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Bugger it, let's call it Legacy of the Legion. There, done.

 

Right. Have we heard from Wade yet? I'll PM him at lunch time and get a sitrep. If nothing comes of it we'll assume the talks fell through and the third wave will be started.

 

Maybe we ought to finish the work on the Blades of the Lion before we start another part of the project?

Not to be pushy or anything, but in this thread we do have a terrible tendency to not quite finish what we start. :sweat:

 

On that note, quick question for everyone: How do you guys think the Blades of the Lion view the Emperor? And how do you think they view their brother Chapters?

 

EDIT:

Definitely cool with adding all the proposed ships to the Lions' fleet, there were far too many good names to waste there.

I think maybe that's why none of us could pick one! :laugh.:

Edited by Ace Debonair

On that note, quick question for everyone: How do you guys think the Blades of the Lion view the Emperor? And how do you think they view their brother Chapters?

 

How about we play with the theme here and wiggle in some 'master hunter/huntsman' lore or something?

If they view the Emperor as the greatest human ever to live perhaps that can feed into their "arrogant b :cuss ds" schtick by viewing the First Legion and it's successors as His finest creations. The ultimate refinement of the too-few Adeptus Custodes and the primitive Thunder Warriors before them, whereas the other Astartes Legions that followed the 1st were but pale imitations tainted by their own genetic and cultural failings.

Okay, I did the edits to the post to add the ships and I modified the name to be the Legacy of the First. Legion seemed vague and could apply to any Legion

 

That name is just made of win. :biggrin.:

 

So... d'you guys think the Blades view of non-DA Lineage Chapters would be closer to "lacklustre peons" or "good, but not as good as us"?

 

I'm just wondering exactly what degree of haughty arrogance we're looking at here. :laugh.:

 

Okay, I did the edits to the post to add the ships and I modified the name to be the Legacy of the First. Legion seemed vague and could apply to any Legion

 

That name is just made of win. :biggrin.:

 

So... d'you guys think the Blades view of non-DA Lineage Chapters would be closer to "lacklustre peons" or "good, but not as good as us"?

 

I'm just wondering exactly what degree of haughty arrogance we're looking at here. :laugh.:

 

 

Generally I imagine it would be "good, but not as good as us", complete with condescending tone for other Astartes. Though at the same time it's "worthless peons" when faced with normal humans, even to elite groups like Scions or Sororitas.

I keep getting the images of a haughty big game hunter with the African Safari Hat discussing the finer points of bringing down big game while holding a cup of tea with the obligatory pinky extension. :P

 

"There is a proper way to fight a war. The methods of the Militarum are just not sporting!"

 

But in all seriousness, the Blades probably have a terrific battle record with few losses in their history. This has blossomed into an overblown sense of Pride in their abilities. I believe this has been retconned but I always subscribed to the individual proficiencies of the Primarchs. The Lion's was tactics and he was able to counter anything his opponent sent against him. This led to him being able to win every battle but still lose the war. That was Gulliman's specialty and why his systems remained in Compliance while the Lion lost his home world of Caliban.

 

The Blades are in a position to fulfil that role. The Blades would usually come and defeat any foe of the Imperium, even in front of other forces of the Imperium. But once their mission is complete, they leave and let others be to finish the war.

Yeah that sounds good. 

 

This quote fits the Blades very well: "By what right does the wolf judge the lion?" and fits their mentality of other Chapters perfectly. Other Lions (as in First Legion descendants) are paragons of humanity and the Imperium whereas everyone else are beneath them. 

 

Also if we end up doing a sidebar about one of the Liber Conclaves the Lion rep needs to get this in:

 

Lord Inviolate marine: Handsome armor. Not a scratch on it.
Blade of the Lion marine: I know. People have been swinging at me for years and they always seem to miss.

Looks like things are moving along nicely for the Blades of the Lion. I wonder how much is left to do?

 

Also- I bring an update for the proposed talks between the Pride and the Imperium - Wade, atm, cannot invest time in developing the event so I am going to field this to the rest of the Liber. If someone wishes to take this on, then fair enough. Just realise that, as a replacement for Wave Three, I will prefer this to be done by a particular deadline. If no-one steps forward or this falls through for whatever reason, we will assume the talks failed and Wave Three will begin. 

 

So, hands up anyone who wants to write out these negotiations? If a group of you wishes to do this between you, then that's fine too.

I really want the "talks" to end up with the Blackjaws back on the imperial side, but changed a bit. However, I am not sure I can do justice to them while the ETL is still in progress. I would be happy to work with someone about them though.

I really want the "talks" to end up with the Blackjaws back on the imperial side, but changed a bit. However, I am not sure I can do justice to them while the ETL is still in progress. I would be happy to work with someone about them though.

Me too, I was a very sad panda when the Kindred first went rogue after the Doomsayers' Return, our most unique & characterful Chapter turning to the dark side? A terrible shame. :sad.:

Still, maybe them showing up to help defeat the Untaken or whoever the next big threat is earns them the Emperor's Forgiveness, ala the Badab Secessionists?

 

I hope so, if only because it'd drive the damn Conflagrators insane. :devil:

Edited by SanguiniusReborn

Didn't the fight start because the Conflagrators were pro-Vandire? And didn't the Conflagrators eventually turn anti-Vandire?

 

Iirc, yes, pretty much. The Conflagrators cajoled and provoked the other Liber Chapters over the time of Vandire's life, first in his name and then against him once they had learned of his nature as a 'false prophet' or some such. This is the period of time that Lord Hellfyre serves most of his tenure (and is responsible for a handful of incidents with other Liber Chapters) - he is an important early figure for the Chapter and one of the key individuals in persecuting the Kindred.   

 

 

 

I really want the "talks" to end up with the Blackjaws back on the imperial side, but changed a bit. However, I am not sure I can do justice to them while the ETL is still in progress. I would be happy to work with someone about them though.

Me too, I was a very sad panda when the Kindred first went rogue after the Doomsayers' Return, our most unique & characterful Chapter turning to the dark side? A terrible shame. :sad.:

Still, maybe them showing up to help defeat the Untaken or whoever the next big threat is earns them the Emperor's Forgiveness, ala the Badab Secessionists?

 

I hope so, if only because it'd drive the damn Conflagrators insane. :grin

 

These talks, if I'm not mistaken, occur prior to the Doomsayers reappearing. I could be wrong but I believe the Doomsayers disappear for about a millennia, judging by the timeline. By that score, the Kindred won't return to the fold because of these talks - the time difference is far too great. However, having the Kindred experience a resurgence against the roving Untaken sounds poetic enough, seeing as both forces have roots going back much further than any of the others in the Liber Cluster. 

Looks like things are moving along nicely for the Blades of the Lion. I wonder how much is left to do?

Not much, Only the four things in Orange Remain

BLADES OF THE LION (97% Complete)

Hidden Content

http://i.imgur.com/rwszq0A.jpg

+ + + ORANGE AREAS TO BE REVIEWED AND FINALIZED + + +

SUMMARY:

GENE-SEED (PREDECESSOR) – Dark Angels

FOUNDING - 21st "Cursed" Founding

CHAPTER MASTER - Jurn Reven-Wold

CHAPTER WORLD – NONE (Fleet Based)

FORTRESS MONASTERY - Battle Barge "Legacy of the First"

MAIN COLOURS – Gray and Bone

SPECIALITY - Quick Strike Force

BATTLE CRY – “Unsheath the Blades!” Response – “And Let the Lions Roar!”

CURRENT STRENGTH - 786

KNOWN DESCENDANTS - None

ORIGINS:

The Blades of the Lion are a crusading, fleet based Chapter currently located in the Liber Cluster. The Blades are Dark Angels successors from an ancient founding who prefer to fight alone which has almost doomed them several times since they were created, they are prideful and will never ask for assistance even if they know they are doomed. Without a homeworld the Blades roam the Cluster in their Strike Cruisers attacking pirate and xenos strongholds wherever they find them, either dropping from the skies in drop pods or tearing through enemy ships in brutal boarding actions. Their leaders are master tacticians and take pride in surrounding the enemy and seeing utterly annihilated. The Chapter has a history of battling Orks in the Liber Cluster, matching the prowess of their bike mounted warriors against the Ork mechanized hordes but it is against Traitor Space Marines that the Blades fight the fiercest. The Blades are able to fully test their mettle when fighting foes comparable to themselves and relish believing themselves to be utterly superior to anything that isn’t a Space Marine.

To outsiders, the Blades of the Lion appear to strike at random then disappear into the void afterwards but in reality they are being guided by their Librarians who believe they are receiving visions from their Primarch in pursuit of the “Great Hunt”. Their Chaplains work alongside the Librarians in deciphering the visions and interrogating prisoners to find their next target. It is unfortunate if any of these visions strike during a battle as the Blades may suddenly redeploy before their quarry escapes – this makes the Blades a sometimes-unreliable asset in a large campaign but if they have the numbers they will endeavor to leave some marines behind so their allies are not overwhelmed.

The Blades will recruit from wherever they can, the Cluster is large enough for them to have plenty of recruiting worlds to choose from but they do not lay claim to any specifically. Once an initiate is taken in they are mind wiped and they will only know the Chapter. The “Great Hunt” is known by all of the Blades but only the high ranking marines know exactly what the Hunt is actually trying to achieve, the commanders know that the targets they hunt are the forever cursed Fallen. The rest of the Blades believe they are hunting traitors to the Emperor and are not aware that their targets were once or are still Dark Angel Legionnaires.

The Blades of the Lion are not trusted by most of the Liberite Chapters due to their isolationist attitude and tendencies to withdraw from combat without a word. The Blades rarely attend a Liberite Conclave but when they do their words are seldom ignored when planning assaults yet they will never offer themselves to be the lynchpin of a campaign, the risk of duty to the Imperium and the secret shame of the Great Hunt could spell disaster.

FLEET ASSETS:

The Blades of the Lion can lay claim to a fairly considerable fleet of ships. Though they have only a limited number of Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges, Chapter Serfs are billeted in a flotilla of smaller, purely non-combat ships that accompany the Blades' vessels like squires attending to a noble knight.

Battle Barge "Legacy of the First" - An ancient vessel with its origins dating back to the Great Crusade. The vessel was thought to have been destroyed by the Night Lords in the running battles between the two primarchs and their legions. The Blades encountered the remnants of the vessel and realized that the vessel was not only salvageable but nearly battle ready with full complements of weapons and equipment. After honoring the fallen brothers still aboard the vessel, the Techmarines set to work to repair the damage done by the Night Lords. Within a Terran year, the vessel was back to full operation and with the discovery of chamber that bore signs that the Lion had spent time aboard the vessel, it was made the flagship of the Blades. With the chamber treated like a shrine to the Lion, the Blades are confident that the vessel will see them to victory into the far future.

Strike Cruiser "Wings of Caliban" - acts as a recruitment vessel for the Blades, constantly scouring the worlds of the Liber Cluster for worthy recruits.

Other notable vessels:

The Bladed Trophy

Lion's Lodge

The Bladed Blind

The Relentless/Restless Hunter

The Calibanite Snare

The Path of Virtue

The Inescapable Hunter

The Herald of Honour

The Oath of Vengeance

The Merciless Wrath

The Lion's Roar

The Pride

PRESENT ACTIVITIES:

The Blades of the Lion are Currently active in the Liber Cluster in pursuit of the “Great Hunt.” The Blades rarely attend a Liberite Conclave but when they do their words are seldom ignored when planning assaults yet they will never offer themselves to be the lynchpin of a campaign, the risk of duty to the Imperium and the secret shame of the Great Hunt could spell disaster.

BATTLE HONORS:

The Blades of the Lion have taken part is innumerable conflicts in the furthest reaches of the Liber Cluster. While tales of the Great Hunt are confined strictly to the innermost vaults of this secretive Chapter, there are no shortage of glorious battles the Blades of the Lion have partaken in.

During the early years of the Liber Cluster, the Blades of the Lion were notable participants in the Eighteen Worlds Crusade, a bitter, gruelling war waged against a gang of renegade Astartes known as the Sereiki Lions.

Perhaps viewing the renegades' choice of name as a personal affront to all scions of the First Legion, the Blades of the Lion took several opportunities to strike at these foes alongside their brother Chapters, notably taking an active part in the purging of Heroda IV alongside the Black Judges and working alongside the Iron Ravagers in the Pacification of Tonagish.

Under the guidance of the Lion's Eye, however, The Blades of the Lion also turned to more covert actions, seeking to ascertain the true nature of the leaders of this warband. Thus, the Chapter's Reserve Companies found themselves being carefully deployed away from the primary battlefronts, fighting several low-key engagements at remote outposts to starve the traitors of valuable intelligence reports, isolate key figures in the enemy's leadership chain, or deprive the foe of useful resources such as recruitment grounds. Though the exact details of these missions have not yet come to light, the few outsiders that know of them simply see it as the Blades working hard to serve the Imperium.

Equally, the Blades of the Lion found themselves much involved in the Inquisition's 'shadow war' against the secretive, anti-Imperial organisation known as Penumbra. Shadows, secrets and lies are in many ways familiar to the Unforgiven, and the Blades of the Lion were skilled at seeing through the ruses and schemes Penumbra used to veil their presence.

Though much of the details of the Blades' participation in this conflict is either lost to time or deliberately erased, their willingness to lend aid earned the Blades of the Lion not only much goodwill from local Inquisitors, but saw a great many Penumbra operatives detained aboard the Chapter's Fleet, at the leisure of the Inner Circle.

The Blades of the Lion have also been at the forefront of combat against traitor marines over the centuries - taking action against rogue elements of the Blackjaw Kindred during the Burning Brothers Schism and clashing with the Black Legion and their minions during the events known as the Shadow Marches. Of particular note were the Blades' actions against the traitorous Angels Exultant chapter during the March of Ghosts, when the Unyielding Hate and the company of marines on board managed to destroy several times their own number even when confronted with the haunting spectres of their own dead obfuscating the enemy. For their actions during this battle, their leader was posthumously granted the Liber Falx by the Council, which has been handed down within the third company ever since.

More recently, the Blades have fought alongside the Scarlet Sentinels and Lords Inviolate against the seemingly-inexorable traitor horde known as the Ghoulknights of Throskaar, and their ninth Company was amongst those who made a desperate stand at Scythia against Waaagh Roksmasha. In each of these conflicts, the Blades of the Lion remained stoic, steadfast and resolute to their duty, demonstrating honour and valour worthy of the Lion himself.

CHAPTER ORGANIZATION:

The Blades of the Lion are, in many ways, built on honour and tradition. In few places is this more evident than within the Chapter's organisational structure. Like most Dark Angel successors, the Blades are broadly compliant with the layout advised by the Codex Astartes - ten companies, each a hundred Space Marines strong. It is only on a closer examination that the differences within that organisation become apparent.

Scouts, for example, are not permitted to bear the Chapter's full heraldry; they are instead given plain grey armour with bone pauldrons - enough colour to serve as an identifier of allegiance to the Chapter, but still visually distinct from true Battle-brothers of the Chapter.

Librarians are held in high regard within the Chapter. Their master of the Librarium is sometimes referred to as the Lion's Eye, for it is his counsel that guides the Blades in the Great Hunt. The Lion's Eye is given a very high level of respect, and in terms of authority is considered to rank only just below a Company Captain.

Amongst the rest of the Chapter, the First Company is informally known as the "Kingslayers", for their first campaign in the Liber Cluster saw them destroy a traitor marine known as 'Parsiel, King of Exiles' and his armies. As with the Dark Angels and many of their kin, the First Company is the exclusive home of the Chapter's Tactical Dreadnought Armour. Unlike other scions of Jonson, however, the sheer remoteness of the Liber Cluster from the rest of the Imperium means the Blades of the Lion only have enough functional suits to field three full squads of Terminators. The rest of the "Kingslayer" Company are made up of veteran marines, much like any other Codex Chapter.

The Second Company is almost entirely given over to the use of bikes and landspeeders, and is treated with very much the same respect and deference that the First Company is given. The Second Company is the Chapter's most formidable weapon in the Great Hunt - most frequently deployed as demi-companies alongside other Blades forces, they excel in pursuing and ensnaring fleeing enemies, forcing them to face destruction or capture.

The Blades of the Lion also field three conventional Battle Companies and four codex-approved Reserve Companies, each steeped in proud traditions. In true Dark Angel fashion, only the upper echelons of each Company are aware of the true nature of the Great Hunt, with the truth concealed by layer upon layer of secrecy and careful misdirection.

RECRUITMENT:

The Blades have been known to recruit from all manner of worlds - factory worlds, feudal worlds, even death worlds. If there is a set pattern to their choice of recruitment worlds, it is known only to the upper echelons of the Chapter. However, one interesting trend is that efforts to find viable recruits always seems to increase in intensity prior to the Blades embarking on the Great Hunt, leading to outsider speculation that perhaps the Chapter's Librarians have some say in where the Wings of Caliban travels.

CHAPTER COLORS:

The Chapter has kept its standard bone and gray color scheme since its founding through all of its companies. There are two areas of difference in the scheme. First is that the Kingslayers have bone in place of the gray on their Terminator armor similar to the Deathwing of the Dark Angels Chapter. The second is that the Scouts have their armor mostly painted gray save for the cauldrons which are the only areas painted bone. To an outsider, there is nothing significant to this scheme. But within the Chapter, the bone signifies their devotion to the Great Hunt even if the object of their Hunt varies. As the Kingslayers have more of the full knowledge behind the Great Hunt, they show more bone in their armor whereas the scouts know hardly anything.

tsm.php?hdt=FFECC1&hdm=FFECC1&hdl=FFECC1http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/sct.php?b62c=@hCmX3_iaj2F.iakk7hozqSi81Yf@__@@@@@@@@@_..@@@@@@@@@@_@@@@@@@@@@@&grid=TRUE

The only other area of deviation is in the specialists of the chapter. Each Specialist has taken up the traditional look of coloring their entire armor to match their specialization. In this way, they symbolize to their brothers that they have left the Great Hunt to follow the path of their specialization.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/sm.php?b62c=@hIAEG_hCmX3.iakk7@@@@@@@iaj0o@.@@..@@@@@@@@@@@_iaj2F_iaj2F@@@@@@@@@@__@@@@@@@@@@@@@__&grid=TRUEhttp://www.bolterandchainsword.com/sm.php?b62c=@hr3uf_hCmX3.iakk7@@@@@@@hJ9Lc@.@@..@@@@@@@@@@@_iaj2F_iaj2F@@@@@@@@@@__@@@@@@@@@@@@@__&grid=TRUE

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/sm.php?b62c=@haLvy_hCmX3.iakk7@@@@@@@hJ9Lc@.@@..@@@@@@@@@@@_iaj2F_iaj2F@@@@@@@@@@__@@@@@@@@@@@@@__&grid=TRUEhttp://www.bolterandchainsword.com/sm.php?b62c=@iakk7_hCmX3.iaj2F@@@@@@@hJ9Lc@@@@__@@@@@@@@@@@_._.@@@@@@@@@@__@@@@@@@@@@@@@__&grid=TRUE

BATTLE STANDARDS OR CHAPTER BANNERS (OPTIONAL):

sml_gallery_49041_10668_3212.png

(Their icon will either be two crossed swords or a lion and a sword - need to figure that out and get it into their colour scheme). Lord Thørn has made some awesome chapter badges that are to be finalized.

http://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/15/92/38/07/blades10.pnghttp://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/15/92/38/07/blades11.pnghttp://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/15/92/38/07/blades12.pnghttp://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/15/92/38/07/blades13.pnghttp://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/15/92/38/07/blades14.png

BATTLE HONORS/RELICS/DECORATIONS/AWARDS:

The Heavenfall Blades:

Each of the chapters descended from the Dark Angels are said to have a small portion of the obsidian meteor, which was used to forge the Heavenfall Blades so that they too might share through steel the legacy of their founders. Many legends surround Harbinger, a sword wielded by high-ranking members of the Blades of the Lion, but at the very least, we know that it is one of these such weapons.

Harbinger is a finely wrought power sword with a large red gem in the center of its cross guard. In addition, built into its hilt is a locator beacon. It is said that the sword often begins to hum and the red gem glows when danger is present, but whether this is just the result of the prudent wielder activating its internal beacon or some gift from the Emperor himself the Blades have never commented on.

COMBAT DOCTRINE:

There is little, in theory, to set the Blades of the Lion apart from other sons of the Lion once they are deployed on the field of battle. Enemies are met with an advancing, unstoppable force of Space Marines who adapt to any combat situation effortlessly, shrugging off enemy attacks and retaliating with punishing force. However, there are a few subtle quirks that make the Blades noteworthy.

The Blades set high value by facing down an enemy in honourable combat, but such honour is usually reserved for only the most veteran squads within a company. Squads of 'lesser standing' in a company are more usually tasked with the more mundane aspects of combat, such as flanking movements or intercepting enemy ambushes, leaving the way clear for the veterans to engage the enemy's strongest forces. Although it is unheard of for a squad of the Blades to directly disobey orders from their Captains, it is quite commonplace for squads of lesser standing to undertake acts of quite singular bravery and heroism on their own initiative to prove their worth and valour to the rest of the Company.

Another notable factor is that any Blades involved with the Great Hunt shed this seemingly ingrained competitive nature entirely. When the Hunt is on, the Blades shun personal honour completely, caring only for the larger victory, which will bring honour and pride to their Primarch and all their kindred.

BATTLE CRY:

“Unsheath the Blades!” Response – “And Let the Lions Roar!”

LOCAL RITUALS:

Tests of the Lion

A tournament held within the chapter, the Tests of the Lion is a series of challenges held throughout the chapter, testing each marines skill with his guns, blades and strategic values. First the marine must face his brothers in his squad before progressing to facing the companies victors before finally facing the rest of the chapters victors. It is a usual sight for the challenges involving other companies to be held during the times where the chapter meets up.

The most recent victor of the Tests, [insert name here] of the # company, is has most recently been labeled as MIA after encounters with the Dark Eldar. If he is still alive, it is most likely he has been thrown into the arenas, to fight to his death.

BELIEFS:

The Blades are arrogant bastards who in their minds cannot be beaten (think Jaime early on in Game of Thrones.)

GENE-SEED:

Dark Angels

CHAMPIONS OF THE CHAPTER:

Brother Javin Gildred, Sworn Champion of the 2nd Company:

When the Great Hunt locates one of the Fallen in the Liber Cluster, the Second Company is the Chapter's first choice to intercept the traitor. Within that company, the task of facing down an armed, dangerous Fallen is almost always given over to their Company Champion, Javin Gildred.

Gildred is a hardened, merciless fighter, skilled in all forms of combat. While most of the Chapter believe Gildred always slays the Hunted, the truth of the matter is that he always leaves them barely alive, that the Chaplains and Chapter Master may set the captured Fallen on the path of repentance.

Gildred seems to harbour an especially strong hate of the Fallen, even for one of Jonson's sons. He treats the existence of the Fallen as a stain on his personal honour as well as on the entirety of Jonson's line.

Interrogator Urvin Thaen, Chaplain of the 5th Company:

A renowned breaker of men, Chaplain Thaen has brought five Fallen to the point of confession over his long life. Now in his fourth century, soon to be his fifth, the white haired astartes has seen captains and chapter masters come and go. But, for Thaen, it is not officers he is duty bound to. It is the Great Hunt. Eschewing the rank of Grand Master no less than four times, Thaen has poured his soul into his work. Many find him curt to the point of being rude and often find that he will wait for no man. This impatience has always been a trait of Thaen, which could also explain his methodology during interrogations.

Not a particularly inspiring orator, Thaen will usually lead by example rather than attempt to inspire his brothers to greater acts in battle. Due his age and experience, Thaen is often treated as a tactical advisor. As any battle brother, he can handle himself on the battlefield - this does not make him special. What does, however, is his foresight. Thaen knows when particular enemies would choose to attack, when they would choose to defend and how they do so. Xenos hold no surprises for him and traitors find themselves cut down in an untimely fashion facing the interrogator.

Thaen, as he proudly boasts to all who listen, takes special relish killing astartes of any stripe. Draw a blade or bolter against him and, as he always assures the listener, you won't be standing for long. Contemptuous, cantankerous and blunt, Urvin Thaen thrives on hatred.

Edited by Grand Master Belial

I vote #5! That is what I had in my head when I dreamt these guys up :D 

 

- For the IA for the Blades can we just skip the Homeworld section and move the Fleet Assets section higher up? Losing their homeworld and turning fleet based isn't something I had in mind for the Blades I imagined them to be fleet based from their creation and picking up recruits along the way and such. 

If so, perhaps some more attention could be placed on the Chapter flagship. More than just a name, but a history.

 

And I agree with #5, it was my thoughts too. But the proportions don't feel right. Maybe if Thorn is interested in playing around with it some more?

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