[HH1.0] Imperial Fists Tactics

[noigrim]

In fear of alpha leion trolling I only plan on using drop pods 

[Terminus]

Alpha Legion never trolls, especially not our good brothers of the VIIth.

 

By the way, the Siege of Terra and Iron Cage were an inside job!

 

Proof:

 

http://i.4cdn.org/tg/1476355900136.jpg

 

Just thought you should know!

[noigrim]

Legio Mortis can't melt imperial walls :o

[Flint13]

Anthony Hopkins and R. Lee Ermey do look a little fancifully suspicious, don't they? :lol:

[Obscura]

Siege of Terra, Never Forget.

[K3nn3rs]

I know I'm getting ahead of myself and that I need to,wait for the confirmed 30K rules but....

 

I'm really exited about using a Guardian Squad to anchor my breachers in my SG list!

 

5 X Custodes, 4 X shields and 1 X vexilla to create the fearless bubble and the captain with a guardian spear to give 4 X WS6 S6 AP2 attacks!

[Soldier of Dorn]

I'm more excited to have a source of cool looking storm shields for my Termies without having to go Templar (mind you, there's nothing wrong with Templar, but they don't really fit my theme.)

[K3nn3rs]

I'm more excited to have a source of cool looking storm shields for my Termies without having to go Templar (mind you, there's nothing wrong with Templar, but they don't really fit my theme.)

Check out ML shields - there's some links in the alternative Breacher shields discussion.

 

I got some awesome round shields (slightly wider then there Breacher shields) which are perfect for storm shields - or wait until the FW ones drop....

[K3nn3rs]

I also think Phalanx Warder shields work well as storm shields.

[Lord Blackwood]

There are two ways to deliver assault units in this format that are viable.

 

The drop pod variants where you bring them in turn one and assault turn two

 

And the raider / Spartan variant.

[Leoric]

Greetings!

 

As Prospero is out (and hopefully I will get my hands on a copy in a few weeks) I may make a reappearance in Heresy after a long time. I started to think about a small Imperial Fists taskforce, maybe even some "Defenders of Terra" stuff, as Custodes are in the new box... I have some spare Legionaries from the Calth box, and with the 30 Tacticals/Veterans from Prospero I think the backbone of this new army is already there. But there remain some questions still, on how to expand them further.

 

I would try to do a thematic, yet playable (not unbeatable, but the one that carries the potential of greatness) force.

 

- As Heavy Support I think I would love to have some Vindicators. I never had any, as in 40k everybody told me to avoid them, but I think they would suit the siege-theme. Would be a pair of the regular ones any good? Alternatively I have some leftover Missile Launchers from the Calth Box, which I could use on a Heavy Support Squad

- What is your opinion on the Phalanx Wardens? I read some lists here on B&C, but nobody seems to love them.

- I thought about two or three units of regular Tactical Marines in Rhinos to form the Troop Choices. If I didn't want to go fully PotL these seem the most obvious choice.

- My elites would be Terminators (not sure to go shooty or stabby) and some Rapiers for AT. I try to avoid Dreadnoughts this time as my Iron Hands have them, and I want to try something new.

 

Alternatively I could go fully Shattered Legion, and mix IF with some BA and WS elements...

[Tiger9gamer]

Greetings!

 

 

- What is your opinion on the Phalanx Wardens? I read some lists here on B&C, but nobody seems to love them.

 

 

Just looking at them compared to breachers, they just don't have a lot that make them feel "right" in my oppinon. They can all take power axes, but they all have 1 attack each. They can take cheaper special weapons, but they are more expensive base than the breachers. The only thing they have that is cool is the "Shield wall" Thing, but it's only +1 weapon skill in combat if they all stand together. They just feel like a mess, and every time I look or think about taking them I just say "Screw it, breachers are probably already good enough"

[Gothical]

I'm currently thinking about starting a Heresy army and have a copy of Betrayal at Calth that's been kicking around for a while. I'm considering the Imperial Fists (and Alpha Legion as an opposing force, but they'll have to wait until I can get an airbrush so Fists have won possession of this set). As such, I've got a couple of questions about what I can do with the models in the set.

 

With some light conversion work I think it would be possible to give the Contemptor a Multi-Melta, Dreadnought CCW & Plasma Blaster - is this a reasonable set-up, both in the lower-point games I'd likely be playing and in larger games once I have a decent collection? The only inbuilt weapon I don't reckon I can convert well is the Graviton Gun, and the kit has the Kheres to use instead of the Multi-Melta.

 

The Terminators - I doubt I'm going to be able to get a weapons upgrade kit for a long time. As such, do you think that Combi-Bolters, Lightning Claws & Grenade Harness would make for a good MEQ-shredding unit (Chainfist on Sergeant for challenges/anti-Contemptor duty)? I assume the Assault Cannon is a good upgrade but I've not seen it mentioned much?

 

Would it be better to go with 2x Tactical Squads (for BS5 Fury of the Legion) & 1x Veteran Tactical Squad (unsure of set-up - Sniper & Heavy Bolters does look interesting, especially with the Mk.II Apothecary model I have that can take an Augury Scanner), or with 3x Veteran Tactical Squads with one of the HQs as a Delegatus/Praetor to enable that (and if so, what is the best way to build 3 squads without ending up with models I can't use effectively later on, such as 2 Missile Launcher guys or multiple Heavy Bolter guys)?

 

Lastly, I have the "Space Marines Legion Centurion with Early Crusade Honours" model & rules, who could be quite fun with a more combat-oriented Veteran Squad (Meltas/Flamers, a sprinkling of Power Weapons, Power Fist Sergeant) as with the Weaponmasters skill they would all be WS5 & re-rolling 1s To Wound in combat. However, I have read melee-based Veteran Tacticals become rather pointless in larger collections where Templar Brethren are better, and I don't want to end up "wasting" models.

 

Thanks for any advice - the B@C set is turning out to be surprisingly restrictive in terms of kit (for example, I wanted to make a 5-man Plasma Tactical Support Squad but it doesn't look like there are quite enough Plasma Guns) which is making this a little frustrating.

[Erren]

I don't play Imperial Fists (though with my new BoP box I'm considering it), but I've read some and I don't get the fascination with heavy bolters for IF vet squads. They have the sniper rule, so the extra strength isn't helping you. It still isn't AP3, so marines get their saves. Is the 1-2 extra shots versus a bolter really worth 20 points? Am I missing something?

 

Another consideration for you, Gothical: build two basic tactical squads and then use the other bodies as potential special weapon marines if you decide you want to field them as vets. Maybe have a couple different sergeant loadouts. That way you can try either 2x10 Tactical squads or 2x10 Veteran squads. If you're playing smaller games, those plus the terminators should be sufficient scoring units. Or if you don't like that, try 2x10 Squads of your choice and grab some more special weapons off eBay for a Tactical Support Squad or two.

[Slips]

The Base Strength Value of a Weapon overrides the Sniper Rule when you would otherwise be wounding on better.

 

So an S5 Heavy Bolter with Sniper would still wound T4 on a 3+ but T6 on a 4+ instead of a 5+ That, and unlike other special weapons, you're still BS5 with them since its a Bolter Weapon.

With Ap4 it does give you shots that innately pass through Solar Auxilia Saves while sniper still lets you chance at Ap2 which those 1-2 extra shots increase the chance of occurring.

In a Rhino, 2 of them give you 6 Shots out the top hatch with Sniper, possibly at 36" range. They really should be 10 Points but it is what it is.

 

+++

 

For Dreadnoughts in 30k in general, I'd NEVER give them a Multimelta. Its never worth it on the chassis and A Single S8 shot even at BS5 isn't going to be that much of a game changer since with Armoured Ceramite, you're no longer able to get pens on Av14.

 

For In-Hand Weapons, it doesnt really matter how you model them. No one really looks inside the hand to see if its the correct weapon.

 

That said, My preferred Generic Setup for one is either Chainfist and Fist with 2 Grav Guns or Kheres, Chainfist and Grav.

 

+++

 

Realistically speaking, you're rarely ever going to get a Fury of the Legion off. Having ours at BS5 is nice but its nothing spectacular.

 

For Terminators, if you want a "Generalist" unit to make use of Deepstriking, its 5x Combi-Weapons and 4x Power Fists, 1x Chainfist, Teleportation Transponder all in Cataphractii that works the best.

 

If you're sending them after 3+ saves - which seems like a waste since we have Templar for that - Lightning Claws and Volkite Chargers might be better at wounding them and/or forcing saves. Grenade Harness would only be used if you're charging into terrain so might as well take it.

 

The Illastus Assault Cannon is wonky for me. Its neat but its not amazing. Take it if you want to but NEVER give it to a unit thats going to be taking Storm Shields to punch other terminators.

 

+++

 

For Imperial Fists specifically, Combat Vets are not worth it. Templar do it better for roughly the same cost when it comes to shredding MEQ, Storm Shield Terminators do it better when punching other Terminators.

 

Too, the Special Consul I don't see a point in. A Forge Lord is an infinitely better investment since you get Rad Grenades, a Servo-Arm and the ability to Purchase a Sol-Glove whihc is a non-specialist Ap1 Power Fist. Same Weapon Skill, more utility, more CC punch. You pay a bit more but its worth it. In Artificer Armour with a Refractor Field and Cyber Familiar he's also rocking a 2+/4++ and can Sweep whilst being able to fill compulsory slot when not wanting to run a RoW.

 

If you're after a Combat Character, Sigismund is hard to go wrong with.

 

+++

 

Me personally, I do everything in my power to avoid taking basic tactical squads especially if they're going to be in Rhinos. For not all that much more, you can instead take a RoW that unlocks vets as troops who do more.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Gothical]

For Dreadnoughts in 30k in general, I'd NEVER give them a Multimelta. Its never worth it on the chassis and A Single S8 shot even at BS5 isn't going to be that much of a game changer since with Armoured Ceramite, you're no longer able to get pens on Av14.

 

For In-Hand Weapons, it doesnt really matter how you model them. No one really looks inside the hand to see if its the correct weapon.

 

That said, My preferred Generic Setup for one is either Chainfist and Fist with 2 Grav Guns or Kheres, Chainfist and Grav.

 

+++

 

Realistically speaking, you're rarely ever going to get a Fury of the Legion off. Having ours at BS5 is nice but its nothing spectacular.

 

For Terminators, if you want a "Generalist" unit to make use of Deepstriking, its 5x Combi-Weapons and 4x Power Fists, 1x Chainfist, Teleportation Transponder all in Cataphractii that works the best.

 

If you're sending them after 3+ saves - which seems like a waste since we have Templar for that - Lightning Claws and Volkite Chargers might be better at wounding them and/or forcing saves. Grenade Harness would only be used if you're charging into terrain so might as well take it.

 

The Illastus Assault Cannon is wonky for me. Its neat but its not amazing. Take it if you want to but NEVER give it to a unit thats going to be taking Storm Shields to punch other terminators.

 

+++

 

For Imperial Fists specifically, Combat Vets are not worth it. Templar do it better for roughly the same cost when it comes to shredding MEQ, Storm Shield Terminators do it better when punching other Terminators.

 

Too, the Special Consul I don't see a point in. A Forge Lord is an infinitely better investment since you get Rad Grenades, a Servo-Arm and the ability to Purchase a Sol-Glove whihc is a non-specialist Ap1 Power Fist. Same Weapon Skill, more utility, more CC punch. You pay a bit more but its worth it. In Artificer Armour with a Refractor Field and Cyber Familiar he's also rocking a 2+/4++ and can Sweep whilst being able to fill compulsory slot when not wanting to run a RoW.

 

If you're after a Combat Character, Sigismund is hard to go wrong with.

 

+++

 

Me personally, I do everything in my power to avoid taking basic tactical squads especially if they're going to be in Rhinos. For not all that much more, you can instead take a RoW that unlocks vets as troops who do more.

 

Thanks for the advice!

 

On the Dreadnought: Is there any variant that the MM would work on? It looks pretty nice, and I've seen some Contemptor-Mortis with dual-MM suggestions mooted (especially since the Deredeo does the dual-Kheres Contemptor-Mortis role better). In this case I'll go for the Kheres instead though, based on your advice, but probably stick with the Plasma Blaster (unless it is a really bad idea) as I do like my own stuff to by WYSIWYG.

 

Could I ask why you are not a fan of the Illiastus, because I know AC are popular in 40K? Is it to do with the jamming rule, or is it more to do with the (seemingly) higher AV values & infantry Armour Saves in Heresy meaning it comes up lacking? Do you prefer the Autocannon, or is it better to stick with the Plasma Blaster/Combi-Weapons?

 

I completely agree on the Terminators, but sadly the kit does not come with Combi-Weapons form what I can see. Eventually there are a couple of squads I want, Deepstriking Combi-Plasma guys with Axes & Chainfists, and transport-delivered Storm Shield guys with a mix of Thunder Hammers & Chainfists. I'll see if I have enough bits to try and kitbash some combi-weapons, but would Lightning Claws or Power Fists be better (with Chainfist on Sergeant in either case)? I've been leaning towards Lightning Claws as the Grenade Harness grants Frags to the unit so would make them useful for digging MEQ out of cover without risking casualties before they strike, as well as being very different to shooty 40K Terminators.

 

If Fury of the Legion is unlikely, what should I do with my 30 Marines - 3 Veteran Squads? If so, assuming I go for 1 squad with dual-HBs & a tooled-up Sergeant, what sort of kit should I be looking at for the others - are Meltaguns/Missile Launchers a good option to mix in the squad to deter mid-armour vehicles (especially other Contemptors, Machine Killers making both weapons effectively Str9), or should I be looking at something like Plasma Guns to use against other infantry and support the Sniper HB squad?

 

I am considering getting another 10 plastic Marines so I could run a unit of 20 Tacticals with Apothecary and 2 Veteran Tactical Squads if that would be a better set-up than 3 Veteran Squads?

 

Oh and as for the special model, I was thinking that I could run him as a Delegatus with Solarite Power Gauntlet, Master-Crafted Plasma Pistol, Artificer Armour & Refractor Field to use the Delegatus RoW allowing me to take the Veterans as troops - is this a good idea, or should I stick to one of the box characters as a Praetor running Pride of the Legion?

[Slips]

Stick with the Plasma if you want, its fine. But be aware that I have a Contemptor with a Plasma Cannon and In-Hand Plasma Blaster. He has glanced himself to death in a single turn with 3 Gets Hots one time...

 

For Multimeltas, the only platform I see the weapon working on is: Javelin Landspeeders and Rhinos (pintle). Anything else and its a very underwhelming weapon on such an expensive model. Maybe Boxnaughts because they're so disposable.

 

The Jam isn't something that will really ever come into play though I have seen it happen. Its just that it doesn't really...fit...the 30k Terminator "Roles" as I see them. Want to punch TEQ? Plasma Blaster does it better. Av? You have Chainfists and Combi-Meltas. MEQ? Plasma Blaster again mainly due to consistency. GEQ? I guess thats where it can truly shine but 30k Doesn't have a whole lot of them and if they do, 4 shots from an Assault Cannon aren't going to be doing a ton of damage compared to other options (see Inducted Levy Spam or Solar Auxilia Lasrifle Sections.)

 

The Reaper Autocannon is also a bit wonky. Unless you can get the squad Tank Hunter, its not that great of a weapon, again, because you have better options ESPECIALLY because we can innately deepstrike our terminators meaning that range isn't that much of an issue.

 

For the Terminators, Combi's in the kit are an issue but Forgeworld can save you a bit of trouble: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-CA/Legion-Combi-weapon-Set-2015

 

In general, if you have the points, give Terminators Power Fists, no exceptions. Paying +5 over a Power Axe for +3S is worth it and Saving 5 over a Thunderhammer to just lose the Concussive rule is also worth it.

 

For Grinding MEQ to dust: Templar. They do it better with 3A Base (Power Sword and Pistol) with 4 each on the Charge and Furious Charge for S5 Ap3 at Ws5. Give them combat shields and they're 2+/5++ in CC and the 2W Champion can take a Sol Glove to break Artificer Sergeant Stalemates. Plus, they can Sweep. So, to me, Lightning Claw Terminators are counter-productive.

 

I would make Vets pretty much every time, yes.

 

In General, always give the Sergeant Artificer Armour and a Power Fist. Vox is optional depending on if you have Barrage weapons or Deepstrikers. Vexilla is nigh-mandatory and Squadwide Meltabombs depends on if you're using the GW Grenade FAQ or not.

 

After that its up to you but Marksman is pretty much the best option. Sniper AND Outflank, for free, is hard to beat.

 

With Missile Launchers, it gives you 2 Sniper Frag Templates and S8 Krak Missiles on the side to pop light/medium Av.

Sniper Heavy Flamers and Combi-Flamers can be hilarious.

Plasma Guns don't benefit from sniper but they bring consistent Ap2 damage.

Heavy Bolters make the most out of our Legion Rules and Sniper.

Melta Guns are too short ranged for my tastes.

 

What to equip the squad is up to you but my "Core" of 2 10 man Squads with 2x Heavy Bolters, Rhino /w Dozer, Sergeant with Artificer and Power Fist, Melta Bombs and Vexilla have rarely gone wrong for me especially now that they're cheaper than before for the same loadout and also get Outflank.

 

Fair on the Delegatus, ditch the Plasma Pistol though. I hate the things and they rarely do anything to get their points back even with BS5 MC'd, you're going to shoot it 1-2 times in a game, tops, outside of pretty exceptional circumstances.

 

Chosen Duty has less of a risk of a dramatic VP swing if/when your troops all get nuked. Better for smaller games.

[Terminus]

With the addition of multimeltas and HKMs as weapon options, the Rhino is almost better than the tactical squad it carries. As is, they are best used as Despoilers for Legions that do that sort of thing well.

 

Aren't the combi-weapon hands kind of small for Cataphracts?

Edited November 2, 2016 by Terminus

[Slips]

With the addition of multimeltas and HKMs as weapon options, the Rhino is almost better than the tactical squad it carries. As is, they are best used as Despoilers for Legions that do that sort of thing well.

 

Aren't the combi-weapon hands kind of small for Cataphracts?

Yeah, they are because its for PA Marine but its better than No Combi-Weapons or having to buy multiple special weapon sets.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Never realized the TB champion has 2W... nice catch Slips ! :)

[Gothical]

Stick with the Plasma if you want, its fine. But be aware that I have a Contemptor with a Plasma Cannon and In-Hand Plasma Blaster. He has glanced himself to death in a single turn with 3 Gets Hots one time...

 

For Multimeltas, the only platform I see the weapon working on is: Javelin Landspeeders and Rhinos (pintle). Anything else and its a very underwhelming weapon on such an expensive model. Maybe Boxnaughts because they're so disposable.

 

The Jam isn't something that will really ever come into play though I have seen it happen. Its just that it doesn't really...fit...the 30k Terminator "Roles" as I see them. Want to punch TEQ? Plasma Blaster does it better. Av? You have Chainfists and Combi-Meltas. MEQ? Plasma Blaster again mainly due to consistency. GEQ? I guess thats where it can truly shine but 30k Doesn't have a whole lot of them and if they do, 4 shots from an Assault Cannon aren't going to be doing a ton of damage compared to other options (see Inducted Levy Spam or Solar Auxilia Lasrifle Sections.)

 

The Reaper Autocannon is also a bit wonky. Unless you can get the squad Tank Hunter, its not that great of a weapon, again, because you have better options ESPECIALLY because we can innately deepstrike our terminators meaning that range isn't that much of an issue.

 

For the Terminators, Combi's in the kit are an issue but Forgeworld can save you a bit of trouble: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-CA/Legion-Combi-weapon-Set-2015

 

In general, if you have the points, give Terminators Power Fists, no exceptions. Paying +5 over a Power Axe for +3S is worth it and Saving 5 over a Thunderhammer to just lose the Concussive rule is also worth it.

 

For Grinding MEQ to dust: Templar. They do it better with 3A Base (Power Sword and Pistol) with 4 each on the Charge and Furious Charge for S5 Ap3 at Ws5. Give them combat shields and they're 2+/5++ in CC and the 2W Champion can take a Sol Glove to break Artificer Sergeant Stalemates. Plus, they can Sweep. So, to me, Lightning Claw Terminators are counter-productive.

 

I would make Vets pretty much every time, yes.

 

In General, always give the Sergeant Artificer Armour and a Power Fist. Vox is optional depending on if you have Barrage weapons or Deepstrikers. Vexilla is nigh-mandatory and Squadwide Meltabombs depends on if you're using the GW Grenade FAQ or not.

 

After that its up to you but Marksman is pretty much the best option. Sniper AND Outflank, for free, is hard to beat.

 

With Missile Launchers, it gives you 2 Sniper Frag Templates and S8 Krak Missiles on the side to pop light/medium Av.

Sniper Heavy Flamers and Combi-Flamers can be hilarious.

Plasma Guns don't benefit from sniper but they bring consistent Ap2 damage.

Heavy Bolters make the most out of our Legion Rules and Sniper.

Melta Guns are too short ranged for my tastes.

 

What to equip the squad is up to you but my "Core" of 2 10 man Squads with 2x Heavy Bolters, Rhino /w Dozer, Sergeant with Artificer and Power Fist, Melta Bombs and Vexilla have rarely gone wrong for me especially now that they're cheaper than before for the same loadout and also get Outflank.

 

Fair on the Delegatus, ditch the Plasma Pistol though. I hate the things and they rarely do anything to get their points back even with BS5 MC'd, you're going to shoot it 1-2 times in a game, tops, outside of pretty exceptional circumstances.

 

Chosen Duty has less of a risk of a dramatic VP swing if/when your troops all get nuked. Better for smaller games.

 

Thank you for all the advice. I'll mull it over and see what I can do with the kits and my bits box to get the best out of those units.

 

With Cataphractii, is it ever worth taking 3 Power Fists/Chainfists for the additional hitting power and a couple of Power Swords/Lightning Claws on normal grunts to get in a few at-Initiative swings without the potential of a challenge mucking things up?

Edited November 3, 2016 by Gothical

[jeremy1391]

I'd recommend running a ten man seeker squad. Scorpius bolts are disgustingly scary now!

[Slips]

I'd recommend running a ten man seeker squad. Scorpius bolts are disgustingly scary now!

And ours are BS6 for giggles.

 

+++

 

For Terminators, unless Ive modeled them that way, I would never take anything but power fists and the occasional chain fist if I can help it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I take an equal number of power fists and chainfists .

[Terminus]

If super short on points I will occasionally consider dropping one down to power axe. Chances are at least one will die before combat so its not a huge loss if it gets me those last 5 points I need for something else.