How to: winning with CSM in 7th

[incinerator950]

What a useless statement to add..

 

I'd lean towards yes you can include the purge formation because the IA book the formation is in was written long before formations were a thing in normal games. That's something you'd have to confirm with your opponent though.

The 40k approved thing was never magically handwaived.

[Dorrance]

Once again it comes down to a conversation with your opponent or campaign organizer, I mean that's like the MO of warhammer now...

 

I re looked the deamon codex and battle brothers rules and there is noting saying I can't take 25 Bloodthursters I'm a Spartan Assault Tank... I could just be seeing what I want to see here...

[daboarder]

The apoc formations are clearly not for basic 40k.

 

how do you reconcile all the rules they use that are not in the basic 40k rules?

[Dallas Drake]

It depends on your opponent/group. I'm happy to play against unbound & FW, others in my group are not. You should never assume & for that reason you can't really base a TAC list off it.

 

Anyway... Another option for dealing with AA mentioned by multiple vets on here is to just ignore it. For the price on the Raptor & the Redoubt I can add 2 x 5 MoN Spawn to my list giving me: 2 x 5 MoN Spawn, 2 Maulerfiends, 2 x 10 Cultists (for objective camping), 20 Daemonettes inc. Beguilment Herald & 5 MoN bikes with melta, PF & a tele Sorcerer going forward, all at 1250 points.

 

Seems an option since our AA points are badly invested so invest them in what we do well.

[Nehekhare]

how do you reconcile all the rules they use that are not in the basic 40k rules?

 

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/Apocalypse_v1.0_May14.pdf

 

are there any rules left in apoc that are not in the brb?

[Zhukov]

Less useless comments, more content please. If nobody has usefull insights or good questions (questions are almost always good), then silence is the right choice. If that means this threat fades away (untill I have something worthwhile to say of course) then so be it.

 

In case it wasn't clear, this threat was meant as a place where people can discuss how to win with chaos and that implies competitive play. This automaticly rules out things which aren't at allowed at tournaments worth attending, such as Unbound, most Forgeworld garbage and other non-regular 40k allowed things.

 

I don't say this to discourage discussion or mean to sound elitist or whatever. I just want this threat to be of help to a broad amount of viewers and when there is too much local things discussed, its harder to have meaningfull discussions suited for a larger audience.

 

Use common sense about what's appropriate and what not, I'm not going to spell it out.

[hornywingythingy]

^ the guys on the 11th company have been discussing running spawntide with a crimson slaughter demon sorcerer and malefic, with a screamerstar allied backup, not sure how it would do, but it's an interesting iteration of spawntide, giving more psychic defence, and the option for malefic summoning to help out.

[the jeske]

The best way for chaos to deal with air stuff is to ignore it, am not saying not to try to take down FMC[specialy if there are extra VP linked to downing them]. The question now is can the spawn and defilers survive long enough [and if yes then how long will this last. right now as far as CSM builds go I think they do ok] ? Will av13+ spam and the counters to it be a thing in 7th[and if yes how much. and if not can we play a viable LR rush].

 

 

Ah and one more thing, remember there is no csm anymore[even less then it wasn't in 6th]. If in your enviroment you can play csm with let say ork or necron and it works, give it a go. It will offten end like it did for people who tried demons in 6th, but if it wins it is better.

 

 

 

the problem with demonic sorc is that there aren't many places you can put them in , they still require as much power dice to work as invisi sorcs and do the same as tzeech heralds only for more points. IMO if sorcs then invisi spam with a biker/spawn death star. 2-3 sorc[depending if demon caster ally are in or not , and if belfegor is taken or not]. Otherwise taking a single sorc to sometimes do something is too random[and we already have ton of random with the new missions, psy powers , way stuff is dispeled etc].

[Sception]

many tournaments do allow forgeworld content. I don't see why fire raptors, storm eagles, giant spawn, spartans or the like would necessarily need to be excluded from discussions of competitive CSMs unless you're discussing a specific tournament format which doesn't allow them.

 

I like the idea of land raider rush with daemons inside, but since the minimum unit size on daemon infantry is the max capacity of our regular land raiders, it would require FW variants to transport more than minimum units without attached characters.

[the jeske]

Most tournament in main land europe don't. Guess from where does Z and me come from.

[Zhukov]

Last time I checked the important tournaments in the United States of America were fairly restrictive as well.

[Sheesh Mode]

Do they differentiate between Forge World and Lord of Wars? We may be able to include a Skull Crusher of Khorne to add to our offensive power. 

[Excessus]

Well, shooting swooping FMCs might actually help your opponent if they are assault focused. If they want to assault, they have to be down on the ground sooner or later, not shooting at them delays that for a bit and when they go down to assault, you have a nice opportunity to take a few wounds.

 

As for winning with CSM and specific units, I really really like my little lvl 3 sorcerer with bike, 4++ and familiar. I usually take biomancy or telepathy on him (just like everybody else I guess) and he always performs well...what a good guy he is... :)

 

 

Most tournament in main land europe don't. Guess from where does Z and me come from.

...if you're from Pietropavlosks you're pretty far from "main land Europe" though...

[Dorrance]

 

In case it wasn't clear, this threat was meant as a place where people can discuss how to win with chaos and that implies competitive play. This automaticly rules out things which aren't at allowed at tournaments worth attending, such as Unbound, most Forgeworld garbage and other non-regular 40k allowed things.

 

Not at all trying to attack but If you are able to pin-point what regular 40k is these days then there needs to be a pinned thread of what that means.

 

For example our area is doing a multi day 1500 point tournament with two seperate 500 point side boards that you can sub in, can only choose one side board to sub in but from that side board you can sub in what ever you want (like Magic the Gathering)

 

Big Big Big tournaments in the USA, Bay Area Open, Las Vegas Open, Nova Open to name some allow forge world, some have the players vote on what is "legal" for the event, for example BAO is allowing Lords of War but not the Transcendant C'Tan, that tournament is part of a circut (I forget the name) that lasts a year and has an over all winner and winners by seperate armies.

 

Yea there are some posts that are useless (most of mine are) but its hard to say what is relevent towards competative gaming, I wanna show up with a allied Imperial Knight and see if that helps for example, some areas that person wouldnt be allowind to play with come the apoc, my area says the rule book says you can and here are the negatives towards it but you can.

 

Creative Inspiration is sometihng thats hard to pin down, and alot of people wont comment and say HEY I used my fire raptor and it was BOSS against Skyblight, but they might respond to someone asking, how is the Fire Raptor against FMC.

 

Again, I hate how tone is not apart of text based communication, I'm not trying to attack or anything and also I agree with most of what you said, sometimes (I am a guilty of this as well) people post and frankly their post is in the wrong thread or was not really that relevant to the overall topic.

 

 

DEAMONS AND EMBARKED

 

Even if you can't use forge world, you get 10 deamons in a LR, you can use the LR to get yourself into better position to disembark turn 1 to give yourself a nice Deamon Bomb BETA strike.

 

Get your Great Unclean One potentially up the Board 18 inches (30 if you front load your deployment zone) and dont scatter if you take plague bearers, this combined with Spawn and Maulerfiends could be very tricky to fight with everything in your face right away.

[Dallas Drake]

All tournament 40k is competitive, not all competitive 40k is tournament.

 

I play against a bunch of guys who have little to no interest in tournaments (mainly because of hectic jobs), but they still bring nasty lists (3 Flyrants + Skyblight is just one recent example I've been talking about) to the table - is that not competitive?

 

Unbound is in the rulebook and most FW is 40k allowed so I really don't see the problem discussing it, so long as that discussion is structured and people check their spelling and grammar. Personally I have no desire to play as unbound but I'll play against it (providing it's not daft).

 

Also, surely just because some US tournament (or wherever) doesn't allow FW (let's be honest TOs are a rule unto themselves for deciding what is allowed, some even banned Skyblight, a legal dataslate - disapprove sure, but ban it?) that doesn't change our need as CSM players to discuss how we might win against hard, competitive lists in games of 40k. If it's that much of an issue then someone could start a specific 'how to win with unbound lists', that seems like a logical idea.

 

Frankly, the fact we need to visit every minute angle shows how bad our codex is against the top tier in 7th edition. Sad face...

[incinerator950]

So Chaos marines are officially worse than Tyranids and Dark Angels?

 

My original statement wasn't meant to incite a fw allowing argument. Since people use them, you'd think we could discuss talking about winning against such things.

[Dallas Drake]

Argh, just lost my post. I didn't say we were the worst, but yeah I think we're as bad or worse than those two yes. At least Nids have FMC spam & Skyblight. Not really in the know on DA (no interest in them, not met a DA player, ever) but I assume they have combat squads & ATSKNF?

 

Anyway, I agree with you. I think FW is a part of 40k life now so there's no harm in briefly discussing it for those who use it. Like I said before, it could even be in a separate thread if the mods wanted that.

 

Edit: iPhone predictive typing :|

[hornywingythingy]

So Chaos marines are officially worse than Tyranids and Dark Angels?.

I don't think there's any debate that things are pretty bad for CSM, maybe not nids bad, but bad, we are definitely bottom tier. We don't do objective secured spam well, we don't do av spam well, our air was nerfed, our lords are pale imitations of the imperial equivalents.

[tbone]

I think Z was trying to get the discussion more focused and useful for most CSM players. Because FW and other irregular 40k aren't used by most people, Tactical discussion on these topics may end up being just a conversation with oneself, and not doing much for the thread but derailing it. I think it's a good rule of thumb to stick to GW rules and battle forged lists.

 

Moving forward...

 

I'm planning on trying out the Mayhem Helbrute formation in conjunction with some Maulerfiends and nurgle spawn rushing forward. With all those walkers barreling down on them turn two or three, some will get their target. I think 3 deep striking dreads that come all at the same turn will mess with the opponents head. Would eldar fire their shields knowing meltas can suddenly appear in their rear?

Another consideration for people. Taking out a LoW, another thing I see us struggling with. 2 or 3maulers won't do much against a stompa. Again we won't be shooting anything with 12 hp off the table. But maybe 4 or 5 walkers jumping on him could take him out before he swings...??? Your thoughts?

[Tenebris]

Recently I have hit a brick wall with the following army setups:

 

- Wyvern spam of the Astra Militarum

- Wraith Eldar list with Iyanden

- Ork Bikers spam

- Drop Pod Sternguard with Inquisition

 

I have played a dozen games against the army setups from above and it is damn humiliating. My CSM get torn to shreds like no ones business and I especially suffer the Wraith and the Wyvern lists. Both are deadly and tough, and while the Wyven effectively beats my army with Pinning tests and massive casualties (embarked or not), the Wraith army is simply too tough. 

 

I can play almost every model in our book though I refuse to field Mark of Nurgle. I know that it is the go to mark for everything but have we really come down to this?

 

Now I have tested the double Maulerfiend lists as well as Spawn spam, same with Daemons allies, but I cannot get the edge over the armies from above.

 

In my observation I have found that the transportation in the CSM book is still very horrible in the 7th despite the buff to vehicles and I have come to dread Sternguard rerolls. With those guys there is simply no escape, for on average even before I enter melee with them I suffer around 2-3 casualties from the Overwatch and there is a nasty Chapter Master in there with the classic goodies. Wisdom would dictate to throw more bodies at it, but can we really do it? I think not for once you engage those Sternguard it is a meatgrinder, they shoot and they still stand a chance in melee.

 

As for the Eldar... I have come to hate, but really really hate the Wraith lists. An average bolter wounds on 6s and with Plasma is either go big or go home, exponentially putting way too many points on my models who die very easily (especially against scythes and that flamer). 

 

 

To scrap a victory I usually have to rely on objectives and my years of experience, simply avoiding many things and hugging cover or hiding like a neophyte yet against the new guard even this tactics are wasted since the Wyvers is king. It reliably butchers or pins my units and we all know how subpar are the cults units bar the Plague Marines...

 

The sad thing is that if I win it is usually the merit of my Daemon allies. 

 

In short I need your help Obi... ahem Chaos Lords. 

[Zhukov]

Yes I just wanted to prevent the thread from going a 1000 directions. I didn't call out anybody specific and I also realise 'meta's' always differ a bit from country to country, which is no problem.

 

Just use common sense and all should be fine.

 

 

Tenebris: Can you be more specific regarding what you run Tenebris? Because, while other armies can get away with 'normal' lists, I feel Chaos really can't. They already can't for 2 editions straight now. To use numbers to show what I mean:

Mediocre list from a strong codex (Eldar, Space Marines, Necrons etc) will still net you let's say 7/10 in effectiveness.

Mediocre list from CSM, you're looking at a 4/10. There isn't much of a middle ground, simply because we have so few good units. It's either good or pretty crap I'm afraid. This works through in the final list. Or well, you can end up with a 7/10 ofc, it just requires way more carefull list design than it would for other (overall better) codices.

 

That's why I advice to aim for strong lists most of the time with CSM. Start with a good basis and then see how you can take that recipe and improve it to fit your own taste.

 

Like: Okay, you don't like Nurgle Oblits, what can serve as a substitute? Maybe full Lasscannon Preds? You don't like shooty Dreads? What if you replace that with Blastmaster squads? Don't like Nurgle Lords? Maybe Tzeentch Lords with Sigil on Jetbikes are a decent enough alternative? You don't like Nurgle Spawn, well probably don't run Spawn then because T5 spawn aren't nearly as good. (Only reason I'd ever consider running regular spawn is for a Juggerlord, but even a Juggerlord isn't as solid as a Nurgle Bike lord for example).

 

You'll almost always sacrifice power if you don't want to run specific units which just happen to be best units, but you can try to limit the damage this will do. If you both field too many bad units ánd have a bad general list setup, you just end up with a bad list which can't compete with strong codices, it's as simple as that. You cannot afford mediocre builds with weak codices and expect to have much of a chance. Sad? Yes, but it's how it is. Adapt or move on is always my advice in the end. I realised finally after many years that it's useless for me to switch armies, I just like CSM the most and thus I accepted what that means.

[Sheesh Mode]

So Chaos marines are officially worse than Tyranids and Dark Angels?

 

My original statement wasn't meant to incite a fw allowing argument. Since people use them, you'd think we could discuss talking about winning against such things.

No. Torrent of fire indicates we are the 6th 'most winning' army in 7th edition. According to their roster we are above Grey Knights and Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard). However, the armies are under represented; the winners also have the largest number of games. 

 

I think Z was trying to get the discussion more focused and useful for most CSM players. Because FW and other irregular 40k aren't used by most people, Tactical discussion on these topics may end up being just a conversation with oneself, and not doing much for the thread but derailing it. I think it's a good rule of thumb to stick to GW rules and battle forged lists.

 

Moving forward...

 

I'm planning on trying out the Mayhem Helbrute formation in conjunction with some Maulerfiends and nurgle spawn rushing forward. With all those walkers barreling down on them turn two or three, some will get their target. I think 3 deep striking dreads that come all at the same turn will mess with the opponents head. Would eldar fire their shields knowing meltas can suddenly appear in their rear?

Another consideration for people. Taking out a LoW, another thing I see us struggling with. 2 or 3maulers won't do much against a stompa. Again we won't be shooting anything with 12 hp off the table. But maybe 4 or 5 walkers jumping on him could take him out before he swings...??? Your thoughts?

 

1st: It is legal to use Lords of War in regular games (which has yet to be defined), their rules have been incorporated in the new rulebook. Their stats have not. 

 

2nd. While I like the idea of deepstriking suicide-brutes it is too unreliable. Remember the deepstriking landraiders. 

 

@ Tenebris: What do you use? Thus far I have consistently beaten Imperial Guard with my Chosen rush. My most challenging opponent was a guard equivalent: Death Korps of Krieg. 

[incinerator950]

...what?

[Tenebris]

I run the same list from the first page of this topic, 2x Chaos Rhino with CSM (2x Plasma, MB, PW...), Helcult, 2x Maulerfiends, Drake and then I shuffle the remaining points on various HQ which either go the support role (Sorcerer), fluff role (need that for "fluff points") or as a cheap beatstick in a horde of expendable Cultists. Though I more and more shift the remaining points to Horrors of Tzeentch, Herald (ML3, Disk, Portal if points), Screamers and a Soul Grinder. I use the daemons to summon other units on demand like Plaguebearers or Daemonettes. I have found that the Maelstrom mission place a great burden on the HQ, since my adversaries will usually go bonkers when trying to kill my warlord or psyker, thus I prefer them cheap, expendable and more as a support than as main players. It is mostly a Word Bearers themed list (since I cannot reasonably play the Thousand Sons...). 

 

The main problems I have is that the other army lists are so much much more viable than anything I can put on the table as a CSM player, so far I am the only one in my club to actually play CSM and the only representative of team Chaos in my area. Also some obscene things are being seen recently, like Unbound First Company of Ultramarines (Terminator/Sternguard spam) or a heavy load of Imperial Knights. 

 

Now overall I get it that Chaos needs to enter melee to do something useful and thus I load on fast units like Rhino mounted squads, Spawn, Bikers... but I feel very sidelined with this thus I usually tend to remove Bikers (for every enemy list has them in some form) but the sad thing is that there is little alternative to them

 

My main concern is ATM the Imperial Guard, they are dominating, especially when combined with Marines, a Knight and the Inquisition. They rock, plain and simple and the amount of rerolls nowadays is obscene. It matters not how many squads I embark on transports, for very very rarely a single Rhino makes it to turn three, for it is ungodly to look at Ignore Cover and rerollable lascannons in every IG platoon, and once they pop up everything that has some armour it is time for the Wyverns to ramp up some easy kills. 

[Sheesh Mode]

...what?

http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/stats/armies

 

 

I run the same list from the first page of this topic, 2x Chaos Rhino with CSM (2x Plasma, MB, PW...), Helcult, 2x Maulerfiends, Drake and then I shuffle the remaining points on various HQ which either go the support role (Sorcerer), fluff role (need that for "fluff points") or as a cheap beatstick in a horde of expendable Cultists. Though I more and more shift the remaining points to Horrors of Tzeentch, Herald (ML3, Disk, Portal if points), Screamers and a Soul Grinder. I use the daemons to summon other units on demand like Plaguebearers or Daemonettes. I have found that the Maelstrom mission place a great burden on the HQ, since my adversaries will usually go bonkers when trying to kill my warlord or psyker, thus I prefer them cheap, expendable and more as a support than as main players. It is mostly a Word Bearers themed list (since I cannot reasonably play the Thousand Sons...). 

 

The main problems I have is that the other army lists are so much much more viable than anything I can put on the table as a CSM player, so far I am the only one in my club to actually play CSM and the only representative of team Chaos in my area. Also some obscene things are being seen recently, like Unbound First Company of Ultramarines (Terminator/Sternguard spam) or a heavy load of Imperial Knights. 

 

Now overall I get it that Chaos needs to enter melee to do something useful and thus I load on fast units like Rhino mounted squads, Spawn, Bikers... but I feel very sidelined with this thus I usually tend to remove Bikers (for every enemy list has them in some form) but the sad thing is that there is little alternative to them

 

My main concern is ATM the Imperial Guard, they are dominating, especially when combined with Marines, a Knight and the Inquisition. They rock, plain and simple and the amount of rerolls nowadays is obscene. It matters not how many squads I embark on transports, for very very rarely a single Rhino makes it to turn three, for it is ungodly to look at Ignore Cover and rerollable lascannons in every IG platoon, and once they pop up everything that has some armour it is time for the Wyverns to ramp up some easy kills. 

Have you tried landraiders? At this point that is all I know that is reliable in our codex.