Strazhakov Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Just give the Warp Talons the Mark of Slaanesh as well. It's better on them than MoK anyway. Initiative 5 makes them super killy against Marines (which should be their main target anyway). Otherwise I really like your playstyle and list building. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3737395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheesh Mode Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 You've got me The Jeske. I'm still working out my own knowledge of the codex, that bothers me. @Strazhakov: Thank you for the compliment, I'll try it out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3737405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Just give the Warp Talons the Mark of Slaanesh as well. It's better on them than MoK anyway. Initiative 5 makes them super killy against Marines (which should be their main target anyway). Otherwise I really like your playstyle and list building. unless there is cover on the table and suddenly you paid for an upgrade that doesn't work . That is the problem with them. If they were 3-4 pts cheaper one could start thinking about mon for a mini squad and play them like a suicide unit of melee bikers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3737451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheesh Mode Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 It's a consideration. I may run a minimum squad to free up room for a Daemon Prince of Khorne. With the way things are going for flying monstrous creatures the most effective form of a Daemon Prince appears to be a flying mastery level 3 Nurgle Prince with the Burning Brand of Skalathrax to swoop about the field throwing the ap3 template down and buffing or destroying models. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3737477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strazhakov Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 @Jeske That's true but I've yet to play against a pure gunline army that never moves out of cover. Also I rarely let them attack unsupported. I think we all agree WT are a mediocre/bad unit points wise but we can still try to make the best out of them. None would love it more than me if they were 25 pts a piece and had grenades and a teleport homer but alas we'll have to work with what we're given and the models are way too sexy not to use them. Just my humble opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3737483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Skull Mask Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Thanks for this amazing thread to everyone involved! I've got a few questions in regard to the daemon prince: Why are you preferring the Nurgle prince over the tzeench one? Aren't ignore cover weapons still the same problem as in 6th? And aren't the Tzeench psychic powers still better than the Nurgle ones (even though you want only one)? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3737910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Generally the Nurgle powers are better than the Tzeentch powers, but the Nurgle prince's big drawback in 6th was that he's SnP and can't chase enemies when they flee. That is still the same, but the changes to jink makes the Nurgle prince have 2+ cover save against most weapons, even though the enemy have access to ignores cover weapons, he's not the only thing they have to worry about, plenty of other fast units that can use cover to shield it's advance in our books... Oh, and speaking of warp talons, not every enemy unit will be in cover all game long. There will be a need to score maelstrom objectives and get in range your tanks with melta and whatnot, warp talons are still a bit too expensive for my taste, but to say cover makes them completely useless is a bit faulty. For one, they can jump over the cover and and assault them from behind, they are quite fast... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3737917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 @ Sheesh Mode I can't get over the fact that only 15 models & 1 tank have OS. Do you not think that will be a problem? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3737944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted July 6, 2014 Author Share Posted July 6, 2014 Warp Talons are still bad. Technicly this is a thread about how to win with Chaos. While you can try to win with Warp Talons and you can win with them, in most circumstances they don't help you to win. Every other unit in the Fast Attack slot can fulfill the same function (killing 3+ save models or worse) while simultaneously doing other jobs better. The core rules haven't changed the fact that they are still grossy overpriced. In a way they are worse than in 6th, by virtue of still not having acces to S5+ and thus being very ineffective against vehicles/transports. Regarding Nurgle Princes: Yes, ignore cover still exists, but not enough that having a 2+ cover save isn't a good thing, it certainly is. They synergize well with Spawn as well for that reason, because Spawn rely on cover saves most of the time as their only save as well. Not many armies have so much anti-cover shooting that they don't have to choose between Spawn and Daemon Princes. (This is also an example of a case where the much misused saying "if they shoot at that, they aren't shooting at that" actually holds truth!) I'm slowly leaning towards wanting some shooting in my list as well. Why? I think it can be an issue when you have to assault even the easiest to destroy targets. You have to realise that assaulting usually means multiple turns of investment by having to move to make it happen. If it costs you 3 turns to kill a certain small unit with a 180 point assault unit of yours... meh. Issue is that we need to get it (the fire support) from our Elite and Troop slots (because Heavy is filled with Maulers and FA has no real fire support) , while those are our worst slots looking at efficiency. Maybe Dreadnoughts have a use after all, although I really loath using such inefficient firepower. Overall I'm fairly happy though with how our codex seems to function in 7th, could have been worse. It seems that we lucked out by being able to fill both the Heavy Support and Fast Attack slot with good units now. Previous edition we could literally fill only the Fast Attack slot with (really) good unit(s) and that was it. Spamfest: Daemon Prince; Wings, MoN 200Daemon Prince; Wings, MoN 20010 Cultists 5010 Cultists 50Helbrute; ML + TL-las 135Helbrute; ML + TL-las 135 Helbrute; ML + TL-las 1355 Spawn; MoN 1805 Spawn; MoN 1805 Spawn; MoN 180Maulerfiend; Lasher Tendrills 135Maulerfiend; Lasher Tendrills 135Maulerfiend; Lasher Tendrills 135Total: 1850. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3737954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 It seems that our focus from tactics is to focus upon rush lists with high mobility and combat prowess over shooting these days. Is there any way to go along the lines of a shooty list. Personally I think in the Maelstrom of war missions its mobility or bust. I personally think Noise Marines with Sonic Weapons and Sorcerers will do nicely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3738109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 If you really want mobility, maybe go unbound for all spawn/bikes/maulers all the time, and skip troops altogether? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3738110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Have you considered swapping tendrils for magmacutters? I recently did this, and actually think it's better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3738123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorrance Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Against my better judgment I have been leaning on unmarked un VOTLW marines in rhinos w 2x meltas, I have been brutalized and begun to deduce in my own way what is being discussed here but not to the level it is. Running a Lord on Juggernaut sometimes w axe of blind fury w a spawn posse seems to work for me. I have really trying to hit they sweet spot of getting into close combat and just winning by the slimmest margin. So the combat continues on his turn. Lots of succes when The Lord challenges and it's accepted. I have no problem winning a challenge and usually the units a target for charging rely on the character for CC so next round The Lord mops up allowing me to be free come my turn. Thsnks to this thread I have bought the hellbrute formation, and maybe because i am looking at it for the first time but helcut looks rocking...fearless mass of troops choice that at worst are fearless and hatred.... My cultists are largely ignored and thus scurry around the battle field claimig objs, now I can be free of worry when all but one remain because he is still scoring... Has one on tried maximizing this, yea there not fast but they are cheap, new chaos motto seems to be fast and cheep (and mostly fearless) Also, what are people giving their brutes 135 for ML and TL LC seems legit, even if it's expensive but people usually see LCs and try to take them out which is fine because with 3 maulers if my opponent doesn't have a sound deployment I am usually in turn 1 (if I want to) a lot of my games have turned into ignoring the enemy and running for objectives. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3738125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Against my better judgment I have been leaning on unmarked un VOTLW marines in rhinos w 2x meltas, I have been brutalized and begun to deduce in my own way what is being discussed here but not to the level it is. Running a Lord on Juggernaut sometimes w axe of blind fury w a spawn posse seems to work for me. I have really trying to hit they sweet spot of getting into close combat and just winning by the slimmest margin. So the combat continues on his turn. Lots of succes when The Lord challenges and it's accepted. I have no problem winning a challenge and usually the units a target for charging rely on the character for CC so next round The Lord mops up allowing me to be free come my turn. Thsnks to this thread I have bought the hellbrute formation, and maybe because i am looking at it for the first time but helcut looks rocking...fearless mass of troops choice that at worst are fearless and hatred.... My cultists are largely ignored and thus scurry around the battle field claimig objs, now I can be free of worry when all but one remain because he is still scoring... Has one on tried maximizing this, yea there not fast but they are cheap, new chaos motto seems to be fast and cheep (and mostly fearless) Also, what are people giving their brutes 135 for ML and TL LC seems legit, even if it's expensive but people usually see LCs and try to take them out which is fine because with 3 maulers if my opponent doesn't have a sound deployment I am usually in turn 1 (if I want to) a lot of my games have turned into ignoring the enemy and running for objectives. This is almost exactly what I'm thinking as well. In my own thread I envisioned Aegis, Quad, Cultists sitting right on objective. The Brute is getting a 3+ cover, and can be loaded to kill from a distance. Is your opponent even going to bother shooting at the Brute with Maulerfiends running full tilt at him? I am putting this in my next Crimson Slaughter list. (Heldrake is getting pulled to make room for it.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3738132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorrance Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Plus, I feel I make one 3 up save on the helbrute and my opponent will prolly get discouraged or throw everything at it, (that's what I would do) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3738135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 If you have multiple threats, choosing to untie yourself from spawn or to take out three multi-meltas in your back is a tough decision. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3738145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Spamfest: Daemon Prince; Wings, MoN 200 Daemon Prince; Wings, MoN 200 10 Cultists 50 10 Cultists 50 Helbrute; ML + TL-las 135 Helbrute; ML + TL-las 135 Helbrute; ML + TL-las 135 5 Spawn; MoN 180 5 Spawn; MoN 180 5 Spawn; MoN 180 Maulerfiend; Lasher Tendrills 135 Maulerfiend; Lasher Tendrills 135 Maulerfiend; Lasher Tendrills 135 Total: 1850. My first thought seeing that list, where are the chaos space Marines? unless you count the helbrutes as Marines there are non. I'm wondering though if we really have to stick to mauler/spawn spam to make a top tier list though this edition, since I know that's something I'd never play, not to mention that list may have a tough time playing malstrom missions. I'd really like to actually see more good lists with normal or cult Marines, and we can certainly still have good HS and FA Options using bikes and oblits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3738443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 The problem is our cult choices don't put out a lot of shooting without dumping points. Vanilla Chaos Marines have a hard time performing against their loyalist counter parts. You can run one of Sheesh, IP or Damian's lists but chances are you're sacrificing power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3738458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 You could switch the 3x5 Spawn for MoN bikes with melta and drop the 3 Helbrutes for 2 x 10 CSMs with MoN, plasma & rhinos. 4 OS units instead of 2 & circa 35 power armour baddies. I bet it'd still work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3738482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted July 6, 2014 Author Share Posted July 6, 2014 My first thought seeing that list, where are the chaos space Marines? They are in the middle of a long and intensive training period after their dissapointing performance over the last years on the battlefield and therefore wont be seeing any major battles any time soon. I'm wondering though if we really have to stick to mauler/spawn spam to make a top tier list though this edition, since I know that's something I'd never play, not to mention that list may have a tough time playing malstrom missions. I'd really like to actually see more good lists with normal or cult Marines, and we can certainly still have good HS and FA Options using bikes and oblits. Sure, I can make some suboptimal optimised builds. Just let me know what you want. Maybe I'm not telling you what you would like to hear, but I'm not the one writing the rules of this game, I'm merely giving my honest analysis of it. I'm not trying to sell you Maulerfiend or Spawn kits in any case... You also got to realise that I'm trying to show concepts here, while at the same time giving exact example builds. You can easily change around units, while keeping the same concept. Nurgle Bikes function almost the same as Spawn. Las/AC Preds or Oblits are in a way the same as Maulerfiends, they just do at range what Maulerfiends do up close. Lords on bike are a bit the same as Daemon Princes. I also showed in my first post builds with Marines in Rhinos, with Sorcer, Possessed and Plague Marines. But yes, I think you need to stick with Maulerfiends and Spawn for a top tier list. It never has been any different: Most codices don't support a lot of different really strong lists. It's not like a list with Noise Marines, Helbrutes or Vindicators won Adepticon in 6th either now did it? But why do you need to play with a top tier list in the 1st place? The only people who really want that are the ones who find it the most important thing. Those kind of players often have little preference for which units they are going to use. Be competitive and play with what you want, or accept you are not that competitive and play with what you want. So yes, either way: Play with what you want. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3738493 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 You could switch the 3x5 Spawn for MoN bikes with melta and drop the 3 Helbrutes for 2 x 10 CSMs with MoN, plasma & rhinos. 4 OS units instead of 2 & circa 35 power armour baddies. I bet it'd still work. I'm testing two lists right now; a kharne CC list and a MoS list For about 200 pts I get 7 NM (4 with sonic blasters) and 2 melts guns with rhino w/havok. Taking 4 of these along with Giant Spawn, spawn and maulers I'm doing well so far. I'm thinking of taking a fireraptor and putting 14 CC NM with sorc (going for blind and pinning test) lord (with BoR, horns etc.) in it and running the maulers and spawn up field. Thetes still 2-3 NM rhino squads. Doing pretty well so far, though I'm not a top tier player. Really hit me last night how the NM squads are no worse then the CSM, chosen squads I had been running. So, go Slaanesh! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3738502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Skull Mask Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 One more on daemon princes: why would you run them without both weapon (mace/axe/brand) and psyker-levels? They weren't that good naked in 6th, and with smash nerved, they haven't got any better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3738537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I'm wondering though if we really have to stick to mauler/spawn spam to make a top tier list though this edition, since I know that's something I'd never play, not to mention that list may have a tough time playing malstrom missions. I'd really like to actually see more good lists with normal or cult Marines, and we can certainly still have good HS and FA Options using bikes and oblits. Sure, I can make some suboptimal optimised builds. Just let me know what you want. Maybe I'm not telling you what you would like to hear, but I'm not the one writing the rules of this game, I'm merely giving my honest analysis of it. I'm not trying to sell you Maulerfiend or Spawn kits in any case... I don't doubt at all that you're right on for what's our most competitive build, I rarely play tournament games so it's not what I usually build my lists for, I was just thinking for the sake of curiosity is there a similar tier list we can run, which you said could be bikes and havocs/pred/oblits which sounds like a good alternative to me. Even if we lack some abilities our loyalist counterparts have, I will say I've found it very handy to be able to have double special weapons which the loyalists can't take. Double plasma or melta works fairly well for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3738540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 @Zhukov, another exvellant post. The top level competitive players have there own aesthetic, and almost everyone reading these threads just wants to do better in social and semi-comp environs. Understanding the difference has to be the most repeated advice on this forum from all sides to New and old alike. I'm seeing the merits of a thread for "Concepts of list building" to cover the ways a unit performs and how to maintain synergy when substituting appropriate units. Maybe update those threads already there? But what is your fav unit from CSM to play? Do you ever try to make it work on the table (if you still play)? I'm still working on CC NM, I think they can be strong for social and semi-comp. Just need to stop relying on the blasters so much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3738543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheesh Mode Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 @ Sheesh Mode I can't get over the fact that only 15 models & 1 tank have OS. Do you not think that will be a problem? What is OS? Does it have to do with firepower? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/2/#findComment-3738600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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