in a single turn at 18" range.

 

Issue? They already get that from Sniper. Outflank and Tank Hunters (which doesn't benefit from AP3 on to wound of 6 anyway) are available from the Legion Tactics, Fearless is useful for camping an objective meaning that 18" range isn't that useful if kept in your deployment, while Furious Charge doesn't want to spend time shooting, and the cost of two power weapons in exchange for preventing you from charging (no pistols don't get banestrike) isn't what you want. So, Sniper is really the only rule that Alpha Legion need to take, unless you have some niche expensive Scouting Fearless midtable objective grabber unit costing more than a terminator squad with plasma and power weapons (whom can also scout), then Sniper is what you want.

 

And Sniper isn't forced to Heavy Bolter either, it can take Rotor Cannon for additional shots and range (no 18" limit for banestrike) for cheaper.

 

On Terminators - the additional firepower is brilliant. They can help mow down units - you only really need to look at the maths above to see what 20 TL Bolter Shots can do (nearly 18 hits, means 3 pseudo rends and 6 otherwounds for 5 kills/turn from shooting rather than 3, the upgrade pays for itself in a turn) - but rather that Terminators aren't really necessary for that. It is they who have access to AP2 without risking themselves to powerswords meaning that they are a perfect unit to counter other terminators - and ap3 isn't that useful versus terminators. And with native power weapons can wade through AP3 without needing to take that upgrade anyway.

 

If you're sending them against AP3, by all means, rock out with your banestrikes. But this is 30K - you should have enough AP3 without having to worry about spending upgrades on units which can do that job anyway.

 

In regards to Rites of War, I've always wondered whether you'd be able to take Mor Deythan in a Darkwing Pattern Storm Eagle, Outflanking them to get a pair of TL Lascannon shots into the enemy flank before dropping off a few TL Rending Flamers+Shotguns

 

I'm not sure what to make of Lernaean Terminators.

 

WS5, Stubborn, Hammer of Wrath Grenade Harness, and Power Axe encourages them to assault, while Volkite Chargers are short ranged death, yet have unique access to a Conversion Beamer which only gets better at extreme range.

[Krargan]

Yeah i'm not very impressed with our XXth terminators, they seem to be trying to do very different roles at the same time.

 

I was completely sold on our RoW though, from taking other legions particular units. The only thing about it that confuses me a bit is, we can only take their specific Elites, right? Say for instance if they have a legion specific fast attack or heavy we can't take it? or can we take any of teir legion specific stuff (barring uniques) and it just becomes an elite for us?

 

I was definitely planning on taking a Mor Dethyan unit and using a pretty sniper heavy force. But for some games i was thinking it might not be a bad idea to take a full unit of Iron Warriors specific terminators and infiltrating them, Infiltrating 10 terminators all with cyclone missile launchers seems pretty scary and they come with powerfists that can be upgraded to chainfists and wrecker. The squad ends up being about 575 points though. And can we take their dedicated transports with them? For instance the Darkwing (duck) Storm Eagle with the mor dethyans?

 

I really like the fact that we can take the praetor with the power dagger and praetor's blade for 2 specialist weapons on the cheap.

 

it's a little disappointing that the unique RoW Limits all consul types except for the vigilator, including our legion specific saboteur. i would much rather of been able to take more saboteurs. and has anyone else had any success with either of them, i really like them but after their one-off ability they seem kind of useless, with our legion specific one being better than the generic one. but they don't seem that good on their own, what kind of equipment are people giving them if you are using them?

 

Also has anyone had any luck with using any of the other maleable tactics choices besides infiltrate? the others just don't seem to stand out to me as being very good in any way, but with just using the infiltrate it seems like we are just doing things raven guard could be doing better. 

[1ncarnadine]

I was completely sold on our RoW though, from taking other legions particular units. The only thing about it that confuses me a bit is, we can only take their specific Elites, right? Say for instance if they have a legion specific fast attack or heavy we can't take it? or can we take any of teir legion specific stuff (barring uniques) and it just becomes an elite for us?

 

You can take another Legion's whatever as an Elites choice, so say you could take Grave Wardens (Death Guard Heavy Support) under Rewards of Treason and it would fill an Elites slot in your force instead of HS.

 

I was definitely planning on taking a Mor Dethyan unit and using a pretty sniper heavy force. But for some games i was thinking it might not be a bad idea to take a full unit of Iron Warriors specific terminators and infiltrating them, Infiltrating 10 terminators all with cyclone missile launchers seems pretty scary and they come with powerfists that can be upgraded to chainfists and wrecker. The squad ends up being about 575 points though. And can we take their dedicated transports with them? For instance the Darkwing (duck) Storm Eagle with the mor dethyans?

 

Yeah this came up pretty recently and someone even e-mailed ForgeWorld. Any Dedicated Transports count as part of the same stolen unit choice/force org slot so Rewards of Treason Mor Deythan can take a Darkwing as well (all bundled up as one Elites choice, as noted above).

[PastelAvenger]

I was thinking of putting a Praetor on a bike and sticking him with some outriders, by paying for the Sargeant I have someone to accept challenges and let the Praetor rip through the squad they charge. Also I'm not sure on the exact wording when you buy Banestrike Ammo (not got my book to hand) but couldn't you then use them in the bikes twin linked bolter?

[Hesh Kadesh]

They do not apply to bikes, as they "apply to either a boltgun or combi-bolter they are carrying". However, if you argue that the bike being part of their equipment is being "carried", then technically, yes, you can apply it. I do not personally think it is worth it, however.

 

However, note that the Outriders/Command Squads do not get access to Banestrike Bolter Rounds, and it's only the Praetor.

[PastelAvenger]

They do not apply to bikes, as they "apply to either a boltgun or combi-bolter they are carrying". However, if you argue that the bike being part of their equipment is being "carried", then technically, yes, you can apply it. I do not personally think it is worth it, however.

 

However, note that the Outriders/Command Squads do not get access to Banestrike Bolter Rounds, and it's only the Praetor.

The Outrider Squad would probably be totting Plasma Guns to be honest.

 

It's an awkward one with regards to the bike. I might email FW and see if they have any insight.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Another way of looking at it is; 

 

it is not a bolter, it is a Space Marine bike with Twin-linked Bolter.

[PastelAvenger]

True, anyways regardless of the Banestrike issue I think he could be a pretty good force to be reckoned with using infiltrate.

[depthcharge12]

Has anyone considered using destroyers?

 

They'd be pretty useful since you can infiltrate them up to their optimum range, and if they get charged first turn you have rad and phosphex grenades not to mention counter attack too.

[PastelAvenger]

Has anyone considered using destroyers?

They'd be pretty useful since you can infiltrate them up to their optimum range, and if they get charged first turn you have rad and phosphex grenades not to mention counter attack too.

Destroyers offer good debuffs for killing troops and a small squad will help any Infiltrating AL list. If you're going to take Destroyers though you should really consider a Moritat as well. The squad will come in around 400pts but it will make back it's points easily enough.

[shaun03]

Banstrike rounds 50/50 imo fits the fluff but can be left out, as write up on top of page suggest, we have enough tools got ap3 as do most legions. If normal marines could take them and mix with furry it legion than, yeah than they could move closer to auto include.

 

vets with sniper, I have had some success running as hrassing unit.

 

FC with army wide infiltration is nice, brings me back to old days went blood angle could run all scout force infiltrate in than pop off the FC charge.

 

I am litter dispoionted in our term, they seem ill though out, like they want to get close and unleash some hate, but at same they can get there :cuss push in by other legion unqie terms.

 

 

How is our relice? Saw a write up on but has one fielded it yet?

 

Hopefully the event only model is sign of things to come for us, waiting on legion models is killing me.

[PastelAvenger]

I've not fielded the relic but I can only really see it going on a Moitat, there is no way I would spend 40pts on a pistol unless I was truly dedicated at getting that unit into range. I have seen people stick it on a Praetor and it's just a waste.

 

Headhunters have always worked for me, but I will agree just taking Banestrike ammo isn't amazing. I'm hoping I. Future editions they will give Banestrike Ammo rending and not this AP3 rubbish it has now.

[shaun03]

thats costly relic for what it does, In a fluff list it may merit taken.

 

Rending would be nice, or letting hit at ap3 on 4+. After all if it's meant to be marine killer it should have better success rate at killing them.

[depthcharge12]

Are bolt pistols able to use the ammo?

 

I know it's not worth the points, but you could do a dual bolt pistol moritat with the ammo.

[shaun03]

Any one fielding super heavies?

I am not huge tank player I rather go with fliers but I thinking on adding a super heavy to list.

[PastelAvenger]

Are bolt pistols able to use the ammo?

I know it's not worth the points, but you could do a dual bolt pistol moritat with the ammo.

Not sure about pistols, I have sent an email to FW to see if it's useable in Bikes and Jetbike.

 

Any one fielding super heavies?

I am not huge tank player I rather go with fliers but I thinking on adding a super heavy to list.

With Super Heavies I guess it will all depend on the Army composition, an infiltrating army will gain more benefit from taking Alpharius. If you're taking anything else then I guess it's all down to preference and points. I personally love the Glaive.

[shaun03]

Yeah when fielding low I always take aplharius mainly cause I haven't gotten around to picking up anything else.

 

The glaive looks cool, so does the fellblade. Point wise I was leaning towards typhoon being the grand daddy of the vindicator and dropping auto death pie plates seamed like something that was good fit.

 

But matching a super heavy to my list and play style key. I have proxy a few super heavy with my 13th legion before I sold them off but it was straight forward match with foot slogging death guard.

 

I infiltrating force is hard to justify how a super heavy snuck up on them. But a out flanking heavy could work and not scream cheese as much as infiltrate super heavy laying down all its fire power at close range.

[PastelAvenger]

The thing is the LoW doesn't get to outflank or infiltrate so it's stuck in your deployment zone and will waste a turn trying to get to the action, this is why I only see Alpharius as an option for an infiltrating force.

 

Alpha legion are good at killing troops so I would suggest the Cerberus, it's in the same points bracket as a Typhon but the only thing that let's it down is that the main cannon is only S10

[Hesh Kadesh]

The thing is the LoW doesn't get to outflank or infiltrate so it's stuck in your deployment zone and will waste a turn trying to get to the action, this is why I only see Alpharius as an option for an infiltrating force.

 

Alpha legion are good at killing troops so I would suggest the Cerberus, it's in the same points bracket as a Typhon but the only thing that let's it down is that the main cannon is only S10

I would NEVER suggest a Cerberus. It's god awful at what it does for its price. It needs Strength D to cope at that level. Some try to say thatwith Tank Hunter from Orth he becomes useable, but that's Iron Hands. And wasting a turn trying to get to the action? Deploy it right, and it won't need to, have you seen the range on those guns?

 

The Falchion is the best at killing general vehicles because Strength D, while the Glaive with Lascannons does the best at savaging Superheavies because 2-4 AP2 Haywire hits and a S8 AP2 hit (on side armour if possible) that never misses and ignores cover plus the 4 TL Lascannons. While the Cerberus is 110-230pts cheaper than those other options, the other options are actually capable at doing a very effective job. The Cerberus... can just about cope with heavily armoured normal vehicles, and take a bit of a punishing - but at the same time, a pair of Venators can do a better job and be more flexible.

[PastelAvenger]

 

The thing is the LoW doesn't get to outflank or infiltrate so it's stuck in your deployment zone and will waste a turn trying to get to the action, this is why I only see Alpharius as an option for an infiltrating force.

Alpha legion are good at killing troops so I would suggest the Cerberus, it's in the same points bracket as a Typhon but the only thing that let's it down is that the main cannon is only S10

 

I would NEVER suggest a Cerberus. It's god awful at what it does for its price. It needs Strength D to cope at that level. Some try to say thatwith Tank Hunter from Orth he becomes useable, but that's Iron Hands. And wasting a turn trying to get to the action? Deploy it right, and it won't need to, have you seen the range on those guns?

 

The Falchion is the best at killing general vehicles because Strength D, while the Glaive with Lascannons does the best at savaging Superheavies because 2-4 AP2 Haywire hits and a S8 AP2 hit (on side armour if possible) that never misses and ignores cover plus the 4 TL Lascannons. While the Cerberus is 110-230pts cheaper than those other options, the other options are actually capable at doing a very effective job. The Cerberus... can just about cope with heavily armoured normal vehicles, and take a bit of a punishing - but at the same time, a pair of Venators can do a better job and be more flexible.

He did say that he was looking for a LoW around the Typhons price range both of your suggestions aren't. Forcing a tank to snap fire for a turn can effectively take it out of the game for a turn. It's not the optimal choice I will admit I just think it's a better choice than the Typhon since Alpha Legion have no problem mincing troops. I do a feel however that a pair of Venerators are better bang for your buck.

[shaun03]

Good point I totally forgot they stuck starting in deployment zone.

 

Point cost I would like to stick close to typhoon level mainly cause I don't want to compromise the rest of my list my adding point heavy tank.

 

Yeah I looking a solid anti tank/ super heavy build. As killing marines isn't a problem it when I am facing supper heavy and Mec builds I tend to syuggle unless I talyor and the tank hunter for army wide ruled.

 

My though's for thypoon was its cheap and huge distraction and if pouring there fire power at it there not hitting the bulk of my force. But having it start in the back field will take out firing range and plus really don't want to shoot that pie plate forward when rest of my army could be hit by bad roll.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Typhon's are still the better option. 

 

Alpha Legions one thing stopping them from being top tier, is that their benefits that would make them top tier can't stack. You can say how well they kill infantry until the cows come home, but you're doing it wrong that way.

 

This is where I'm coming from.

 

The core of an army is 2 Tactical Squads, at it's cheapest. This is T4, 3+ Saves. Throw in the Centurion to make it a legal list. This is 350pts, butt nekkid. To kill this, you are going to need X. This unit tax does nothing. 20 Bolter shots adds up over game, but against other T4 3+ Saves, it's nothing. It's a very expensive 20 Bolters as well, but as all armies have to pay this, it's not so bad. However, to make that "tax" (which is essentially an unnecessary punishment model and points bloat/money grab) less of a tax, and more of a useable unit, you have to take "advantage" of the "discount" resulting in you getting two 20 man Tactical Squads, leaving enough of a discount to pick up the Apothecaries which turn it into a viable defensive bunker.

 

This viable defensive bunker as a result of the 33% less damage coming at it is requires not just the 2X value of incoming shots to kill it (whether that is in number of turns, or points investment to kill it), but nearer 2.7X, or 3X just to make it easier on the maths to kill that same unit. And you MUST kill these units. If they lose these objective holders, their other units which just so happen to score (Plasma Seekers, Terminators etc) are forced to pigeonhole themselves into that role they were not designed for. While they are no less effective at it, they are just much less efficient at it.

 

This means that both armies have at least 3x their investment to kill their opposite number. This is where people misunderstand Alpha Legion. They think because they can kill infantry easier they should take infantry killing power, but the only benefit of that is that they don't need to spend that same 3X investment on killing them. What they should do is ignore that their rules support killing infantry, and find the most effective units elsewhere in the list. Killing infantry, and T4 3+ Saves is the name of the game. It's the basis of 30K, with the odd foray into needing to kill 2+ saves, or the odd T4.5/T5* model.

 

Now, think about the investment made into killing T4, 3+ Save models. Put them up against 2+ Saves. If you're using/relying on AP3 weapons to clear out those Marines, that investment is wasted on 2+ Saves. With AP4 or higher weapons, the reduction in damage output isn't as high as going from AP3 vs 3+ saves to AP3 vs 2+ saves, but it's still reducing incoming damage by nearly 20%. Against T5* models, your standard Bolters etc take a reduction in damage equitable to around 20% as well. Lets not talk about the T5* 2+ Saves, while FNP with T5* cuts even more into resource allocation (and hence you can see why Iron Hands and Imperial Fists are top tier - their defenses are applicable regardless of opponent).

 

This means you're going to need to shift your focus of AP2 elsewhere - and AP2 or lower is now a scarcity in 30K, and required for a few distinct purposes - either slaughtering 2+ Saves, or more often, for getting that explosion on an enemy vehicle. Now, you've got yourself some AP2 from somewhere.

 

Put that unit in cover, whether it's terrain or partially blocked line of sight. Start reconfiguring all of your maths. 

 

I'm not going to explain it, but a defensive unit with Feel No Pain, T5*, 21 bodies, and Cover won't be moved. Give it a couple of courses of Artificer Armour if you're feeling like you need something to tank hits as well (using Look Out, Sir! to keep them alive against those shots you don't want to/can't tank), and it's pretty much guaranteed to stay there - doubly so if you pop on something like the Chaplain (this is a defensive character, do not be fooled! Defensive Grenades from the Boarding Shield, Another 2+ Save, Zealot, Combi-Flamers and Meltabombs turn it into a massive counter assault bunker) into that unit. Calculations get more and more swung against the person making the offensive decisions depending on the list.

 

Hence, offensively minded armies, such as the Alpha Legion still struggle, despite their ability to handle Infantry as a whole rather effectively.

 

When designing a list like the Legion list which doesn't really allow for Redundancy in too many places in the list building stage, you've got to ensure what you take can take on what it can. All of those variations resulting in needing ever more investment or reallocation of resources during a battle, you say goodbye to it. At lower points levels, when you're looking at a Typhon, you simply remove all of those considerations. Whether something has 2+ saves, or Feel No Pain, or T5*, or Cover, even spacing between units, all of that is covered by its S10 AP1 7" Pie Plate of erasing all trace of dangerous units. With an effective 36/48" range, you're going to be able to take on ANY scoring unit in the game, with exclusion of those sat in zooming flyers until the last turn. 

 

The Typhon, for the cost of taking up your Lords of War, selection (remember that at ~2800pts+ you can take 2 because it is a War Machine and not an Engine of War, and as superheavies you don't need to worry about the weapons being destroyed), is a gigantic rubber/eraser that clears entire battle fields. A radius 3.5" template, with 4" allowance for scatter means that on a 12.5mm base, provided you target the base, means that you need to roll a miss and a 9+ on a 2d6 to actually miss the model you are attempting to Snipe Out as well.

 

It is a beast of a tank, and a firm favourite for me which you can't go wrong with. After the Glaive, (which just flat out NOPES! enemy Super Heavies), the Typhon is tied with the Falchion for second favourite. It is the ultimate in all comers tanks whose only let down outside of its range (and even then, a 48" threat range isn't exactly that bad) is that it's unable to take on Flyers. But that's why you have taken Deredeo's, right?

[shaun03]

Soild break down, top teir builds are still evolting it's hard to say which legion can be crowned yet. Yeah there some soild front runners, but with only a hand full legions and options still mounting is up for grabs.

 

Our options not stacking was s balancing issue it would be OP if we could take every option at once. Granted our primach is probably the strongest for army wife buffs and can hold his own. Not a real beatstick but he wasn't meant to be, more impact for the whole army as posed to fire and forget.

 

I tend to favor filers my self as not woriried about the sky's. That deredeos thing looks ugly doubt I'll grab one. Comptor with dule assault cannons is my favor build, plus out legion model is great looking.

 

You speak highly of typhoon guessing it work out well for you.

[Emperor's Furor]

I'm beginning to think more about my force and how it'll develop. At the moment I have a contemptor with a twin link lascannon, a 5 man recon squad I want to make into a headhunter squad but I'm not sure whether to give the sergeant a fancy weapon, two apothecaries and a captain+standard bearer as I fancy a command squad just for looks.

 

I was thinking of having a solid infiltrating line of breachers with the command squad and apothecaries backed up by some battle tanks or artillery, but then having a strong outflanking force. A 10 man headhunter squad outflanking in a rhino, with perhaps a terminator squad in a transport. I was also thinking of having some misdirection with maybe a deathstorm drop pod or two and then dropping my contemptor down in a pod to support the outflanking force.

Edited February 26, 2015 by WoT

[depthcharge12]

Does anyone run Dynat with an aggressive drop pod army? I thought his rules benefit marines and dreads in the enemy deployment zone pretty well.