Nusquam Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 My last two games Be'Lakor, a Juggerlord and spawn have solo'd my opponents army with some minor support from oblits. Invisible on a Juggerlord/spawn unit is quite good. Throw in an unmarked Sorcerer for biomancy buffs/more dice. Noise Marines can liquify armies outside of transports. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3762153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Played a game against our ETC Tyranids player and well... it wasn't pretty. Got nearly tabled. Thank god nearly, because I've never been tabled in all my years of 40k and want to keep it like that. Actually, I've never lost a game so hard as this one. I played with a sub-optimal list, to test some things out and it gave some usefull insights as to what does not work. The list I played: Daemon Prince; MoN, wings Daemon Prince; MoN, wings 10 cultists 10 Cultists 10 Noise Marines; 2x blastmaster, Icon, meltabomb Dreadnought; TL-lasscannon Heldrake 5 Spawn; MoN 5 Spawn; MoN Predator Annihilator Maulerfiend; Tendrills Maulerfiend; Tendrills He played with 2 Hive Tyrants, 2 Exocrines, 2x 3 Warriors, 3 Carnifexes (1 unit), 2x3 Hive Guard, 10 Gaunts and a Venomthrope. Pretty much the list he's brining to the ETC as well. Shooting of the Predator and Dreadnought was mostly underwhelming due to cover saves. He shot down 1 Maulerfiend and the other one got 1 penetrating hit resulting in an immobilized result and thus practicly another dead Maulerfiend. This in his 1st turn (I got 1st turn). Daemon Princes, due to being slow and purposefull, can't run, so I flew them turn 1 towards him instead, intending to vector strike or land turn 2. He got lucky with a perrils resulting in the Hive Tyrant I would have vector striked turn 2 getting a 3+ invulnerable save. Now basicly in my turn 2 my Spawn units got charges off, but Spawn are a Tarpit. With Daemon Princes not being able to charge in turn 2 and both Maulerfiends being dead in turn 1.... I simply didn't have enough damage in my list. The only unit actually doing a lot of damage the whole game were the Noise Marines. Cover ignoring blasts with a missile launcher profile is just very strong. My thoughts (not just based on this game): Daemon Princes are too expensive considering how impractical they function in 7th for this type of list. In the old 5th edition codex we had a Nurgle Prince with Wings for 150 points. With Toughness 6. I wish we had those still, way better than the current incarnation we have to deal with. 3 Maulers are pretty much always better than 2. Noise Marines are our best troop choice. I'm planning on taking a Slaanesh Lord as HQ to save me the need of spending 100 points on useless cultists. Dreadnoughts can work in that setup if you really want some TL-lasscannons in your army. Heldrakes are still okay, honestly. I don't know yet though if I need/want them. I'm working towards testing the next 2 lists in the next weeks: Chaos Lord; Bike, MoS, Pfist, Claw, Deamonheart, Sigil, Horns 210 5 Noise Marines; blastmaster, rhino 160 5 Noise Marines; blastmaster, rhino 160 Helbrute; ML + TL las 135 Helbrute; ML + TL las 135 5 Spawn; MoN 180 5 Spawn; MoN 180 10 Bikes; MoS, Excess, Sword, meltabomb 285 Maulerfiend; Lasher Tendrills 135 Maulerfiend; Lasher Tendrills 135 Maulerfiend; Lasher Tendrills 135 Total: 1850 Chaos Lord; Bike, MoS, Pfist, Claw, Sigil 165 5 Noise Marines; blastmaster, rhino 160 5 Noise Marines; blastmaster, rhino 160 5 Noise Marines; blastmaster, rhino 160 5 Noise Marines; blastmaster, rhino 160 Helbrute; ML + TL las 135 Helbrute; ML + TL las 135 Helbrute; ML + TL las 135 Heldrake 170 Heldrake 170 3 Bikes 70 Obliterator; MoN 76 Obliterator; MoN 76 Obliterator; MoN 76 Total: 1848 Not feeling the Helbrute love tbh Zhukov, they're just to easy to take out with Hive Guard etc, if you're sold on them what about the Mayhem Pack? Surely that would take a heap of pressure off your Maulers/Spawn/Bikes/Rhinos? If taking Slaanesh troops why not go with Doom Sirens, Blastmasters are good but it's a lot of points to pay for a few shots, I've had them whiff for turns but also win me the game, so it's a hard call. If you added Doom Sirens perhaps add the Burning Brand on your HQ too? Removes the need for Baledrakes (though 210 on a Lord is already far too expensive for me). Personally I'm finding Nids a tough match up, particularly in Maelstrom missions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3762358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I'm lamenting my decision to buy so many possessed bits. Originally I wanted possessed for troops with a prophet Lord, but I'm opting for Noise marines instead. If you want possessed troops man, you got to commit to it. Make use of the Fearless, and adjust for the fact that they're going to be hitting last if you go through cover (I can think of only 1 assault where I didn't charge through cover in sixth and seventh edition so far) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3762368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fulgrim Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Im thinking on adding some noisemarines in my army, but i have no clue on how to equip them. Should i do them extrem shooty or close combat, or both? They become really expensive fast. How do you guys equip your noisemarines? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3762377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 How do you guys equip your noisemarines? I equip my Blastmasters with 5 Noise Marines each. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3762400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted August 1, 2014 Author Share Posted August 1, 2014 Zhukov, I see there is no psyker in the lists above. Considering that quite a few of us are forgoing psykers altogether do you think daemon prince psyker support would be worthwhile? Does an infiltrating NM squad with daemnheart lord on steed sound strong? how would you run a MoS prince? I'd like to try a CC one ivm happy with my psyker one so far. Flying a Daemon Prince around the whole game hopefully summoning a unit each turn can be very wortwhile, yes. No that doesn't sound strong, apart from not being possible. It sounds like a dead Noise Marine squad to me ^^ I wouldn't unless I'm playing him with the Daemon codex. Less survivable than a Nurgle or Tzeentch, so I'm even less inclined to run a CC version here. Not feeling the Helbrute love tbh Zhukov, they're just to easy to take out with Hive Guard etc, if you're sold on them what about the Mayhem Pack? Surely that would take a heap of pressure off your Maulers/Spawn/Bikes/Rhinos? They're not because they're 48" range, no way Hive Guard are ever getting to shoot at them. No that wouldn't take pressure off because they start in reserve. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3762413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat33.1 Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Hi Zhukov thanks for starting a thought provoking and useful thread for CSM. I've yet to play my CSM in 7th as I've spent more time building and painting than gaming of late but this thread has got my interest back on CSM. Can you give some pointers to trimming your lists to 1750pts total please? Do I drop points from one area, for example HS or troops, or do you skim points from each section to keep the list balanced? Do I drop add on toys or bodies? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3764587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorenus Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Greetings from the Eye: Previously in this thread I mentioned how I've been on a serious winning streak with my CSM army lately. I also wrote up a description of 8 themes that weave throughout my army list design and tactical choices. Well, yesterday my winning streak came to a screeching halt, and I learned a valuable lesson in following my own advice! I was playing in a 1500-point battle vs. Space Wolves. 1500 points is a bit small for my personal preferences, I much prefer 2500+. Here was my 1500 point list: HQ1: Chaos Lord Shallag Jaganath (Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut of Khorne, Axe of Blind Fury, Burning Brand of Skalathrax, Sigil of Corruption, Gift of Mutation, Melta-Bombs, Veteran of the Long War) [220] Troops 1: Berzerkers x 10 (Power Fist, Melta Bombs, Icon of Wrath) [245] Troops 2: Berzerkers x 10 (Power Fist, Melta Boms, Icon of Wrath) [245] Fast Attack 1: Chaos Bikers x 6 (Mark of Khorne, Icon of Wrath, 2 Melta Guns) [193] Heavy Support 1: Chaos Land Raider (Dirge Caster) [235] Heavy Support 2: Chaos Land Raider (Dirge Caster) [235] Heavy Support 3: Maulerfiend [125] Total: 1497 Space Marine List: HQ1: The special snowflake character from the Sanctus Reach box set, I don't know his name HQ2: A Wolf Priest (Space Wolf version of a Chaplain it seems) Troops 1: Blood Claws x 14 Troops 2: Grey Hunters Elites 1: Murderfang in a Drop Pod Heavy Support: Land Raider Crusader Heavy Support: Long Fangs (???) He had at least 2 other squads that I'm not sure what they were, and at least one Lone Wolf with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, but I don't know the Space Wolves codex well enough to tell what those other units were. There may have been 3 or 4 other units, I'm going to have to learn the new codex better. Actually, I had three big problems with this game, only the first of which was that this was my first game ever against the shiny new Space Wolves codex. Problem # 2 was that we were playing the Maelstrom of War missions and I drew a crap hand for my starting tactical objectives, but there's nothing to be done about that and it's just the luck of the draw so whatever. PRoblem # 3, and really probably the biggest problem, was that I kind of forgot my own advice on several of the points I made before: I forgot to PLAY TO THE MISSION instead of playing to the opponent, and I made a couple of dumb tactical blunders. My first tactical blunder involved accepting a challenge from the Space Wolves' warlord (special snowflake character from the Sanctus Reach campaign) with my warlord, rather than accepting it with the bike squad's Champion like I would normally do. This was the first game in probably about 10 games that I used a Warlord who didn't have a fixed Warlord Trait (I've mostly been using Abaddon, Khârn, or Ahriman, as I mentioned before), so when I rolled and got a 6 on the C:CSM Warlord Traits table I was like, "Cool, I'll get to re-roll Chaos Boons." I should have just thought, "Well, that's fine if it ever comes up, but it probably won't come up." But instead I let that stupid Warlord Trait affect my tactical decision: I wanted to generate rolls on the table so I could improve my character, so I made the dumb decision to accept the challenge with him instead of my throwaway Champion. If I had sacrificed the Champion, then my Warlord could have used his 9 attacks against the squad of Blood Claws, most likely killing at least half of them before they got to their initiative step, which would have seriously blunted the strength of their attack: 14 Blood Claws (each with two close combat weapons, Rage, and Furious Charge) have 4 attacks each on the charge, for a total of 56 attacks. Instead I poured all 9 of my S6 AP2 attacks into the special snowflake character, who tanked all but one wound on his combination of a 4++ invulnerable save and Feel No Pain. That was really stupid of me, and he wiped out my bike squad that turn and put a couple of extra wounds on my Warlord that could have been avoided. Oh well. My second dumb tactical blunder was in charging his Murderfang Dreadnought with a squad of Berzerkers. I had already taken one Hull Point off the Murderfang with a well-placed Lascannon blast from my Chaos Land Raider, and my plan was to strip the last 2 HPs off with a combination of Krak Grenades and my Champion's Power Fist (hitting at S9 due to Furious Charge, with 4 attacks on the charge). I have used that tactic several times against Imperial/Space Marine Dreadnoughts and it has worked well lots of times. But MOST Space Marines Dreadnoughts only have 2 base attacks, and only rarely do you encounter a Dreadnought with TWO close combat weapons, meaning they usually have only 3 attacks and max out at 4 on the charge. And Berzerkers are WS 5 so they can usually cause the Dreadnought to miss more often than otherwise (Berzerkers normally only need 3s to hit and the Dreadnought would need 4s to hit back). So usually when I do this it ends up working really well: The Dreadnought on average kills one Berzerker per round and the Berzerkers usually take 1-2 HPs per round, sometimes 3 in a single round but usually it takes 2 rounds to kill it, which is perfect. But NOT the Murderfang: Apparently those guys have 4 attacks base, +1 for paired Murderclaws (which are S7 AP2, by the way), and it has Rage and Rampage, meaning it can have as many as TEN ATTACKS on the charge. Oh, and Murderfangs are WS5, too. AND Murderfans can issue/accept challenges, which meant my S9 Power Fist-wielding Champion died long before he could take a swing. Needless to say, this assault did not go as planned. Instead of losing only one or two Berzerkers per round of combat, I lost 5 per round. And I failed to put any more HPs on it, so it was a complete disaster. In the final analysis, I think the themes I discussed earlier still work, I just didn't follow through with them very well in my first game against Space Wolves. They had a lot of new shiny rules I wasn't familiar with, and I guess I let it distract me from the key of focusing on the mission. No excuse for losing though, right? I do think the army list is solid, and I do think the themes I discuss earlier are solid, though, and I have some evidence of that: Right after losing to the Space Wolves I played another 1500-point game with the exact same army list against a Dark Angels player. He had 1500 points worth of Deathwing Terminators, Ravenwing Bikers, Sammael, a Librarian, a Dark Shroud, a Land Speeder, and some other unit of super tough bikers with loads of plasma. And I absolutely crushed him. I annihilated his army, and completely wiped the army from the table before the third round was even halfway over. So perhaps I have begun a new winning streak? Time will tell. In the meantime, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! v/r --Vorenus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3772818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Tactical preparation goes a long way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3772820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I think you have a solid list, playing the mission would have been the smarter move. I've been using a similar list, but with maulers and a fire raptor and have been pretty successful. That wolves Dex is brutal though, I've spent the last few nights going over it and I think that were in for a bumpy ride lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3772939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorenus Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 I have a couple of games lined up for tomorrow, I'll let y'all know how my modular army and the themes I've discussed play out. I would also like to add: I own 5 different armies (ranging from 4000 points to over 10,000 points worth of models in any given army), and the one that I have the easiest time winning with is my Deathwatch Space Marines (i.e., regular ol' Codex Space Marines). But probably the most fun army to play out of the 5 that I own is my Chaos Space Marines. Even though my win/loss ratio is objectively better with my C:SM army, the C:CSM army is much more fun to play. And the models! There's no doubt at all that the C:CSM has access to many of the best looking models in the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3779055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Realy? Most of our models are realy old and the ones we got aren't realy used that much aside for fiends, and those aren't used in all lists. helldrakes were used in all in 6th, but if they were nice models is a thing of taste. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3779235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Realy? Most of our models are realy old and the ones we got aren't realy used that much aside for fiends, and those aren't used in all lists. helldrakes were used in all in 6th, but if they were nice models is a thing of taste. Don't forget all the ample opportunities to convert things! You can make a pretty unique-looking force with kitbashing...and the DV marines are gorgeous... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3779358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 Current list which, if I will make it, I plan on taking to the Dutch GT in 2 months: Nurgle Lord; Bike, Powerfist, Lightning Claw, Daemonheart, Slaughterers Horns, Sigil, Gift 220 Sorcerer; Bike, lvl 3, Sigil, Balestar of Manon, Gift 190 5 Plague Marines; Rhino 155 5 Plague Marines; Rhino 155 Helbrute; TL-lascannon 125 Helbrute; TL-lascannon 125 4 Spawn; MoN 144 4 Spawn; MoN 144 Heldrake; Baleflamer 170 Maulerfiend; Tendrills 135 Maulerfiend; Tendrills 135 2 Obliterators; MoN 152 Total: 1850 exactly. Not overly enthousiastic about it, but it will have to do. Only need to paint the 2 Maulerfiends en Helbrutes for it, which is nice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3779383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Hmm. I want to think of trying something else without that drake, but my mind is still shot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3779413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 That's easy enough: 5 Bikes; MoN, 2x melta, combimelta 170 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3779424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 No, I was thinking of adding to units you already had. Good luck with the tourney. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3779432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 Thanks, but it's a little bit early for that, it's in ~10 weeks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3779443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Oops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3779448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 For which match ups do you keep the single drake for, or is it just objective cleaner/support hunter ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3779489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 No particular matchup, just to make the list overall more balanced. Bit of anti-air and objective cleaner mostly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3779577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorrance Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Yea the drake is 'nurfed' but I find it makes players second guess or check themselves more that anything else. What ever helps me be an active player and make my opponent a passive player is golden to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3779953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kss Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 It´s sad to say but CSM needs to work with another codex as a second cad or allies to be more competitive. I am working on a list that uses a second cad with necrons, so far its been crushing my opponents. It gets a bit more tricky to succeed if they only allow allies though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3780283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted August 17, 2014 Author Share Posted August 17, 2014 I thought about Allies as well, but I don't like them, I can just as well play a different army then. Basicly when I start including Necrons which a Command Barge, Annihilation Barge etc, I realise taking Necrons Primary would simply be stronger. Orks, well Orks don't have much going for them, especially not without Waagh!. I used Daemon allies in 6th to make my army more competitive, which was fine, but in 7th that means Heralds of Tzeentch on Discs, which is a concept I loath. The whole psychic phase in this edition I actually hate, but whatever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3780512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Current list which, if I will make it, I plan on taking to the Dutch GT in 2 months: Nurgle Lord; Bike, Powerfist, Lightning Claw, Daemonheart, Slaughterers Horns, Sigil, Gift 220 Sorcerer; Bike, lvl 3, Sigil, Balestar of Manon, Gift 190 5 Plague Marines; Rhino 155 5 Plague Marines; Rhino 155 Helbrute; TL-lascannon 125 Helbrute; TL-lascannon 125 4 Spawn; MoN 144 4 Spawn; MoN 144 Heldrake; Baleflamer 170 Maulerfiend; Tendrills 135 Maulerfiend; Tendrills 135 2 Obliterators; MoN 152 Total: 1850 exactly. Not overly enthousiastic about it, but it will have to do. Only need to paint the 2 Maulerfiends en Helbrutes for it, which is nice. I miss Chaos tremendously, even though I haven't truly left them.. it's not like I play anything fotm anyway. However, I just wanna say I love what you're doing in this thread. I don't post too, too much here as the negativity can be... unreasonable after a while for me. But I think the shining light in 7th is Maelstrom (I know I've said it before.) Since we predominantly play Maelstrom I look forward to cranking up Chaos again, so this is great to see. I think a lot of armies got a shot in the arm with Maelstrom, and some of those static armies are a bit handicapped by it. Then there's the category of people playing 6th edition lists still and just not adapting. Keep your chin up and kick butt. I appreciate what you're doing here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293238-how-to-winning-with-csm-in-7th/page/8/#findComment-3781837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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