++ Gods of the Arena - A World Eaters Community ++

[KrautScientist]

@ YFNPsycho: Welcome to the slaughter, mate! Here's your badge:

 

 

@Interrogator-Chaplain-Ezra: Hmm, it seems the 12th company is already taken, at least in this forum. Doubly so, in fact, since I have recently found out that it used to be Macer Varren's company. Anyway, what this means is that you either have to choose a different company or fight it out with Cheexsta -- what better entry than that, right? In any case, welcome to the Hot Dust, here's your badge:

 

[Soldier of Dorn]

64. Company – The “Sinner’s Swords”, commanded by Centurion Zekariah Caine (YFNPsycho)

 

 

I sorry to complain, but that should be Cain, without a "e" at the end.

 

@KrautScientist Thanks for the badge!

Edited August 20, 2014 by YFNPsycho

[Augustus b'Raass]

 

 

64. Company – The “Sinner’s Swords”, commanded by Centurion Zekariah Caine (YFNPsycho)

 

 

I sorry to complain, but that should be Cain, without a "e" at the end.

 

@KrautScientist Thanks for the badge!

Someone's been playing V:tM too much...

[Flint13]

 

 

 

64. Company – The “Sinner’s Swords”, commanded by Centurion Zekariah Caine (YFNPsycho)

 

 

I sorry to complain, but that should be Cain, without a "e" at the end.

 

@KrautScientist Thanks for the badge!

Someone's been playing V:tM too much...

 

 

@ YFNpsycho - No worries! Fixed ^-^

 

@ Augustus - I may have a triple digit playtime on V:tM Bloodlines on my old laptop... I admit nothing.

[Slips]

 

 

 

 

64. Company – The “Sinner’s Swords”, commanded by Centurion Zekariah Caine (YFNPsycho)

 

 

I sorry to complain, but that should be Cain, without a "e" at the end.

 

@KrautScientist Thanks for the badge!

Someone's been playing V:tM too much...

 

 

@ YFNpsycho - No worries! Fixed ^-^

 

@ Augustus - I may have a triple digit playtime on V:tM Bloodlines on my old laptop... I admit nothing.

 

:O! That would explain the Avat- *vanishes behind puff of smoke*

[Flint13]

I may have sent Frozen upwards of 35 times.

 

... I admit nothing

[LongGone]

I gotta ask, because I feel like I'm going a little bit crazy...

 

Am I the only one who's disappointed with the way Angron has been depicted so far? Not so much in the BL fluff (minus the whole lift a titan over his head thing), but definitely in the artwork. 

 

I know our gene-sire is supposed to be, well, angry. But it seems like all the artwork is depicting his as bat crazy. We're talking mad as a hatter, on a level commensurate with the Night Haunter. There's the crazy red tattoo thingamabobies (are those ever described in the fluff?). Plus, the Butchers' Nails have now become metal dreadlocks coming out the back of his dome, which isn't how I've built them up in my mind to look. I also have to wonder what came first, the model (which I'm not a fan of really) or the artwork? What influenced what?

 

I mean, I know he's angry and confused. He's despondent over being taken away from his Eaters of Cities, and robbed of his chance at a glorious death, and he blames it all on the Big E. But you don't look at this guy...

 

 

... and think, "Gee, he'd make a great leader for this legion I got right over here."

 

What are your thoughts, my brothers and sisters, on daddy dearest? Does he live up to your expectations, both in the fluff and artwork, or has he left you feeling a little let down? I feel cheated our of a father and leader, and instead have been given this one trick anger pony. 

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2014 by LongGone

[incinerator950]

I may have sent Frozen upwards of 35 times.

 

... I admit nothing

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac116/incinerator950/Mobile%20Uploads/tmp_30766-When-I-am-all-in-and-ahead-against-two-opponents-and-it-looks-like-im-holding-but-i-keep-having-to-double-check-th_zps02e7bc8c.gif

[Augustus b'Raass]

 

@ Augustus - I may have a triple digit playtime on V:tM Bloodlines on my old laptop... I admit nothing.

You will if you go for the actual RP game. Pen&Paper or LARP - either will make house of cards look like a stroll in the park. ;)

[Flint13]

 

I gotta ask, because I feel like I'm going a little bit crazy...

 

Am I the only one who's disappointed with the way Angron has been depicted so far? Not so much in the BL fluff (minus the whole lift a titan over his head thing), but definitely in the artwork. 

 

I know our gene-sire is supposed to be, well, angry. But it seems like all the artwork is depicting his as bat crazy. We're talking mad as a hatter, on a level commensurate with the Night Haunter. There's the crazy red tattoo thingamabobies (are those ever described in the fluff?). Plus, the Butchers' Nails have now become metal dreadlocks coming out the back of his dome, which isn't how I've built them up in my mind to look. I also have to wonder what came first, the model (which I'm not a fan of really) or the artwork? What influenced what?

*SNIP*

 

 

I know exactly what you're getting at. It's annoying to have our genesire reduced to a one dimensional parody of a single emotion.

 

I'll admit, I tend to let A D-B's version of Angron be the basis for most of my ideas and politely turn down a few of the BL's other authors' interpretations. It depends entirely on how he's used in the work (whether an actual character or just an evil foil for whatever loyalist legion he's fighting) in the common vein of fictional villains.  I don't think he's ever really been given actual character development outside of Betrayer to be honest. It's very similar to Orks and Beastmen, World Eaters tend to be the things the actual characters kill off to present a bit of a challenge.

 

That isn't to say "he's not bad, he's just misunderstood," either. Angron is psychologically and emotionally flawed, just like (arguably) every primarch. He lets those emotions show through more so than many of the others, as the nails are eroding any sense of restraint he once had. To me, the biggest problem is that we don't really have a good idea of what "pre-nails" Angron was like. So far as I'm aware, the fluff for him basically starts when he was snapped up by the Emperor from the little gladiator planet he landed on. Sure we know he landed there, was captured by the ruling highborn and implanted with the Nails, but we've never seen any of that, just heard about it. We don't get to see what he was like before, or his gradual descent into becoming more and more violent, or his planning and escape from the pits to lead a revolt. Even then, he must have retained some of the natural leadership and charisma of a primarch, to lead an entire revolt that manages to through the whole planet into an uproar. 

 

In Betrayer we're told how legionaries no longer feel that natural emotional boost that is inherent to the very existence and proximity of a primarch, that he is broken. So there is a good clue of that inherent degradation of what Angron is as a primarch. 

 

Since we don't have that comparison, other than things we really have to reach for and assume, his character development is going to be very stunted, since we're essentially only seeing half of it. 

[KrautScientist]

Ah, dang, Flint ninja'ed me

 

 

I gotta ask, because I feel like I'm going a little bit crazy...

 

Am I the only one who's disappointed with the way Angron has been depicted so far? Not so much in the BL fluff (minus the whole lift a titan over his head thing), but definitely in the artwork. 

 

I know our gene-sire is supposed to be, well, angry. But it seems like all the artwork is depicting his as bat crazy. We're talking mad as a hatter, on a level commensurate with the Night Haunter. There's the crazy red tattoo thingamabobies (are those ever described in the fluff?). Plus, the Butchers' Nails have now become metal dreadlocks coming out the back of his dome, which isn't how I've built them up in my mind to look. I also have to wonder what came first, the model (which I'm not a fan of really) or the artwork? What influenced what?

 

I mean, I know he's angry and confused. He's despondent over being taken away from his Eaters of Cities, and robbed of his chance at a glorious death, and he blames it all on the Big E. But you don't look at this guy...

 

 

 

... and think, "Gee, he'd make a great leader for this legion I got right over here."

 

What are your thoughts, my brothers and sisters, on daddy dearest? Does he live up to your expectations, both in the fluff and artwork, or has he left you feeling a little let down? I feel cheated our of a father and leader, and instead have been given this one trick anger pony. 

 

 

 

 

I think the first thing to point out is that trying to reconcile all the different depictions of a 30k/40k character across several sources will always end up being a bit of a stretch, both when it comes to artwork and narrative -- especially the former, though: There are many, many instances where the design of characters varies wildly between different pieces of art (Custodes armour is a favourite example of mine, or consider the fact that Ferrus Manus, as depicted in his battle against Fulgrim, looks absolutely NOTHING like his model).

 

That said, I think Angron's depiction is actually one of the rare instances of a fairly coherent character across several sources -- which of course may be mostly due to the fact that there has not been all that much fluff about him to begin with. But all the various depictions of him can be conciled more or less without a hitch if you choose to see them as various stages during his deterioration. Here's my interpretation, regarding both his appearance in the artwork and in what little precious fluff we get about him:

 

First, the art:

 

In "After De'shea", Angron still seems to be reasonably normal looking -- even somewhat attractive and imposing, as a matter of fact. He also still has (red) hair, and the nails are not as prominent. Personally, I would interpret the dreadlocks of his later appearance to be some kind of interface between his actual implants and the systems of his armour.

 

The classic Wayne England art you posted above could represent Angron a relatively short time after his reunion with the XIIth legion: He already has the iconic armour, but he still seems to be relatively sane and "undamaged" (insofar as that word could ever be applied to him).

 

He is looking fairly similar on the cover of The Primarchs, although his pose suggests the rather short attention span we have come to know from our Primarch Notably, this is quite a ways into the Great Crusade, after the Battle of Ullanor, so his condition would have worsened considerably by then.

 

Finally, in "Betrayer", Amgron is constantly described as resembling nothing so much as a "Broken Angel", every inch of his body covered in scar tissue and his features nicked and damaged by all the punishment he has taken over the years. His mouth is called "lipless" several times, although whether or not this represents an actual lack of lips or is just used to convey a sense of his drawn, tense features is never elaborated upon. In any case, I took this description to mean that Angron is really quite a bit worse for wear by this point. This wonderfully characterful piece of art by slaine69 would probably be a pretty good representation of Angron at that point.

 

In fact, the same artist has also produced an even more gruesome Angron design: While this might seem exaggerated and horrible at first glance, I couldn't shake the feeling that this resembles my picture of Angron during the entire Nuceria segment of Betrayer rather closely...

 

slaine69 also made this piece, probably one of my favourite depictions of Angron, to be honest. In any case, you should definitely check out his DeviantArt page!

 

 

As for the development of Angron's design, back when the HH model was released, there was an article in WD where Simon Egan stated that his main inspirations had been both the Wayne England illustration above as well as this piece by John Blanche -- probably the earliest "canonical" look at Angron. You'll notice that both the red warpaint and the dradlocks seem to have originated within that piece. If anything, the model for Angron is a surprisingly close representation of JB's art -- definitely more so than several of the other Primarch models so far! Aaron Dembski-Bowden also wrote a rather interesting post about Angron's design here.

 

 

 

Finally, when it comes to Angron's character, I feel that "After De'shea" and "Betrayer" have really done a great job at fleshing out his character: You probably won't come away from the stories actually liking him, but it's far easier now to understand his backstory and, well, his anger. He also has surprising moments of insight and utter frankness, when discussing the Emperor's hypocrisy with Russ or when calling out Guilliman on his tenets of "Courage" and "Honour". Even so, he is also a terrible bastard. A phrase from "Red Dragon comes to mind: "As a child, my heart goes out to him. As an adult, he's irredeemable."

 

So yeah, my two cents

Edited August 20, 2014 by KrautScientist

[Slave to Darkness]

 

from the picture url in krauts post

Right click and open image in a new tab.

Copy the URL from the address bar.

Paste that in the image tool for your sig but make sure it doesn't have the http:// at the start or it will fail

 

nope, still not working

[KrautScientist]

 

 

from the picture url in krauts post

Right click and open image in a new tab.

Copy the URL from the address bar.

Paste that in the image tool for your sig but make sure it doesn't have the http:// at the start or it will fail

 

nope, still not working

 

 

Hmm, let's see: I can put it in my post like this:

 

http://eternalhunt.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/we_badge_slavetodarkness.png

 

So you should be able to put it into your signature just the same -- maybe you have reached your 800px width max with the banners already in your signature? That might be an explanation...

[incinerator950]

I've been dissapointed with a lot of what BL has to offer. So generally I read second hand from other sources, but overall the disconnection between rulebooks and novels has gotten very :cussing annoying. The Black Legion series might be what makes me finally start deliberately make rogue elements to spite certain directions, or just jump on to the loyalist band wagon.

 

Or quit altogether, GW might make me do that regardless.

[Relict]

To me, our father is a tragic figure - whatever great destiny he had been created to fulfill was ruined by circumstances beyond his control before he even had a chance to do anything about it. 

 

At the same time, he is not one-dimensional. Therefore, my favorite depiction of him is this one:

 

http://s29.postimg.org/kyh42ebmv/Angron_Mourning.jpg

 

Here, we do not see the brutal Primarch who slew billions in the name of the Great Crusade, the uncaring father who unintentionally led his sons to ruin and damnation, or the future Daemon Prince of Khorne who would plague the Imperium for ten thousand years. 

 

No.

 

Here is a man mourning the bones of the only family he had ever known. Here, the Nails are not, for once, pulsing in the back of his skull and forcing him to kill. Even the ravages of a hundred years of exhausting war fade. All that remains, at this moment in time, is a broken man whose fate was sealed the moment he landed on damned Nuceria. 

 

As Betrayer mentions, the Nails added nothing to the mind. Instead, they stole from it. The characterization of Angron throughout the book - the bleeding from facial orifices, the short attention span, the constant twitching tics - all are symptoms of advanced degeneration brought on by the Nails. The combined exhaustion is also slowly killing Angron - to the point that Lorgar transformed him into an immortal Daemon Prince in order to save him from dying. We also get a glimpse of what Angron could have been, for during the journey to Nuceria (also counts as the final days of Angron as a man), he did things such as eating and drinking with his sons, watching their pit fights, and pausing for long conversations with the ship's archivists when the Nails allowed him the respite to do so. 

 

In short, Angron is a mad dog - pitiful, yes, but still need to be put down with extreme prejudice. 

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

 

@Interrogator-Chaplain-Ezra: Hmm, it seems the 12th company is already taken, at least in this forum. Doubly so, in fact, since I have recently found out that it used to be Macer Varren's company. Anyway, what this means is that you either have to choose a different company or fight it out with Cheexsta -- what better entry than that, right? In any case, welcome to the Hot Dust, here's your badge:

 

Right. The Crimson Head-takers then. Or is that taken too? 

 

EDIT: Can't seem to get this whole signature thing to work. Off to google I go.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra

[LongGone]

 

Finally, when it comes to Angron's character, I feel that "After De'shea" and "Betrayer" have really done a great job at fleshing out his character: You probably won't come away from the stories actually liking him, but it's far easier now to understand his backstory and, well, his anger. He also has surprising moments of insight and utter frankness, when discussing the Emperor's hypocrisy with Russ or when calling out Guilliman on his tenets of "Courage" and "Honour". Even so, he is also a terrible bastard. A phrase from "Red Dragon comes to mind: "As a child, my heart goes out to him. As an adult, he's irredeemable."

 

 

Oh, don't get me wrong. Minus the aforementioned overhead squat with a titan in the beginning of "Betrayer", I have really enjoyed Black Library's current interpretation of Angron. Those two pieces of fluff in general, are among my favorite in the HH series. I guess maybe its the only substantial interpretation we've gotten, beyond whatever small blurbs have been in rulebooks/codexes. Like you and the others have said, he's been taken from this one dimensional foil, and been given a backstory that goes a long way in explaining that he's not just angry for anger's sake. It's at least to a point where I have a better understanding of why he turned. I don't necessarily like him as a character, but I understand what's going on *makes wavy hand motion* all up in there. 

 

My biggest issue was his depiction in various art pieces. Thank you though for that little Angron in the Arts primer. It definitely helps to have a understanding of the history of his character design. This whole thing was brought up as I surfed the interwebz looking for inspirational pieces for the creation of my World Eaters force, both hobby photos and traditional artwork. I can find tons of stuff on the War Hounds/World Eaters prior to the descent in to madness. It seemed like all I could find of Angron were pieces like this from Studio Colrouphobia, where his faces seems a little gaunt, and the level of bat crazy coming across the screen is pretty high. I understand that a lot of it depends on where in his progression to full on demon-hood that art is supposed to represent, but it seemed like all that *was* represented was demon-lite Angron. That's why my favorite depiction so far as been the one Relict posted. He's still an imposing figure, and you get a really good idea of the strength he possess, but he's not blood blood err'where.

 

I kept seeing image after image of a person that didn't jive with what I built in my head, and I wanted to know I wasn't the only one who felt a little less...connected to what we were being shown. If anything, I'm now determined to get my hands on "The Butcher's Nails." I need to see, or hear, I guess, what the fuss is all about. 

[Flint13]

We will have to disagree there.

 

I can overhead squat 65lbs.

 

Angron can overhead squat (*checking Lexicanum*) 410 tonnes. Which may or may not be like tons. 

 

But still *damn* impressive. Literally my favorite part of the book. 

[Knight of the Raven]

http://s29.postimg.org/kyh42ebmv/Angron_Mourning.jpg

 

 

This is now my desktop wallpaper.

 

I want to see what Angron could have been so much. As long as he keeps the kickass World Eaters color scheme.

 

Or just have the Emperor mercy kill him upon finding him. Either works for me.

[Yogi]

Doesn't the copy pasted minion marine bother you? Or the lazy way the sky has been done?

[Knight of the Raven]

No.

[Slips]

Not at all. Because they aren't the main focus of the piece, it can be forgiven and doesn't detract (imo) from it.

[Augustus b'Raass]

No! Papa looks ser tragic here. 

Edited August 21, 2014 by Augustus b'Raass

[LongGone]

We will have to disagree there.

 

I can overhead squat 65lbs.

 

Angron can overhead squat (*checking Lexicanum*) 410 tonnes. Which may or may not be like tons. 

 

But still *damn* impressive. Literally my favorite part of the book. 

 

Impressive? No doubt. The OHS is a movement I have yet to master. But as a certain Sith Lord would surely say - "The plot armour is strong with this one."

 

My friend Suspension O. Disbelief didn't just take a hit, he got straight up brained by a Louisville Slugger. But the vast differences between what has threatened the life of the various primarchs is a discussion for another place.  

 

And Yogi, I'm going to have to agree with Knight of the Raven and Slipstreams. Angron quite literally 'fills the frame,' and the treatment of the two copy/paste Astartes is such that I didn't even realize they were identical until you brought it up. Its honestly a nice counterpoint to this piece of art, which I assume is by the same artist. Of all the 'angry Angron' art out there, I like it because its clear that he's enraged and about to mess someone up, but he hasn't crossed my admittedly very subjective Line of Craziness.  

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

I may have sent Frozen upwards of 35 times.

 

... I admit nothing

Let it go.