Zhukov Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 That gives me 4 x BS2 Twin-linked S9 AP2 Skyfire/Interceptor shots (at the nearest FMC/Flyer) and 8 x S7 AP4 shots, all 'safely' tucked up in AV14. Not a bad fire base for taking out FMCs and Flyers and against lists with no FMCs or Flyers I still get to hammer ground targets. Can anyone spot any holes in this logic? Yes I can. Let's go with math and assuming the Tyranid player is smart. What does he do? He makes sure his Crones/Harpies are constantly the closest target, not the Hive Tyrants. He jinks with them. 4 shots, twin-linked at BS2, S9 Ap2 (ignoring both Crones and Tyrants their armour save while wounding them on a 2+), jink is a 4+ cover save. 4x 5/9 x 5/6 x 1/2 = 0.925. Congrats, you are doing 1 wound on average to a Crone or Harpie per turn and spend 200 points of dedicated anti-air on this. It other words: This ain't gonna save you, not by any long stretch of the imagination. It can however help out a bit. I'd probably just go with vengeance weapon batteries though, which amounts to 150 points for the same firepower and as far as I know it als allows you to choose your target, instead of having to shoot at the nearest FMC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarsun Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 It can however help out a bit. I'd probably just go with vengeance weapon batteries though, which amounts to 150 points for the same firepower and as far as I know it als allows you to choose your target, instead of having to shoot at the nearest FMC. Sadly the Vengence Weapon Batteries use Automated Fire as well, but they lack the target priority rule that the Firestorm Redoubt has. Which has always stopped me from just using a pair of battlecannon batteries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopkins Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 My favorite unit is a big deep striking chaos terminator retinue. I no longer even try to play it, because of too many bad experiences with unaided deep strike scatter mishaps. same here nothing worse than watching my terminator lord and retinue deepstrike into no mans land, out of 12" combi melta range, and face a withering hail of fire in return which is why i bought them a land raider and will no doubt explode from a lucky snap shot from a lascannon after i fail a cover save Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I've been working on and off on a land raider for a bunch of chosen, but I find it an unsatisfactory option for my terminators both for the limited capacity (four termies just isn't much of a retinue, imo), and because I simply don't find it a satisfying option, thematically. I play black legion. One of our signature moves in the fluff is deep striking a big terminator retinue into the middle of the enemy army to take out their command structure. Driving up in a land raider, or even a spartan, just isn't the same. If it cost maybe 60 or so points less, I'd strongly consider a kharybdis, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40kChrista Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I nearly bought a Firestorm in 6th & I've got a Fire Raptor & used that before. Both are very solid options but... I'm not sure I want to use a Firestorm because I don't like playing static with fortifications... But then again it is decent. The Fire Raptor is great against FMCs but that's it, it suffers a little against everything else in the sense that it's a bit wasted and not great against armour, plus it has to start in reserve... but yeah, again it's a solid option. I'm going to have to ponder this one as I simply have to find a way to deal with Flyrants without list tailoring (my group plays one list then randomised opponents). Fire raptor does almost everything that heldrake can, but better (except it doesn't ignore cover). It's awesome against MCs and infantry, much better against vehicles.Not to mention that it is an actual gunship, not a flying piece of monkey crap. With reaper battery it's the best any anti-air and anti-MC we have IMO. This is interesting. What book are these rule in, Stronghold Assault? (I own that book, just don't have it on hand.) It's in the downloads section on FW's site Prot. I can't remember if it made it into the FW SM book, Imperial Armor 2, that was released not too long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheesh Mode Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I spoke with Fasha the Dog last night about forgefiends in 1,000pt games. We agreed that at low points levels two forgefiends are effective; your opponent either has too little to counter or ignore them. Also: Forgefiends are our anti-air through volume of fire. 8 S8 shots with Daemon Forge means dead aircraft. But I do not think it is reliable against monstrous creatures. If we ally in Heralds for Divination it might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayray Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I spoke with Fasha the Dog last night about forgefiends in 1,000pt games. We agreed that at low points levels two forgefiends are effective; your opponent either has too little to counter or ignore them. Also: Forgefiends are our anti-air through volume of fire. 8 S8 shots with Daemon Forge means dead aircraft. But I do not think it is reliable against monstrous creatures. If we ally in Heralds for Divination it might. At one point I was taking two forgefiends at 2k against one of my friend's RG list. I had very little success against his storm raven and two storm talons. We're talking about 7-8 games of little success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 So I take that we're basically :cussed this edition for Ack Ack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 well, I mean, there's autohavocs, autofiends, autodrakes, quad guns/icarus, fire raptors w/ reapers, eagles w/ lascannons, allied grinders. None of these are great. We're definitely on the weaker front for anti-air, such that ignoring it outright is probably generally going to be the better choice, but it's not like we have no options. If you really want to push air superiority, you could try running a couple storm eagles with min OS cultists and repairing smiths inside, a couple fire raptors, and a baledrake or two. I'm not sure at what point you'd be running out of points, but It's a build I could see being casually functional, if not competitively optimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I'm going with both the Fire Raptor and the Firestorm Redoubt. The Firestorm does have to shoot the closest flyer/FMC but it's only Nids where that's an issue and even then I hate those electroshock grubs and Harpies need to hit the deck too. Against IG (who I play a lot) it's shooting Vendettas. The Fire Raptor is there for the Flyrants. It's 400 points for both but it's worth it for me to have a chance against Vendetta IG & Skyblight Nids, plus none of it is wasted if my opponents don't bring Flyers/FMCs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 How effective is the fire raptor against tyrants? I didn't think its sponsons could physically point at the same target as the bolt cannon, which puts it at, what, around 2.7 wounds on average vs. a tyrant in a single shooting phase? Half that if it jinks - though I suppose forcing it to jink is good in and of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 The bolt cannon is AP3 so not bad at shooting Flyrants. Not brilliant, no but it's better than hoping for 6s to hit or watching your 2 hades shots that hit & wound save to a 3+. The autocannon sponsons can't shoot ahead yes, which is a bit of a pain, but their AP4 (as those of us who have tried to use hades as anti air have found out) is best used on Harpies & Crones or whatever is around that dies to AP4. Luckily they can shoot multiple targets so I'm only really not using the missiles. It's not amazing no, but like you said it forces jinks & you never know, I might force an unsuccessful grounding test or even kill one. If I get a Flyrant on the ground it's dead, I've made sure of that in my list design. Plus, factor in the Lascannons from the Redoubt and I should be able to at least give those Flyrants a hard time & some kind of run for their money. I'll probably still lose but hey ho, such is life! Let Nids have their day & all that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ju'kosian Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 The fire raptor is in the Imperial armour volume 2, warmachines of the adeptus astartes, I've got it. Sadly it only lists it as an loyalist flyer, and the rules are a bit different then the experimental are, so I don't know how this will work for a chaos version. I've got one for my iron warriors. I tested it in a game with my space wolves vs nids, when it came up it changed the game for me. It killed a crone, a harpy, a flyrant, trygon and a warrior squad in 3 turns. heldrakes with the autocannon are a option for anti air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 heldrakes with the autocannon are a option for anti air. Sadly not against Flyrants or other FMCs with a 3+ they're not. Also, two power weapons short of 200 points for 4 x BS3 hades shots? A bit pricey. Although there is the Vector Strike too which isn't bad. I assume CSM just use the experimental rules PDF for the Fire Raptor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorrance Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/fire-raptor.pdf Which confuses me because as ju'kosian said its in IA volume 2 Space Marine Awesomesauce I can only think that because there is no official chaos raptor that's why they have the PDF up (like Dallas has said) Maybe we will get an imperial armor "chaos here are answers to your problems or at least really big machines you can buy" We have hell talons too, jink them for a 3+ save yeah ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Apparently chaos get the next IA book. I'm going for a reworked vraks lists or at least tractor guard options. I'm running CSM again purely because i bought the Apoc book, and it solved all of my probs with s couple of units. Now I can take what I want and still be effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 @zhokov my fav unit is CSM and I'm glad to have so many options in book. With the Apoc units I'm actually runni.g s fun list - 3 CSM rhino squad, bikers, gisntspawn maulerfiend and whatever I want in the day, which lately us seekers and Khârn IR CS slaaneshi lord on steed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorrance Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 THE Apoc book or one of the war zones. I kinds want to pick up the Pandorax book for some of the Abaddon formations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I hope they go through the trouble of getting more 40k approved tags. I really want more small time formations, like The Purge poison flamers pms and stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Whoaa .... With all this formation / detachment Business in 7th --- are we allowed the chem flamer Purge PMs outside Apoc now ?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorrance Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 The Pandorax book says nothing about its classification, I don't know. FAQ doesn't talk about it, and the FAQ for escalation only has lord of over priced weirdness... Common sense says it's a Lord of War, but in the grim darkness of the far future there is only .... Vague guidance .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Stop playing 40k and do real fun things, here you just Won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 What a useless statement to add.. I'd lean towards yes you can include the purge formation because the IA book the formation is in was written long before formations were a thing in normal games. That's something you'd have to confirm with your opponent though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I was thinking wouldn't it be awesome, if we could put demons in to csm transports? They can't join units that are not demons, but being transported is not joining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Come to think of it I don't see why you can't unless there is something in the daemons codex that doesn't allow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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