[HH1.0] Imperial Fists Tactics

[Terminus]

Yeah I am not fond of missile launchers or lascannons on heavy support squads. My experience is mostly limited to culverins, and also as an Alpha Legionaire I can place the building in a commanding position and infiltrate into it, so the whole mobility issue is somewhat circumvented since a central location and 45" range pretty much covers the board. Even so, it's more of a "fun" unit, since 8 culverins, artificer Sgt, and bunker with ammo dump comes to 360 points, which is almost enough for 3 vindicators. A caliver equivalent is 280 but only shoots 16 times at 30" rather than 32 at 45".

 

Regarding Laser Vindicators, if rapiers can move and fire (as RAW suggests), they are better, but in either case Vindicators and Whirlwind Scorpius tanks are very cost effective HS choices. HS in general is about vehicles. The culverin death squad and melta dickbikes are the only Legiones Astartes I use in that slot.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Terminus

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

 

Unfortunately, I wouldn't really recommend either lascannons or missiles.

Heavy support squads are very squishy, being no more sturdy than tactical marines.

Bare stock with heavy bolters, they are 135pts. With missile launchers or lascannons they are 160pts or 235pts respectively.

A laser destroyer vindicator is 130pts. It's more resilient, when amping the array for 3 shots, it will hit with just as many shots and do more damage per connected shot than either heavy support options. It can also scoot away from an incoming threat much more effectively if need be.

The discussion here pertains to heavy support squads in an AV14 bunker, so they are more durable than the Vindicator, while having quite a bit more firepower. Zero mobility, however, unless you add a hatch or something.

Oh I caught that. I can see the argument for the bunker being more durable, but a six man heavy support squad with lascannons costs more than two laser Vindicators before you even start to factor in the added cost of the bunker, ammo dump and whatevs else. Six lascannons, even with tank Hunter is appreciably less firepower than six twin linked laser destroyer shots.

The great about the bunker is it forces the opponent to commit some resources to deal with it.

No more resources than a single land raider would require, while having zero options for mobility or a cover save.

Don't get me wrong, a bunkered up lascannon squad can be alright in certain circumstances, but it's really similar to the Stormlord loaded with stuff shooting out of it; it's strong in a few situations, but it's a pretty big concentration of points that isn't super efficient, and has quite a few common hard counters.

That's my point though... Your opponents have to dedicate some resource(s) to deal with the bunker which takes pressure off other units.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Black Orange

[K3nn3rs]

Custodes are just around the corner.

Would their inclusion in a IF / non siege of Terra list be fluffy?

 

I'd also be interested in people's views on the inclusion of a Knights Errant in a IF list both from a fluff perspective and its utility in a list (I see them as buff characters).

Edited September 20, 2016 by K3nn3rs

[Soldier of Dorn]

Custodes are just around the corner.

Would their inclusion in a IF / non siege of Terra list be fluffy?

 

I'd also be interested in people's views on the inclusion of a Knights Errant in a IF list both from a fluff perspective and its utility in a list (I see them as buff characters).

 

1. Maybe? You could probably justify it somehow, and probably easily too. For my part (and I do actually have a SoT-set army,) I'll probably only run 5 at most as allies, though I do want one of the shields they have to use as a Vigil-pattern Storm Shield.

 

2. They don't really appeal to me personally, but they'd be a fluffy inclusion I think. They're definitely useful as buff characters as you say, 'specially if you kit them out with Apothecary/Librarian loadouts as many people do. I just don't think they're worth the Victory condition drawbacks they impose.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Custodes are just around the corner.

Would their inclusion in a IF / non siege of Terra list be fluffy?

I'd also be interested in people's views on the inclusion of a Knights Errant in a IF list both from a fluff perspective and its utility in a list (I see them as buff characters).

K-E is a huge force multiplier and rocks attached to deep striking terminators.

[Lord Blackwood]

I just find Knight Errants to be Garbage if you actually want to win games anything that can put you in a " your best bet is a tie "  situation is not something you should take if you actually want to win games. 

Just my  personal thoughts on the subject. 

[Slips]

They are a Legit way to get past a few of the RoWs with Consul Limitations though like Stone Gauntlet.

[Runefyre]

K-E's are also super fluffy and a great way to add some variety to the monotony of building an entire army in the same scheme.

 

But they're basically limited to fluffy campaigns imo. Everybody should try one of FW's HH campaigns at least once, they're frickin' amazing!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They can be a bit over the top. If I have a tight game I just choose the easiest objective for the K-E to achieve... so far not a problem when I use him.

[noigrim]

Played today a 40k game with two laser devastator squads, ad they killed at least four units so I'd be taking that in HSS.

In 40k it's only 150pts tough in the heresy it's so epensive that you culd get a laser destroyer vindi with full gear for that...

[K3nn3rs]

I'd love to make more use of IF HSS but my main issue is their survivability against the cost we pay. I don't often have the spare points to pay for the fortification to help keep them alive...

[K3nn3rs]

Does anyone have much experience with Command Squads?

 

I want to run a list at a narrative event and with my 'unique' IF colour scheme named characters are out.

 

I want to run Pride of the Legion, at its core will be;, a large squad of terminators with storm shields in a spartan with a Chaplain and Primus Medicae in support, a smaller squad of terminators in a land raider and a squad of vets in a rhino.

 

I love the modelling opportunity of a command squad. With the recent changes to the apothercary upgrade options and the command squads fearless banner I thought they could make a nice little delivery unit for a tooled up Praetor (with out the need of another expensive transport).

 

I've had a lot of success in 40K with a bike based command squad and wanted to try it out in 30K:

 

Praetor: Paragon blade (master-crafted); thunder hammer; combi-weapon; melta bombs; digital lasers; iron halo; Space Marine bike 245

• 4 Space Marine Chosen: 4× combi-bolter; 4× power weapon; 4× combat shield; Space Marine bikes; + 1 Standard Bearer (power fist; combat shield) 325

 

Apothecarion Detachment

• Apothecary: power sword; augury scanner; Space Marine bike 80

 

650 points

Gives me:

12" move, 2+/ 5++ with 4+ jink, WS 5, T5 and FnP against most enemy weapons, fearless!

 

Combi plasma or melta to provide firesupport.

Axes/ shields = looks cool and provides A3 (base), AP2, 5++

 

I went for bikes over jet bikes because jet bikes seem very expensive (points and money) with no discount for already having a 2+ save.

 

Thoughts?

Edited October 9, 2016 by K3nn3rs

[Caillum]

Bikes are an awesome option for Command Squads. You pay only 40 points for WS5, 2 attacks, 2+ saves AND a 2-Wound Standard Bearer! :) They're also much more inclined to be a combat unit, where as a Jetbike Squad wants to be at range.

 

Why have you taken combi-bolters on your bike squad? The bike itself comes with one! Unless they're meant to be combi-weapons, which Command Squads can't take (though I still think that it's a typo - who would pay 10 points for a twin-linked bolter?!)...

 

Otherwise, you have got it nailed down! :)

[noigrim]

I'm doubting between an apothecary or an extra lascannon on a support squad, ideas?

[K3nn3rs]

Depends on what unit the apothercary is supporting and how many lascannons are already in the squad.

 

I'd say 5-6 lascannons are needed as a minimum.

Edited October 12, 2016 by K3nn3rs

[Charlo]

Seeing as the lascannons get Tank hunter - every shot is incredibly potent.

 

So I'd say go for an Apoth - as you'll keep them alive longer.

[K3nn3rs]

If the apothercary is to support the heavy support squad I'd suggest a bunker is a better investment, depending on your style/ list it's also very fluffy for IF.

[K3nn3rs]

Has anyone had any experience with Caestus Assault Rams?

 

I'm thinking of taking one in my SG list (see the Army list page for more detail) to add some much needed mobility.

 

The plan is to put storm shield terminators and a KE in it.

[Slips]

For SG, a Spartan would be better since that starts on the board turn 1 instead of having to roll for reserves on turn 2 and fly on from your table edge and only permit a T3 Assault at the earliest.

[K3nn3rs]

For SG, a Spartan would be better since that starts on the board turn 1 instead of having to roll for reserves on turn 2 and fly on from your table edge and only permit a T3 Assault at the earliest.

Agreed but I already have one Spartan in the list. I wanted to avoid storm eagles as I want them in a further project (I want to avoid replicating the expensive models too much) and though an assault ram do the job as its different/ cool/ and fits the boarding action theme.

 

That said theirs likely a reason for it not being seen that much - over costed?

 

Is dual Spartans too much? One would be loaded with the same terminators/ KE mentioned above and the other one would have Polux/ Chaplain/apothercary and Warders in.

[Slips]

The Caestus is expensive but not really. Its an Av13 Flyer (pretty much non-existent outside of Superheavies) with a 5++ in the Front Arc and can carry 10 Bulky Units no problem. It also has the pretty good Magna Melta and can be given Missile Launchers for Krak shots. Too, it can be given an Auxiliary Drive to prevent immobilization.

 

The only problem is that its a flyer and subject to all the downsides or upsides associated with the unit type.

 

You could go ahead and just try it if you want to.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Has anyone had any experience with Caestus Assault Rams?

 

I'm thinking of taking one in my SG list (see the Army list page for more detail) to add some much needed mobility.

 

The plan is to put storm shield terminators and a KE in it.

 

The soonest you can charge is turn 3... really not worth IMO.

[K3nn3rs]

Is turn 3 Assault that bad...?

 

It gives you 2 turns to open up dedicated transports and get your assault units into the right position.

 

How often do you actually get into Assault by turn 2?

[Slips]

Pretty much every one of my Games is a turn 2 assault.

 

Turn 3 (at the earliest if using a flyer) is "bad" since its points of your army (usually a substantial one) doing nothing and contributing nothing to the game at hand. You'd be better off replacing them with something thats immediately effective so that your opponent doesnt have a numerical advantage that he can press from the get-go.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Charlo]

I really like the Caestus, but the flyer rules inherant problems are certainly there.

 

Funnily enough using it in Iron Warriors is super valid because Pertruabo can not only ride in it (technically TDA armour) but he can bring it on from Turn 1.

 

Sky-shield landing pad is an option though - also adds a nice bit of platform for your heavy squads etc.