How to: winning with CSM in 7th

[incinerator950]

Acronym for Objective Secured.

[Emperors Immortals]

 

 

@ Sheesh Mode

I can't get over the fact that only 15 models & 1 tank have OS. Do you not think that will be a problem?

What is OS? Does it have to do with firepower?

Pretty sure its "Objective Secured" a troops unit that overrides non-troops units claims to objectives.

[Zhukov]

But what is your fav unit from CSM to play? Do you ever try to make it work on the table (if you still play)?

I'm still working on CC NM, I think they can be strong for social and semi-comp. Just need to stop relying on the blasters so much.

My favourite unit is probably Plague Marines. Yes, I still play and I also try to still get the most out of them. I tried them for 6th as well, but 6th clearly wasn't a good edition for rhino based marine units. For 7th they certainly gained ground, although the Champion of Chaos rule continues to piss me off greatly, the more with the change to how wounds carry over from challenges, it's absolutely terrible and Possessed also suffer greatly from this. In case you didn't notice: The last build I suggest doesn't rely on units with the Champion of Chaos rule at all, only Cultists have it and those die in combat either way.

I might have an even greater love for Khorne Berzerkers, a unit which I could use with great effectiveness throughout most of 5th edition. This love might be partly nostalgic though, because I haven't tried them in 6th at all. In this case theory was and is enough for me: Without being able to charge from a (destroyed) rhino, I saw and see little to no merrit in playing with them anymore. The Champion of Chaos rule also doesn't help here. Land Raider with Khârn and a unit of Berzekers in 7th is still an appealing idea, but one which I financially don't want to support. If somebody wants to volunteer and give me the money for it then I'll gladly play with that unit on some tournaments

Noise Marines have gotten better in 7th, both the long range and short range version. Blast Master is an even better weapon in 7th I believe and Rhino based assault'ish Noise Marines also got a pretty huge boost. The challenge with a Noise Marine based lists is simply in my opinion: Handling a lot of (heavy) armour, both speaking about Armour Value and 2+ save units. For setups I'd lean towards 5 man with Blastmaster only and 5 man with Doom Siren, Rhino and probably meltabomb + CCW's (155 points in total).

Multiple Bikes with meltas to support them maybe? With Maulers or Oblits in Heavy support?

You'd get:

Chaos Lord; MoS, Sigil, Powerfist, Lightning Claw, Bike 165

5 Noise Marines; Siren, 5 CCW's, meltabomb, rhino 155

5 Noise Marines; Siren, 5 CCW's, meltabomb, rhino 155

5 Noise Marines; Siren, 4 CCW's, meltabomb, rhino 154

5 Noise Marines; Blastmaster 125

5 Noise Marines; Blastmaster 125

5 Noise Marines; Blastmaster 125

5 Bikes; 2x meltagun 130

5 Bikes; 2x meltagun 130

5 Bikes; 2x meltagun 130

2 Obliterators; MoN 152

2 Obliterators; MoN 152

2 Obliterators; MoN 152

Total: 1850

One more on daemon princes: why would you run them without both weapon (mace/axe/brand) and psyker-levels? They weren't that good naked in 6th, and with smash nerved, they haven't got any better.

Because it keeps them cheap while they fulfill a particular role. The setup of most units depends greatly on what you take them for. They have gotten worse in many ways, but not in the role of simply flying them up as threat while Jinking for a 2+ save. It's how I used them in 5th as well and I love it.

[Dorrance]

I know this is just an example list but why wouldn't two maulers work with a build like this?

 

Also, overall I have been sinking some mad points into psychers either a deamon prince or sorcerer w voices and deamon heart to deal with perils. Makes me wonder if it's even worth it to try to summon a unit of deamons. Prince runs around 305 when done right and Sorcerer is about 200, It sometimes feels like I am sinking too many points into a one trick poney.

[qyntius]

Noise Marines have gotten better in 7th, both the long range and short range version. Blast Master is an even better weapon in 7th I believe and Rhino based assault'ish Noise Marines also got a pretty huge boost. The challenge with a Noise Marine based lists is simply in my opinion: Handling a lot of (heavy) armour, both speaking about Armour Value and 2+ save units. For setups I'd lean towards 5 man with Blastmaster only and 5 man with Doom Siren, Rhino and probably meltabomb + CCW's (155 points in total).

Multiple Bikes with meltas to support them maybe? With Maulers or Oblits in Heavy support?

 

You'd get:

 

Chaos Lord; MoS, Sigil, Powerfist, Lightning Claw, Bike 165

5 Noise Marines; Siren, 5 CCW's, meltabomb, rhino 155

5 Noise Marines; Siren, 5 CCW's, meltabomb, rhino 155

5 Noise Marines; Siren, 4 CCW's, meltabomb, rhino 154

5 Noise Marines; Blastmaster 125

5 Noise Marines; Blastmaster 125

5 Noise Marines; Blastmaster 125

5 Bikes; 2x meltagun 130

5 Bikes; 2x meltagun 130

5 Bikes; 2x meltagun 130

2 Obliterators; MoN 152

2 Obliterators; MoN 152

2 Obliterators; MoN 152

Total: 1850

 

 

 

One more on daemon princes: why would you run them without both weapon (mace/axe/brand) and psyker-levels? They weren't that good naked in 6th, and with smash nerved, they haven't got any better.

Because it keeps them cheap while they fulfill a particular role. The setup of most units depends greatly on what you take them for. They have gotten worse in many ways, but not in the role of simply flying them up as threat while Jinking for a 2+ save. It's how I used them in 5th as well and I love it.

 

 

This looks like a direction I'm taking my lists, but why did you not give the blastmaster nm rhino's? You think their range is long enough? Don't own enough Rhino's? I really like the idea of assault noise marines though.

[Sception]

My favorite unit is a big deep striking chaos terminator retinue.  I no longer even try to play it, because of too many bad experiences with unaided deep strike scatter mishaps.

[Midnightmare]

My favorite unit is a big deep striking chaos terminator retinue. I no longer even try to play it, because of too many bad experiences with unaided deep strike scatter mishaps.

If only the Bringers of Despair had this option outside of planet strike. *Sighs*

[Sception]

You know, if they could deep strike without scatter, I'd gladly pay the 40+ points a model for them.

[Zhukov]

I know this is just an example list but why wouldn't two maulers work with a build like this?

Indeed, why wouldn't it? I'm not saying it doesn't! I don't post every possible kind of list and variation, I'm just now and then giving a list as example and/or to give people ideas.

 

This looks like a direction I'm taking my lists, but why did you not give the blastmaster nm rhino's? You think their range is long enough? Don't own enough Rhino's? I really like the idea of assault noise marines though.

Matter of points. I don't find them necessary for Blastmaster squads. It's good, I just chose for another unit instead. (in this case it would cost you a bike unit or Oblits for example if you want to keep the build the same while including more Rhinos)

[the jeske]

People have to remember that the list shown here are mostly goldfish builds.

 

And rhinos aren't realy needed with 3x5 biker and 3x5 syren MSU.  as nice as MSU is in 7th, there are still missions that can give a lot of points to the enemy , if too much 5 man meq/av11 or lower is used.

[Sheesh Mode]

Acronym for Objective Secured.

@ Sheesh Mode

I can't get over the fact that only 15 models & 1 tank have OS. Do you not think that will be a problem?

What is OS? Does it have to do with firepower?

Pretty sure its "Objective Secured" a troops unit that overrides non-troops units claims to objectives.

Oh! Well then, no. I have 4 troops choices because I use the Black Legion dataslate and the Helbrute dataslate. I do pay the Veteran of the Long War tax, but haven't found it to be much of a problem.

But what is your fav unit from CSM to play? Do you ever try to make it work on the table (if you still play)?

I'm still working on CC NM, I think they can be strong for social and semi-comp. Just need to stop relying on the blasters so much.

I might have an even greater love for Khorne Berzerkers, a unit which I could use with great effectiveness throughout most of 5th edition. This love might be partly nostalgic though, because I haven't tried them in 6th at all. In this case theory was and is enough for me: Without being able to charge from a (destroyed) rhino, I saw and see little to no merrit in playing with them anymore. The Champion of Chaos rule also doesn't help here. Land Raider with Khârn and a unit of Berzekers in 7th is still an appealing idea, but one which I financially don't want to support. If somebody wants to volunteer and give me the money for it then I'll gladly play with that unit on some tournaments

Khorne Berserkers are sexy in concept but not in application. They have no power weapons and are more expensive at their base cost than Chosen which can accomplish the same task and bring assault weapons such as meltas and flamers. In my opinion until Berserkers are given access to better weaponry they will remain ignored.

[Dallas Drake]

 

 

Acronym for Objective Secured.

 

 

@ Sheesh Mode

I can't get over the fact that only 15 models & 1 tank have OS. Do you not think that will be a problem?

What is OS? Does it have to do with firepower?

Pretty sure its "Objective Secured" a troops unit that overrides non-troops units claims to objectives.

Oh! Well then, no. I have 4 troops choices because I use the Black Legion dataslate and the Helbrute dataslate. I do pay the Veteran of the Long War tax, but haven't found it to be much of a problem.

Helcult Cultists don't have OS. So really, all you have is 15 Chosen who can contest enemy OS units. I'm not trying to be pedantic, it's an issue I've had/am having in my army lists & frankly I'm not even sure what to do - do I go MSU, do I ally in Daemons, or do I just carry on like I did in 6th? If you play against Orks or Nids or any army with cheap fast troops you're going to really struggle to score or hold objectives, doubly so in Maelstrom where being stuck with crap objectives or unable to achieve them is a sure fire way to lose. Of course, if you plan to just wipe out the enemy troops then fine but the cultists could be run 2x10 to save points, I can't see the Helbrute needing 45 x 3+ saves.

[Dallas Drake]

Yeah, Berzerkers are still rubbish. The only advantage they have over MoK Chosen is Fearless.

 

Zhukov. That NM list, what would you do if you came up against FMCs, like say Skyblight Nids? I'm just curious because I also feel like NM have potential in this edition & the lists I always seem to suffer against are FMC heavy.

[Prot]

Wait a second... Cultists in a Helcult aren't super scoring? Ugh. That blows.

 

Edit: Actually I can't find any reason they aren't super scoring. They still come from the troops section, they're just outside your codexes FOC, as an allie's Troops would be. I'm still considering them Objective Secured.

[Zhukov]

Zhukov. That NM list, what would you do if you came up against FMCs, like say Skyblight Nids? I'm just curious because I also feel like NM have potential in this edition & the lists I always seem to suffer against are FMC heavy.

You pray your oppenent is an idiot while focusing on the mission and the few ground forces he has. There is little to nothing you can do against 3 Flyrants with 2 TL devs each. In 6th it was already hard to kill 2 of them and that was while I played with 2 Heldrakes. In 7th with the change to FMC's and the nerf to Heldrakes it's sheer impossible to kill 3.

 

Other FMC's aren't nearly as much of a threat as Flyrants. Flyrants are the only FMC with a *lot* of firepower, who don't need to land to have a big impact on the game. Landed FMC's we can handle, flying FMC's not so much.

[Sheesh Mode]

I can't see the Helbrute needing 45 x 3+ saves.

 

He doesn't. I put a minimum squad of Autogun cultists on a backfield objective and run the remaining 35 in front of the Helbrute. There aren't many armies that can deal with that efficiently, so I've yet to see it utterly fail at its purpose.

[Dallas Drake]

 

I can't see the Helbrute needing 45 x 3+ saves.

 

He doesn't. I put a minimum squad of Autogun cultists on a backfield objective and run the remaining 35 in front of the Helbrute. There aren't many armies that can deal with that efficiently, so I've yet to see it utterly fail at its purpose.

 

 

Fair enough, if it works for you then cool. Not being OS though is why I dropped the Helcult from my lists.

[Dallas Drake]

 

 

Zhukov. That NM list, what would you do if you came up against FMCs, like say Skyblight Nids? I'm just curious because I also feel like NM have potential in this edition & the lists I always seem to suffer against are FMC heavy.

You pray your oppenent is an idiot while focusing on the mission and the few ground forces he has. There is little to nothing you can do against 3 Flyrants with 2 TL devs each. In 6th it was already hard to kill 2 of them and that was while I played with 2 Heldrakes. In 7th with the change to FMC's and the nerf to Heldrakes it's sheer impossible to kill 3.

 

Other FMC's aren't nearly as much of a threat as Flyrants. Flyrants are the only FMC with a *lot* of firepower, who don't need to land to have a big impact on the game. Landed FMC's we can handle, flying FMC's not so much.

Yeah, I had a feeling you were going to say that. I think you're dead right about focusing on their ground troops, it's just the damage that TL Devourers do (now at BS4) against CSMs & the fact we pretty much can't do anything back.

3 Flyrants easily remove 9 or 10 MEQs a turn. I suppose Telepathy (Invisibility) is always an option :(

[incinerator950]

Would a firestorm or Fire raptor help?

[Dallas Drake]

I nearly bought a Firestorm in 6th & I've got a Fire Raptor & used that before. Both are very solid options but... I'm not sure I want to use a Firestorm because I don't like playing static with fortifications... But then again it is decent.

The Fire Raptor is great against FMCs but that's it, it suffers a little against everything else in the sense that it's a bit wasted and not great against armour, plus it has to start in reserve... but yeah, again it's a solid option.

I'm going to have to ponder this one as I simply have to find a way to deal with Flyrants without list tailoring (my group plays one list then randomised opponents).

 

Edit: I've done some thinking and despite my reluctance to take a static fortification I re-visited the idea and rules of the Firestorm Redoubt (as suggested by Incinerator950 above). I think the pros of the Firestorm outweigh the cons. It's only BS2 and it has to shoot the nearest FMC/Flyer but it's also got 2 x Quad Icarus Lascannons (Heavy 2, Skyfire, Interceptor, Twin-linked) and AV14 which is nice, and it now allows up to 6 models to fire out of it. What I'm thinking is;

 

Firestorm Redoubt

6 Havocs with 4 Autocannons.

 

That gives me 4 x BS2 Twin-linked S9 AP2 Skyfire/Interceptor shots (at the nearest FMC/Flyer) and 8 x S7 AP4 shots, all 'safely' tucked up in AV14.

 

Not a bad fire base for taking out FMCs and Flyers and against lists with no FMCs or Flyers I still get to hammer ground targets.

 

Can anyone spot any holes in this logic?

[Zhukov]

Yeah, I had a feeling you were going to say that. I think you're dead right about focusing on their ground troops, it's just the damage that TL Devourers do (now at BS4) against CSMs & the fact we pretty much can't do anything back.

3 Flyrants easily remove 9 or 10 MEQs a turn. I suppose Telepathy (Invisibility) is always an option

Yeah no really, 3 Flyrants are stupid. I do not approve the Skyblight formation for competitive play lol. 2 are barely doable.

But I'll play some games against the best Tyranid player of our country in a bit, I'll have a clearer view on the situation in 7th on the matter after that.

[Dallas Drake]

Yeah, I had a feeling you were going to say that. I think you're dead right about focusing on their ground troops, it's just the damage that TL Devourers do (now at BS4) against CSMs & the fact we pretty much can't do anything back.

3 Flyrants easily remove 9 or 10 MEQs a turn. I suppose Telepathy (Invisibility) is always an option

Yeah no really, 3 Flyrants are stupid. I do not approve the Skyblight formation for competitive play lol. 2 are barely doable.

But I'll play some games against the best Tyranid player of our country in a bit, I'll have a clearer view on the situation in 7th on the matter after that.

Please can you do a post about this or a bat-rep, or whatever you have time for. It will be interesting to see what they take and the tactics they use - as well as how you fair against them!

I expect any 'competitive' Tyranid list to take at least dual-Flyrant, maybe even 3. One small chink in the Flyrants 'armour' is that they often extend their very precious synapse too far ahead of the rest of the army, this isn't a problem for other Nid FMCs as I think they're all LD10 but for the rest of the bugs it can be a problem. Hit their synapse on the ground (which tends to be single/dual Zoanthropes or min sized Warrior units) and it can cause some real problems for them.

Personally, I'm going to go ahead and use the Firestorm Redoubt, Nid players get in such a flap over AV14 it's quite funny.

[incinerator950]

I don't even know what I want to do anymore.

[Deadman Wade]

I nearly bought a Firestorm in 6th & I've got a Fire Raptor & used that before. Both are very solid options but... I'm not sure I want to use a Firestorm because I don't like playing static with fortifications... But then again it is decent.

 

The Fire Raptor is great against FMCs but that's it, it suffers a little against everything else in the sense that it's a bit wasted and not great against armour, plus it has to start in reserve... but yeah, again it's a solid option.

 

I'm going to have to ponder this one as I simply have to find a way to deal with Flyrants without list tailoring (my group plays one list then randomised opponents).

 

 

Fire raptor does almost everything that heldrake can, but better (except it doesn't ignore cover). It's awesome against MCs and infantry, much better against vehicles.

Not to mention that it is an actual gunship, not a flying piece of monkey crap. With reaper battery it's the best any anti-air and anti-MC we have IMO.

[Prot]

 

I nearly bought a Firestorm in 6th & I've got a Fire Raptor & used that before. Both are very solid options but... I'm not sure I want to use a Firestorm because I don't like playing static with fortifications... But then again it is decent.

 

The Fire Raptor is great against FMCs but that's it, it suffers a little against everything else in the sense that it's a bit wasted and not great against armour, plus it has to start in reserve... but yeah, again it's a solid option.

 

I'm going to have to ponder this one as I simply have to find a way to deal with Flyrants without list tailoring (my group plays one list then randomised opponents).

 

Fire raptor does almost everything that heldrake can, but better (except it doesn't ignore cover). It's awesome against MCs and infantry, much better against vehicles.

Not to mention that it is an actual gunship, not a flying piece of monkey crap. With reaper battery it's the best any anti-air and anti-MC we have IMO.

 

 

This is interesting. What book are these rule in, Stronghold Assault? (I own that book, just don't have it on hand.)

 

Honestly I use Fortifications all the time with my Dark Angels. I think they're underrated in Maelstrom for 7th since the deploy order lets you place the Fort after the objectives are out.

 

Typically I use the Bastion with Quad and the number one annoyance is still the Flyrants as I just can't seem to ground them. Although I've played a Bastion almost exclusively since 7th came out, I just found out that I'm not sure anyone can target the gun emplacement specifically (It can be hit by a blast)... Not sure if this is true.

 

For my D.A. I'll often combat squad a tatical squad and put 5 up there, and at end game just run out and grab an objective with a super scoring unit. So for Chaos I can see using the Helcult formation, putting some Cultists in charge of the gun (depends on the Fort for capacity.) Or as mentioned I guess a Havok squad would do (I've used devs as well).

 

Question though: I'm assuming no one can man the Firestorm? Using the gun emplacement on the Bastion helps with BS, but it can fire automated mode.