How to: winning with CSM in 7th

[Xenith]

Ok, on another not, now that we have lost puppet master, what are counters for the Wall of Russes that I am seeing more and more frequently?

 

Obliterators are generally good, but inefficient with a lot of tanks on teh board, 218pts to bring 3 lascannons to the table every 2 turns means that I cant kill tanks fast enough. Should I be deepstriking them to make the most of the multimeltas?

 

Melta bikers? Termicide? What am I missing?

[TheDevourer]

Maulerfiends work quite well ;)

[minionboy]

Lately, I can say what's been working best for my Chaos Space Marines is simply focus.  In terms of list building, it really comes down to picking one thing you want to do, and doing it well.

 

For example, I've been starting to have luck with an army based around the idea of threat overload (Warpsmith, 2 giant spawn, 6x5 CSM in rhinos with various weapons, a drake, 2 helblades, 3 auto/las predators).  This style lists provides a ton of threats to fire at, but none of them individually are worth more than 115 points (drake aside).  Most players are able to kill 3 units a turn early in the game, but when you've got 20 units on the board for them to shoot at, people start to struggle.

 

If you want a shooty army, focus on that, take the options that are the most efficient shooting for the points, things like predators, 5-man noise marine squads, and Hellblades.

 

If you want a combat army, focus on the options that are the most cost efficient and fast, like maulers, spawn, mounted characters, when it comes to troops, I've found it better to take a list with a small amount of troops (often for me 2x10 CSM in rhinos) and just spend all the other points you can on jamming as many threats down your opponents throat as possible.

 

Also, don't be afraid to experiment, that's what the CSM book is all about, there are so many options and many ways that you can equip units, you'd be surprised how different units can perform (for example, if you want combat marines, Noise Marines with combat weapons are only 2 points more than normal CSM with MoS, but also gain fearless, so don't rule them out for being a "shooty unit").  In my experimenting I also found that Mayhem Packs with Multi-meltas and thunder hammers work quite well, they deep strike and are a big enough threat that they cannot be ignored, if you're playing a fast combat army, they're just suddenly 3 more AV12 targets your opponent will have to deal with right away.

[Strazhakov]

 

[...] if you want combat marines, Noise Marines with combat weapons are only 2 points more than normal CSM with MoS, but also gain fearless, so don't rule them out for being a "shooty unit"). 

 

In my experience Noise Marines with CCW are the supreme melee marines in the game. Initiative 5 is soo important and with the Icon of Excess they become quite tough. Also Doom Sirens (and VotLW if you want to) make them a nightmare for MEQ units. I´ve been quite sucessful with two 10 man squads in Dirge Rhinos. They are excellent objective takers/holders.

 

 

In my experimenting I also found that Mayhem Packs with Multi-meltas and thunder hammers work quite well, they deep strike and are a big enough threat that they cannot be ignored, if you're playing a fast combat army, they're just suddenly 3 more AV12 targets your opponent will have to deal with right away.

 

Agreed though I have yet to test it myself. Still a brute short.

[Tenebris]

Eh I would kill for a "Stormwolf" type assault transport. Flying, Assault Vehicle, 16 models capacity... the wet dreams of every chaos player.

 

 

Now as I see it we have a check-list to fill out for a CSM army:

 

- a Mastery Level 3 Psyker, for the warp charges and a chance at dispelling the enemy powers, Telepathy if unmarked,

- 2x Maulerfiend, vehicles are returning to the fore, we need dedicated vehicle killers and ours are fast and hard-hitting,

- a Helbrute formation, either the Mayhem Pack for the distraction role or the Helcult formation for the mass of Fearless cultists,

- a Heldrake, nerfed but still mandatory, 

- 4-5 Chaos Spawn, either as escort or as the recipients for Invisibility, this critters are a must,

- 2x Midfield squads, due to the Maelstrom missions we need things that capture and hold the objectives, Berzerkers or CSM in Rhinos,

- 2x Rearguard squads, again objectives are key, we need to defend our half of the border, squads of 5 CSM or the Cultists from Helcult,

- 2x2 Obliterators, still our main go to shooting weapon platform,

- Solid HQ, not hardhitting, bar the Juggylord and the CS Lord, tool up your HQ for Brand duty,

 

Said that use the remaining points for Chaos Daemons allies. Create a small warp charge battery unit and summon some help or use them to cast the ground spell. 

 

Not much diversity is allowed to us at this stage. We are a crippled book, with crippled units and crippled mechanics. So the best (and some would argue only) course of action is to make a generalist list with best in slot units. Have a look at the new Space Wolves and weep, the loyalists just got their premier assault army back which means that we will be on the receiving end of our own treatment. 

 

This is ofc. speaking from a competitive POV, fluff lists are awesome when we decide to play them, but they are awesome in fluff, not even close on the game table. So cross fingers and hope for narrative missions but in strict tournament gameplay we are a cripple wishing to contend with athletes. 

[Strazhakov]

 

Eh I would kill for a "Stormwolf" type assault transport. Flying, Assault Vehicle, 16 models capacity... the wet dreams of every chaos player.

 

Drop pods or cheaper/better Dredclaws would suffice though more assault vehicles are always nice.

 

 

Have a look at the new Space Wolves and weep, the loyalists just got their premier assault army back which means that we will be on the receiving end of our own treatment.

 

Not really afraid of SW or BA. Loyalists are one of our best matchups in my experience. Just don't get into challenges with their HQ/LOWs.

 

Anyway with the frequency with which GW is releasing new codexes these days our 7th edition book can't be that far off. I'd guess around summer 2015.

[Trevak Dal]

Eh I would kill for a "Stormwolf" type assault transport. Flying, Assault Vehicle, 16 models capacity... the wet dreams of every chaos player.

Now as I see it we have a check-list to fill out for a CSM army:

- a Mastery Level 3 Psyker, for the warp charges and a chance at dispelling the enemy powers, Telepathy if unmarked,

- 2x Maulerfiend, vehicles are returning to the fore, we need dedicated vehicle killers and ours are fast and hard-hitting,

- a Helbrute formation, either the Mayhem Pack for the distraction role or the Helcult formation for the mass of Fearless cultists,

- a Heldrake, nerfed but still mandatory,

- 4-5 Chaos Spawn, either as escort or as the recipients for Invisibility, this critters are a must,

- 2x Midfield squads, due to the Maelstrom missions we need things that capture and hold the objectives, Berzerkers or CSM in Rhinos,

- 2x Rearguard squads, again objectives are key, we need to defend our half of the border, squads of 5 CSM or the Cultists from Helcult,

- 2x2 Obliterators, still our main go to shooting weapon platform,

- Solid HQ, not hardhitting, bar the Juggylord and the CS Lord, tool up your HQ for Brand duty,

Said that use the remaining points for Chaos Daemons allies. Create a small warp charge battery unit and summon some help or use them to cast the ground spell.

Not much diversity is allowed to us at this stage. We are a crippled book, with crippled units and crippled mechanics. So the best (and some would argue only) course of action is to make a generalist list with best in slot units. Have a look at the new Space Wolves and weep, the loyalists just got their premier assault army back which means that we will be on the receiving end of our own treatment.

This is ofc. speaking from a competitive POV, fluff lists are awesome when we decide to play them, but they are awesome in fluff, not even close on the game table. So cross fingers and hope for narrative missions but in strict tournament gameplay we are a cripple wishing to contend with athletes.

My fluffy Tau army either wins big-or loses big, but there's not very many enemy units left on the table in either case. My Grey Knights are pretty good too-I usually feel like each game is a "fight" but they still struggle with T8 Monstrous creatures...but Rad Grenades say "Screw you buddy," along with Hammerhand and Force he's one failed wound from losing a 300+ point model, so I like their odds.

My world eaters...oh my World Eaters. Orks/Klingons/Warcraft Orcs in Power Armor.

They will charge valiantly. And they will be butchered valiantly. I'd never have thought the 30k fluff on the World Eaters to be so...literal and true on the tabletop. They die in droves and when they hit they don't have the teeth to get the job done

I play my World Eaters and every game, I feel a semblance of what George Pickett might have felt after the battle of Gettysburg in the US Civil war.

Regarding the rumored Space Wolf stuff...they're loyalists, they're naturally going to get the better rules-that's just how things are. You know what? :cuss em, they'll need all the help they can get against my unbound MSU Beserker spam. Something will get through.

[incinerator950]

 

 

Eh I would kill for a "Stormwolf" type assault transport. Flying, Assault Vehicle, 16 models capacity... the wet dreams of every chaos player.

Drop pods or cheaper/better Dredclaws would suffice though more assault vehicles are always nice.

Have a look at the new Space Wolves and weep, the loyalists just got their premier assault army back which means that we will be on the receiving end of our own treatment.

Not really afraid of SW or BA. Loyalists are one of our best matchups in my experience. Just don't get into challenges with their HQ/LOWs.

 

Anyway with the frequency with which GW is releasing new codexes these days our 7th edition book can't be that far off. I'd guess around summer 2015.

Despite badly needing one, I thought we weren't slated for a new one.

[Strazhakov]

 

Despite badly needing one, I thought we weren't slated for a new one.

 

Well eventually they will have updated everything else and then it's our turn. This year we will see Space Wolves, most likely Blood Angels and probably Dark Eldar. After that its anyones guess but I reckon Loyalists need one first and Necrons are still in 5th. But as I said eventually. If they keep up the pace we can realistically expect a 7th edition codex sometime within the next year.

[Emperors Immortals]

Im having success agaisnt a largely Marines meta using MoS Lord with MoS Chosen retinue in rhino. The core of my army is 2x 7 man CSM squads in rhino (melta with combi melta), at least one Mauler, Giant Spawn, melta and fist bikers and a spawn unit. Add Noise marines for melee support and fire base as required. I skip the obliterators completely (because i hate the background and models) and take a fire raptor gunship instead. Without forge World I just cant keep my interest in the game anymore - its just creative writing and modelling.

 

Im seriously hoping that GW will decide to let us buddy up with ImperialGuard it would make life so much easier. Wed still have no real assault delivery BUt we would have access to lots of good heavy fire and much better cultists, plus it would be graet for all of us forge a new narrative.

[incinerator950]

GW has a lot of work to do.

[Strazhakov]

Im seriously hoping that GW will decide to let us buddy up with ImperialGuard it would make life so much easier. Wed still have no real assault delivery BUt we would have access to lots of good heavy fire and much better cultists, plus it would be graet for all of us forge a new narrative.

 

If you seriously want to forge a narrative you can already do that. That's exactly what Unbound is for.

There are some people here and elsewhere that seem to think that Unbound follows the ally matrix when that is clearly not the case. Although I agree that if you argue over the "rules" of Unbound you probably shouldn't play it in the first place and stick to the accepted FOC.

 

If you just want to run an old school Lost and the Damned Imperial Guard regiment with Chaos marine support I doubt most people here would deny you a game. I cerntainly wouldn't.

[Sception]

Unbound certainly does follow the the allies matrix, that clearly is the case.

 

People are still, even a month (or two?) later, talking about the unbound rules like they're some strange lawless land where chaos daemon princes can wear dark eldar shadow fields and necron command barges can ride to battle in space marine land raiders and Khorne and Slaanesh get together on weekends for a rousing game of twister while Nurgle and Tzeentch reenact scenes from their favorite buddy cop movies.

 

It reminds me of when I first played the card game Munchkin, and I and my friends somehow got it in our heads that the card 'cheat' let you ignore any one rule when you used it.  Elves equipping dwarf only gear, running from un-run-fromable monsters, using 'gain a level' cards to level to 10 even though such normally wasn't allowed, etc.  It was a magical wild card that did anything and everything - until someone sat down and read it.

 

The cheat card does one specific thing in Munchkin.  It lets you equip an extra weapon.  It says what it does right there on the card, I don't know what my friends and I were smoking.  As with unbound.  It does one thing - frees you from force org charts.  That's all it does.  No other rules of the game are altered or ignored.  Ally rules still apply - so you can field your guard/chaos army, but they can't join each others' units, ride each others transports, benefit from each others' equipment and special rules, deploy within 12" of each other at the start of the game, or come within 6" of each other during the game without risk of going stupid.

 

Now, you can certainly house rule otherwise, and I would encourage you to do so - I love lost and the damned style armies, and home ruled battle bro level allies between guard and chaos marines are a good way to do that - arguably better even than FW's renegades & heretics army - and in terms of game balance it's no more abusive than the loyalist space marine / imperial guard battle bros that are perfectly legal to begin with.  But it is the house rules that would allow a closer alliance level between your chaos and your guard, not the unbound rules.  Going unbound has little to do with it - if your community is amenable to such house rules, I see no reason why they wouldn't allow such in regular battleforged armies, either.

[Deadman Wade]

Eh I would kill for a "Stormwolf" type assault transport. Flying, Assault Vehicle, 16 models capacity... the wet dreams of every chaos player.

We have Storm Eagle Assault Gunship. Cheaper, assault vehicle, 20 models capacity, looks better but with worse guns.

[Trevak Dal]

Malisteen I just pictured Nurgle burbling "I'm getting too old for this ,"

To be fair Wade, that's a Forgeworld thing-not a "in a codex" vehicle (Which is a thing for some people-some guys I play with won't do Forgeworld because it's "Pay to win" no matter the rules) that's a Dedicated Transport. I imagine the only thing keeping them from replacing Rhinos will be the fact it will probably be $70+ dollars, and cost as much as a landraider in points.

I've not heard of many blood angel-or Black templar players who take All Land Raiders with their armies. And I've yet to run into anybody who would run "only riptides" or "only heldrakes". Only Knights? Sure, that's 3 individually awesome models that can wreck face on the table, and cheaper to buy than 2000 points of Heldrakes or Riptides.

[Deadman Wade]

Yeah, some guys just can't stand when FW gives chaos good units :D

Still, a flyer without Skyshield pad isn't a good tranport IMO. It comes turn 2 at best, which means that passangers can assault turn 3 or later, it's vulnerable to interceptor fire, and when it crashes, anything inside without 3++ save gets killed. Also, raven/eagle/wolf are 200+ points in minimal configurations, and a need to switch to hover mode makes it quite difficult to use as an assault transport. Basically, you pay too many points if you use it as a gunship (SM flyers firepower isn't really cost-effective), and it's too clumsy and unreliable to be good transport. So I'd rather have Fire raptor in CSM codex than a flyer transport.

Overall, I'm more worried about Wolf flyer firepower than what units it can carry, it's not like CSM have any problems beating loyalists in close combat.

[Strazhakov]

Unbound certainly does follow the the allies matrix, that clearly is the case.

 

People are still, even a month (or two?) later, talking about the unbound rules like they're some strange lawless land where chaos daemon princes can wear dark eldar shadow fields and necron command barges can ride to battle in space marine land raiders and Khorne and Slaanesh get together on weekends for a rousing game of twister while Nurgle and Tzeentch reenact scenes from their favorite buddy cop movies.

 

They do not.

 

In the rulebook it clearly states in bold letters that Unbound just means that you can use all and any models in your collection.  There aren't anymore rules to it. That's it. It's not rocket science. The WD even gave an example of a Unbound army with Tyranids, Eldar and Orks or something crazy like that.

 

You just have to check with your opponent beforehand but that's common sense anyway.

 

I still don't understand why you are so adamant about it.

[incinerator950]

Yeah, some guys just can't stand when FW gives chaos good units :D

Still, a flyer without Skyshield pad isn't a good tranport IMO. It comes turn 2 at best, which means that passangers can assault turn 3 or later, it's vulnerable to interceptor fire, and when it crashes, anything inside without 3++ save gets killed. Also, raven/eagle/wolf are 200+ points in minimal configurations, and a need to switch to hover mode makes it quite difficult to use as an assault transport. Basically, you pay too many points if you use it as a gunship (SM flyers firepower isn't really cost-effective), and it's too clumsy and unreliable to be good transport. So I'd rather have Fire raptor in CSM codex than a flyer transport.

Overall, I'm more worried about Wolf flyer firepower than what units it can carry, it's not like CSM have any problems beating loyalists in close combat.

The problem is living long enough to get to combat, surviving said combat, and moving on to the next stint of combat.

[Teetengee]

No where does unbound undo the allies matrix (if you notice battleforged armies can still take come the apoc allies) as the allies matrix in no way limits what you may take in your army. All the allies matrix does is tell you how models from different factions interact with each other. I can take 2 troops and 1 hq from every codex and I am not using unbound. (Although it may be difficult to actually put them on the board). Unbound says take what you want. It doesn't say those units have to like each other.

[incinerator950]

Guys, get back to discussing on how to make are less sucky units make our sucky army un-suck.

[Emperors Immortals]

Yeah, unbound is certainly not an answer. Try deploying 150 guard anywhere on a table using 1250 pts of CSM while observing the "one eye open" and you'll understand. My close friends let me BB CSM with guard, but most of my games are pick up who don't allow house rules OR forge world. Refusing to play them has resulted in a net loss of all my fun.

 

The answer is fairly bland lists for comp level, but CSM still have a very fun mid level codex. Without forge world who have admittedly published some very powerful rules (none of which, unfortunately, have been for chaos) I cannot see a way to be more competitive then top of the friendly circuit. Forge World is the answer.

 

Malisteen, your not the first group to trip out over that card and certainly not the last lol

[Zhukov]

Played a game against our ETC Tyranids player and well... it wasn't pretty. Got nearly tabled. Thank god nearly, because I've never been tabled in all my years of 40k and want to keep it like that. Actually, I've never lost a game so hard as this one.

 

I played with a sub-optimal list, to test some things out and it gave some usefull insights as to what does not work. The list I played:

 

Daemon Prince; MoN, wings

Daemon Prince; MoN, wings

10 cultists

10 Cultists

10 Noise Marines; 2x blastmaster, Icon, meltabomb

Dreadnought; TL-lasscannon

Heldrake

5 Spawn; MoN

5 Spawn; MoN

Predator Annihilator

Maulerfiend; Tendrills

Maulerfiend; Tendrills

 

He played with 2 Hive Tyrants, 2 Exocrines, 2x 3 Warriors, 3 Carnifexes (1 unit), 2x3 Hive Guard, 10 Gaunts and a Venomthrope. Pretty much the list he's brining to the ETC as well.

 

Shooting of the Predator and Dreadnought was mostly underwhelming due to cover saves.

He shot down 1 Maulerfiend and the other one got 1 penetrating hit resulting in an immobilized result and thus practicly another dead Maulerfiend. This in his 1st turn (I got 1st turn).

Daemon Princes, due to being slow and purposefull, can't run, so I flew them turn 1 towards him instead, intending to vector strike or land turn 2. He got lucky with a perrils resulting in the Hive Tyrant I would have vector striked turn 2 getting a 3+ invulnerable save.

Now basicly in my turn 2 my Spawn units got charges off, but Spawn are a Tarpit. With Daemon Princes not being able to charge in turn 2 and both Maulerfiends being dead in turn 1.... I simply didn't have enough damage in my list.

 

The only unit actually doing a lot of damage the whole game were the Noise Marines. Cover ignoring blasts with a missile launcher profile is just very strong.

 

My thoughts (not just based on this game):

 

Daemon Princes are too expensive considering how impractical they function in 7th for this type of list. In the old 5th edition codex we had a Nurgle Prince with Wings for 150 points. With Toughness 6. I wish we had those still, way better than the current incarnation we have to deal with.

 

3 Maulers are pretty much always better than 2.

 

Noise Marines are our best troop choice. I'm planning on taking a Slaanesh Lord as HQ to save me the need of spending 100 points on useless cultists.

 

Dreadnoughts can work in that setup if you really want some TL-lasscannons in your army.

 

Heldrakes are still okay, honestly. I don't know yet though if I need/want them.

 

I'm working towards testing the next 2 lists in the next weeks:

 

Chaos Lord; Bike, MoS, Pfist, Claw, Deamonheart, Sigil, Horns 210
5 Noise Marines; blastmaster, rhino 160
5 Noise Marines; blastmaster, rhino 160
Helbrute; ML + TL las 135
Helbrute; ML + TL las 135
5 Spawn; MoN 180
5 Spawn; MoN 180
10 Bikes; MoS, Excess, Sword, meltabomb 285
Maulerfiend; Lasher Tendrills 135
Maulerfiend; Lasher Tendrills 135
Maulerfiend; Lasher Tendrills 135
Total: 1850

 

Chaos Lord; Bike, MoS, Pfist, Claw, Sigil 165
5 Noise Marines; blastmaster, rhino 160
5 Noise Marines; blastmaster, rhino 160
5 Noise Marines; blastmaster, rhino 160
5 Noise Marines; blastmaster, rhino 160
Helbrute; ML + TL las 135
Helbrute; ML + TL las 135
Helbrute; ML + TL las 135
Heldrake 170
Heldrake 170
3 Bikes 70
Obliterator; MoN 76
Obliterator; MoN 76
Obliterator; MoN 76
Total: 1848

[minionboy]

Eh I would kill for a "Stormwolf" type assault transport. Flying, Assault Vehicle, 16 models capacity... the wet dreams of every chaos player.

 

 

Now as I see it we have a check-list to fill out for a CSM army:

 

- a Mastery Level 3 Psyker, for the warp charges and a chance at dispelling the enemy powers, Telepathy if unmarked,

- 2x Maulerfiend, vehicles are returning to the fore, we need dedicated vehicle killers and ours are fast and hard-hitting,

- a Helbrute formation, either the Mayhem Pack for the distraction role or the Helcult formation for the mass of Fearless cultists,

- a Heldrake, nerfed but still mandatory, 

- 4-5 Chaos Spawn, either as escort or as the recipients for Invisibility, this critters are a must,

- 2x Midfield squads, due to the Maelstrom missions we need things that capture and hold the objectives, Berzerkers or CSM in Rhinos,

- 2x Rearguard squads, again objectives are key, we need to defend our half of the border, squads of 5 CSM or the Cultists from Helcult,

- 2x2 Obliterators, still our main go to shooting weapon platform,

- Solid HQ, not hardhitting, bar the Juggylord and the CS Lord, tool up your HQ for Brand duty,

 

Said that use the remaining points for Chaos Daemons allies. Create a small warp charge battery unit and summon some help or use them to cast the ground spell. 

 

Not much diversity is allowed to us at this stage. We are a crippled book, with crippled units and crippled mechanics. So the best (and some would argue only) course of action is to make a generalist list with best in slot units. Have a look at the new Space Wolves and weep, the loyalists just got their premier assault army back which means that we will be on the receiving end of our own treatment. 

 

This is ofc. speaking from a competitive POV, fluff lists are awesome when we decide to play them, but they are awesome in fluff, not even close on the game table. So cross fingers and hope for narrative missions but in strict tournament gameplay we are a cripple wishing to contend with athletes. 

 

I disagree a lot with that checklist.  In my experience the Heldrake is no longer necessary, there are other ways to do damage that work just fine.

 

Most of the things on that list are units that work, but you don't need all of them in the same list.  I run with 0 psykers and generally do just fine, similarly I don't run Oblits either.  Really, it comes down to figuring out what you want to do well, and excel at it.  If you're making a shooty army, the maulers won't be that good, similarly, if you're doing a combat army, the Oblits and Drake are far less helpful.  There is a lot of room for diversity for CSM this edition, certainly far more than before from a competitive perspective.

[Emperors Immortals]

Zhukov, I see there is no psyker in the lists above. Considering that quite a few of us are forgoing psykers altogether do you think daemon prince psyker support would be worthwhile?

 

I was tabled in turn 4 by a nid list similar to the one you faced with my MoS CC army, mostly due to losing a lot of NM and my lord in one storm eagle crash. Very bad luck i think.

 

Does an infiltrating NM squad with daemnheart lord on steed sound strong? I had good results with it but it relies heavily on a distracting rush list. Undecided if I'll replace the eagle for a fire raptor, though I know they are FW units and not codex units.

 

Very happy to see slaanesh love I think s/he's got a big future, how would you run a MoS prince? I'd like to try a CC one ivm happy with my psyker one so far.

[incinerator950]

I'm lamenting my decision to buy so many possessed bits.

 

Originally I wanted possessed for troops with a prophet Lord, but I'm opting for Noise marines instead.