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Flint13

By Flint13
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Panzer Veteran

Panzer

Posted
Posted

So I have pulled out my World Eaters and KDK a few times and quite honestly have been shot off the table and I want to see how much of a difference this makes, but I need to ask for some clarity:

 

1. Is it legit for me to use Bloodletters ( which do not have World Eaters keyword) as troops in my World Eaters army? If so does this affect ObSec for me?

 

2. If the answer to 1 is 'no' then should I summon or create a detachment with these Daemons?

 

The answer to 1 is important to me because I also have lots of Bloodcrushers, hounds, cannons and Bloodthirsters.

 

( on that note I can't wait till they do Daemons because I feel like a lot of those Khorne Daemons were cautiously and ridiculously over pointed... just my experience thus far)

 

3. Is it legit for me to run my Juggerlord in a World Eater army? I would love to have my Khorne axe back with D6 bonus attacks. But I guess Axe o' Fury will do.

 

4. If I had my Crimson Slaughter running alongside in a detachment, would thus work for including my Sorc? Or would it be better to run pure Renegades and just use 'Elite' Zerkers?

 

Side note; I really wish Talisman was an aura which would be more representative of how it worked in 7th. Also I Really. Love the Khorne Psychic denial on a 4+. I know we're early in 8 th but I already feel the Psychic phase is getting a little too potent. Also armies like GK have such string counters built in to 'daemon' keyword, its good to have a 4+ denial at least once per turn ( this is why I use hounds too). I have a feeling the way my meta is looking, I'll be burning a lot of CP's on the denial phases!

1. It's perfectly fine as long as it's in a different detachment than your World Eaters. They won't have ObSec or take ObSec from your WE detachment troops.

2. Summoning is situational but legit depending on your list and what you're aiming for with it.

3. The consence tends to be more and more towards 'no' but we won't know for sure without an official FAQ since official non-FAQ statements from GW said we can use them in the first place. Same for Troop Berzerker.

4. Sure it would work. The difference between a WE detachment and a Renegade detachment is that the WE Berzerker pack more punch but the Renegade Berzerker are about 3.5" faster the turn they charge. Oh and that Renegades don't have access to the WE artefacts, Warlord Traits and Stratagems and no Khârn of course. For elite/troop Berzerker read above.

Hell I dare say Alpha Legion make better use of elite choice Berzerker even due Infiltrate and -1 to-hit modifier at >12" range. Just depends on how much you are willing to bend your armys fluff.

Berzerker88 Battle-Brother

Berzerker88

Posted
Posted (edited)

Am I the only one who finds the Exalted Champion as the ultimate character hunter? With rerolls to hit and wound, the extra attacks from legion and warlord trait, and a power fist this guy is going to be making 6 rerollable (to hit and wound!) S8 Ap-3 attacks and possibly more with Fury of Khorne and the right boons!

 

The Khornate one is thus the best of the cult legiond and I'd dare to day, only short of Khârn and Abby in pure skull-hunting potential!

 

EDIT: For a fraction of their cost too!

Edited by Berzerker88
Panzer Veteran

Panzer

Posted
Posted

 

Not mobile enough by far.

Talisman.

 

Gives you an average 3.5" more range the turn you charge (okay slightly more due the re-roll) but otherwise it's not making you any more mobile than other characters. I'm talking about things like Bikes and Jump Packs (which would also let you jump over annoying screening units).

Berzerker88 Battle-Brother

Berzerker88

Posted
Posted

 

 

 

Not mobile enough by far.

Talisman.

Gives you an average 3.5" more range the turn you charge (okay slightly more due the re-roll) but otherwise it's not making you any more mobile than other characters. I'm talking about things like Bikes and Jump Packs (which would also let you jump over annoying screening units).
And neither of those get re-rolls or transports :D
Panzer Veteran

Panzer

Posted
Posted

Not caring about the re-rolls really. Especially not with the option to re-roll one of them by using CP.

The transport is an argument tho I'd still take a Jump Pack for a character hunter over a Rhino if possible 10 out of 10 times.

 

Again, it's a good dueling character but ULTIMATE character hunter? Nah not even close.

Bloody Legionnaire Venerable Brother

Bloody Legionnaire

Posted
Posted

Honestly if we're talking about summoning Bloodletters or even something like Bloodcrushers.. the rolls are not that big of a deal. With 3D6 rolls and the power level being so low for Bloodletters summoning those whenever you need is almost a given. The fact that any chaos character can summon mean you have a good chance of getting whatever you want on the board. Yes I know it's a little hard for World Eaters because all of our units should be moving forward towards the enemy, but you get what I'm saying. 

Commissar K. Veteran

Commissar K.

Posted
Posted

So I have pulled out my World Eaters and KDK a few times and quite honestly have been shot off the table and I want to see how much of a difference this makes, but I need to ask for some clarity:

 

1. Is it legit for me to use Bloodletters ( which do not have World Eaters keyword) as troops in my World Eaters army? If so does this affect ObSec for me?

 

2. If the answer to 1 is 'no' then should I summon or create a detachment with these Daemons?

 

The answer to 1 is important to me because I also have lots of Bloodcrushers, hounds, cannons and Bloodthirsters.

 

( on that note I can't wait till they do Daemons because I feel like a lot of those Khorne Daemons were cautiously and ridiculously over pointed... just my experience thus far)

 

3. Is it legit for me to run my Juggerlord in a World Eater army? I would love to have my Khorne axe back with D6 bonus attacks. But I guess Axe o' Fury will do.

 

4. If I had my Crimson Slaughter running alongside in a detachment, would thus work for including my Sorc? Or would it be better to run pure Renegades and just use 'Elite' Zerkers?

 

Side note; I really wish Talisman was an aura which would be more representative of how it worked in 7th. Also I Really. Love the Khorne Psychic denial on a 4+. I know we're early in 8 th but I already feel the Psychic phase is getting a little too potent. Also armies like GK have such string counters built in to 'daemon' keyword, its good to have a 4+ denial at least once per turn ( this is why I use hounds too). I have a feeling the way my meta is looking, I'll be burning a lot of CP's on the denial phases!

Being shot of the table still can be a real issue for World Eater/Khorne armies who are filled with narrative design. Better put, armies without much ranged weapon support, Sorcerers etc. However if your working in an area where people generally play more from a narrative perspective as competitive you should still be good.

 

Most have awnsered your questions, I thought I'd add some addition mentioning on why it actually works that way.

1. You can certainly add any ChaosTroops to your World Eaters Army. However the side effect of Detachments where not all units in that Detachment share the same Legion Keyword cannot benifit from a specific Legion Trait advantage. As per Codex Chaos Space Marines page 156.

However Despoilers of the Galaxy works a little different. That ability does not stop the moment you would mix things up in a Detachment. If you don't mix anything up you obviously also gain the Despoilers of the Galaxy ability aswell, as per C: CSM page 155.

 

It's important to see that having a Battle-Forged army is not perse the same as having an army sharing all the same Keywords. For all Battle-Forged army rules be sure to check 8th ed Rulesbook page 240.

 

2. As mentioned however the Legion Trait rule is very specific in when you gain acces to it. So even if you want to use Daemons as Reinforcements they should be part of another Detachment to make sure the "Legion Detachment" can keep acces to its Legion Traits.

 

3. Yes it is. You can use the Index for many rules that are not covered in the Codex. What we don't know yet is if the Army Rules presented in Index: Chaos on page 45 are still viable to use. I personaly assume so, many assume differently. The case I make for this is that the Codex does not give any new alternative Army Rules, in all aspects it's still an add on/update to the Index.

 

4. Running a Sorcerer is a great plan, what is better entirely depends on the list. What I do certainly agree with is that the Renegades Legion Trait is very good. The downside to it is that you then have some more limited choices. For example complete non-World Eaters armies do not have acces to:

- Scorn of Sorcery

- Brass Collar of Bhorgaster

- But perhaps most importantly you still have acces to Khârn but not so much his Aura

Splitting things up in multiple Detachments still isn't incredible difficult to do however. So have fun!

 

The Talisman is most certainly fantastic because indeed Psycic powers are incredible. As above keep in mind that Scorn of Sorcery indeed is great aswell but you do need to have a World Eater unit to make use of it. It's not tied to the Khorne Keyword.

 

 

Am I the only one who finds the Exalted Champion as the ultimate character hunter? With rerolls to hit and wound, the extra attacks from legion and warlord trait, and a power fist this guy is going to be making 6 rerollable (to hit and wound!) S8 Ap-3 attacks and possibly more with Fury of Khorne and the right boons!

 

The Khornate one is thus the best of the cult legiond and I'd dare to day, only short of Khârn and Abby in pure skull-hunting potential!

 

EDIT: For a fraction of their cost too!

I think it's a really nice guy, but then I also think that two Daemon Princes of Khorne with Talisman of Burning Blood (thanks to Gift of Chaos) is also bound to turn some heads ;) Especially if one of those Daemon Princes has some additional benifical Warlord Trait aswell.

 

Where I completely agree with you is that we're now capable of presenting cats that arn't bad :P 

 

Honestly if we're talking about summoning Bloodletters or even something like Bloodcrushers.. the rolls are not that big of a deal. With 3D6 rolls and the power level being so low for Bloodletters summoning those whenever you need is almost a given. The fact that any chaos character can summon mean you have a good chance of getting whatever you want on the board. Yes I know it's a little hard for World Eaters because all of our units should be moving forward towards the enemy, but you get what I'm saying. 

Absolutely true, the rolls arn't an issue. Giving up movement typically is however. I personally really like Bloodletters for their cost, however the practicle implication still makes it difficult to be used, especially since the sweet Legion Traits basically preventing the mix up.

 

For the most part I don't mind the very unlikely appearance of Daemons in my army, however I do mind that Word Bearers have no way to circumvent this, which from a narrative standpoint makes little sence.

Sagentus Veteran

Sagentus

Posted
Posted

TBH I must admit there is a lot more options now for us, instead of the standard juggerlord with axe of blind fury.... its good to have plenty of good options

oh btw 2 more termi's added to the blood gods ranks ;)

gallery_95896_12723_534035.jpg

Need to base them once i get hold of some basing materials

Commissar K. Veteran

Commissar K.

Posted
Posted

Absolutely, the options are really there. The one thing Im still dying to know is if our initial Index Army Rules still apply. If they do we'll get stronger out of this Codex. If not, well, as mentioned on the same Facebook page it would be ground zero for my army plans again. So I'll eagerly await.

Love the Terminators! Also would like to note that this is comming up:
99129999012_CitadelSkulls08.jpg

Which is just fantastic for any Khorne fan, both for Age of Sigmar and Warhammer 40.000. Some of these with some rocks or sand would make the perfect base for World Eater Terminators :D

Cheers,

Guiltysparc Venerable Brother

Guiltysparc

Posted
Posted

I know this doesn't necessarily mean anything, but Battlescribe now only has Berzerkers as Elites , I know this doesn't necessarily mean much but it does potentially completely screw up my WEs army.

 

They aren't troops anymore, but you can use the vanguard detachment instead.

Berzerker88 Battle-Brother

Berzerker88

Posted
Posted

Not caring about the re-rolls really. Especially not with the option to re-roll one of them by using CP.

The transport is an argument tho I'd still take a Jump Pack for a character hunter over a Rhino if possible 10 out of 10 times.

 

Again, it's a good dueling character but ULTIMATE character hunter? Nah not even close.

That's just you then, I'd rather take a transport and keep the reroll aura benefits. Most people will care about re-rolling to wound :P :P

 

And yes, the Ultimate. He'll eat the biker and jump pack lords for breakfast.

Berzerker88 Battle-Brother

Berzerker88

Posted
Posted

 

 

I know this doesn't necessarily mean anything, but Battlescribe now only has Berzerkers as Elites , I know this doesn't necessarily mean much but it does potentially completely screw up my WEs army.

They aren't troops anymore, but you can use the vanguard detachment instead.

Actually you may still take them as troops, remember the Index still gives you that ability in "World Eaters Army rules" which doesn't even exist in the Codex) and according to GW you can still use Index rules if they aren't modified in the dex.
Commissar K. Veteran

Commissar K.

Posted
Posted (edited)

I know this doesn't necessarily mean anything, but Battlescribe now only has Berzerkers as Elites , I know this doesn't necessarily mean much but it does potentially completely screw up my WEs army.

Depends, have they removed the other World Eater army rules? Because that's the real question here that the Codex doesn't confirm.

 

 

I know this doesn't necessarily mean anything, but Battlescribe now only has Berzerkers as Elites , I know this doesn't necessarily mean much but it does potentially completely screw up my WEs army.

 

They aren't troops anymore, but you can use the vanguard detachment instead.

 

We know for sure they are Elites in the Codex. However the Index entry, including all other World Eater Army Rules, have not yet been confirmed to be illigal/invalidated.

 

The whole description in regards to what counts as Chaos Space Marines, how Legion works for Detachments etc. arn't a confirmed Army Rule.

So if they arn't Troops, all we are left with is to assume that neither Forces of the World Eaters, Servants of Khorne or Berzerker Horde apply. As these are all part of the World Eater Army Rules.

 

I personally doubt Games Workshop will invalidate the use of World Eater Army Rules. Because the Codex doesn't specifically do that. 

Edited by Commissar K.
Guiltysparc Venerable Brother

Guiltysparc

Posted
Posted

I think that's a bit of a misstep on GW's part.  For units that aren't in the codex, fine, but the codex should supersede the index for those that are.  If you give your troop slot 'zerker champ a power fist, are you paying 20 points for it or only 12 a la the codex?

Panzer Veteran

Panzer

Posted
Posted

 

Not caring about the re-rolls really. Especially not with the option to re-roll one of them by using CP.

The transport is an argument tho I'd still take a Jump Pack for a character hunter over a Rhino if possible 10 out of 10 times.

 

Again, it's a good dueling character but ULTIMATE character hunter? Nah not even close.

That's just you then, I'd rather take a transport and keep the reroll aura benefits. Most people will care about re-rolling to wound :tongue.::tongue.:

 

And yes, the Ultimate. He'll eat the biker and jump pack lords for breakfast.

 

I obviously wasn't talking about raw damage output when I was talking about mobility....I thought that much was obvious lol

What good is raw damage output when you can't reach your target.

Bloody Legionnaire Venerable Brother

Bloody Legionnaire

Posted
Posted

I think that's a bit of a misstep on GW's part.  For units that aren't in the codex, fine, but the codex should supersede the index for those that are.  If you give your troop slot 'zerker champ a power fist, are you paying 20 points for it or only 12 a la the codex?

Per GW guidance.. for units (and rules) not available in the Codex.. utilize the Index for the dataslate/rules and Codex for point cost. 

Panzer Veteran

Panzer

Posted
Posted

Honestly, unless it's written in a FAQ us using the Index stuff is not completely legal anyway. I know they told us so a few times but they now also told us a few times to use things as they are in the Codex so we are back to zero and should use the Codex stuff since that's the latest version of the rules.

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