++ Gods of the Arena - A World Eaters Community ++

[Commissar K.]

I think that's a bit of a misstep on GW's part.  For units that aren't in the codex, fine, but the codex should supersede the index for those that are.  If you give your troop slot 'zerker champ a power fist, are you paying 20 points for it or only 12 a la the codex?

It could be, the other thing is it forces the competative to have it all. From a sales reason its great. However what we do know is that Datasheets and Wargear point lists supercede the older for sure, though again Index choices in itself are not invalidated, as per GWs own article on the subject. So if your giving anyone a Power Fist now its 12 points. What we do not know at all at this moment is how the Plague Marine datasheet is handled, as they cannot have DG as per Codex rules... Which in itself is very odd.

[Berzerker88]

 

 

 

Not caring about the re-rolls really. Especially not with the option to re-roll one of them by using CP.

The transport is an argument tho I'd still take a Jump Pack for a character hunter over a Rhino if possible 10 out of 10 times.

 

Again, it's a good dueling character but ULTIMATE character hunter? Nah not even close.

That's just you then, I'd rather take a transport and keep the reroll aura benefits. Most people will care about re-rolling to wound

 

And yes, the Ultimate. He'll eat the biker and jump pack lords for breakfast.

I obviously wasn't talking about raw damage output when I was talking about mobility....I thought that much was obvious lol

What good is raw damage output when you can't reach your target.

I don't know, because he will definetly reach his targets with a transport and the Talisman.

[Brother Aiwass]

If you could go past chaff units, counter-attack units, and everything your opponent put in the way, that is. He lacks a good delivery option by himself (TDA, jump-pack, bike). You can take a drop claw, but that's 200 points more for him which doesn't look good.

 

He's good to go with zerks with a lord or apostle for maximum damage, but not the ultimate character hunter/killer.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

I can't help but see the exalted champ as a support character, and one that I'll be taking in just about all my lists. However, with that said, with his WS2+ he is definitely a prime candidate for the Murder Sword, and I do plan on testing that out at some point.

[BrassClaw]

I can't help but see the exalted champ as a support character, and one that I'll be taking in just about all my lists. However, with that said, with his WS2+ he is definitely a prime candidate for the Murder Sword, and I do plan on testing that out at some point.

Yeah I have build my exalted champion and I planning on running him with murder sword, with a dark apostle, 8 Berzerkers, and a rhino. Seems like a potent combo

 

Here he is

[Berzerker88]

If you could go past chaff units, counter-attack units, and everything your opponent put in the way, that is. He lacks a good delivery option by himself (TDA, jump-pack, bike). You can take a drop claw, but that's 200 points more for him which doesn't look good.

 

He's good to go with zerks with a lord or apostle for maximum damage, but not the ultimate character hunter/killer.

Easy to get pass the chaff since there is always a squad of Berzerkers accompanying in the same Land Raider/Dreadclaw. Which consequentially makes the extra points worth it, since he's buffing those zerkers and everything else within 6" much more effectively than any Chaos Lord. And this is also assuming you're facing a gunline with bubblewrap, which tends not to be the case.

 

So yes, he remains the Ultimate.

[Panzer]

Nop, still not seeing as the ultimate. That's quite a claim.

[Extropian]

I agree with sfPanzer. He's good, and a very good duellist for a CSM character, but no ultimate. Not enough ability to hunt out characters due to lack ofmobility and not enough hitting power to kill some of the more vital targets he can catch (Guilliman, Abaddon will both murder him off the top of my head).

 

He's really good though, especially as a buffing character for Berzerkers (or anything else tbh). And will indeed hack up any lesser characters the opponent is foolish enough to leave in his path.

 

I'll probably pretty much always take one, but just not as a dedicated character hunter.

[Brother Aiwass]

 

If you could go past chaff units, counter-attack units, and everything your opponent put in the way, that is. He lacks a good delivery option by himself (TDA, jump-pack, bike). You can take a drop claw, but that's 200 points more for him which doesn't look good.

 

He's good to go with zerks with a lord or apostle for maximum damage, but not the ultimate character hunter/killer.

Easy to get pass the chaff since there is always a squad of Berzerkers accompanying in the same Land Raider/Dreadclaw. Which consequentially makes the extra points worth it, since he's buffing those zerkers and everything else within 6" much more effectively than any Chaos Lord. And this is also assuming you're facing a gunline with bubblewrap, which tends not to be the case.

 

So yes, he remains the Ultimate.

 

This is also assuming that the other player doesn't actually play and just left his models in the open.

 

But you're usually so adamant in your statements that this kind of discussion is pointless to me. So yeah, whatever floats your goat. He is the ultimate. Good luck hunting Guilliman, daemon princes, swarmlords, ork bosses, Drazhar, Imhotek, tau commanders and whatnot.

 

Don't forget to keep us informed on how many of those you get to hunt.

[Commissar K.]

Well its up to anyone to spend their points on HQ right? To me the conversation would lead a bit to that of Helbrutes versus Titans and the like. So play the Exalted Champion however you want, I agree it's not Guilliman but then again he also does not cost the same.

The two characters I'm looking most forward to test is the simple Daemon Prince with the Talisman of Burning Blood and I also want to test the Lord on Juggernaut of Khorne with the Axe of Blind Fury, though the more I'm considering that the more I think the Chaos Lord on Bike might just be the better choice, as he does gain the additional charge attack and is much faster... Then again S8 is a big leap from S7. I guess in the end I'll ultimately will stick with more princes because 4 attacks just feels too little for Khorne models. On the other side, at least we have a Warlord Trait to give it a little bump.

 

In retrospect I do think that World Eaters are in a decent place still. Obviously there is some envy as there are Legions that in my opinion have more potential overall. Largely because they either filled up a particular weakness or just "stronger" overall in having relevant Warlord Traits and easy to use Legion Traits. In my eyes the armies who thus gained the most out of this Codex would be Black Legion and Night Lords but certainly followed by Alpha Legion, World Eaters and Emperor's Children. Renegades also seem alright but I think it's easy to overvalue the ability as still most CSM units do not need to be in melee combat asap. Then Iron Warriors and Word Bearers got the short end of the stick. 

Though as always I'm looking forward to some new inspiration aswell! I think that the IA is what keeps us rolling in the scene, so what is your favourite transport right now?

[Brother Aiwass]

I agree that it's up to anyone to spend money or points on whatever they like, that's for sure, Commissar. However I'd rather not with unsupported bold claims.

 

Even if we take out Guilliman of the equation, is still a misleading statement, that doesn't hold up. He is good as a sidekick character, but lacks punch to take over decent hq's.

 

Even if you disregard maths, this game is about numbers, and the Exalted Chap doesn't have enough of them in his side.

 

I'd run some numbers when I'm able to do it, even if the proof should be presented by the one who presents statements as a solid stone facts.

 

Cheers.

[Panzer]

And even if he could kill most characters in a 1v1...if he can't catch them he's no good hunter. I'd expect the "ultimate" character hunter to be able to catch a Coldstar or Daemon Prince or even just a Jump Pack/Bike character.

[Commissar K.]

I completely agree with that Aiwass and sfPanzer. One of the things that can still make a change for the Exalted Champion is how he interacts with the CP and offcourse oppertunities create changes.

From my perspective the Exalted Champion is alright in his own design. One thing that I still feel makes him good but not overly relevant to World Eaters is that with the quantity of attacks re-rolling to wound gets very good but isn't always needed. From my perspective our 'true weakness' still comes in the form of Speed, Survivability and thus also indirectly Morale. As a result I actually believe that a Sorcerer and Dark Apostle on the competitive levels does more for World Eaters if you want to support a typical Berzerker unit .

Simple reason being, Warp Time speeds things up, while other Psycic Powers can boost our units in other forms and for those who dislike Psycic Powers in general I feel that re-rolling failed Hits (note: It's not just 1's!) and boost Morale does more. In additon his 4++ is also what I call added Survivability. So when the lad comes in with his Power Maul and Comb-whatever I think that he typically contributes more to World Eater units. As a player of many Skirmish games I always favour re-rolls to hit over re-rolls to wound because hits are what I consider to be the first "filter". Our units hit on 3+'s and mostly wound on 3+'s aswell but more hits on average will also always lead to more wounds on average. The true scary part of our units in my opinion remains the Berzerker Champ and all I want to do with him is hit. Where re-rolling to wound just improves whatever hit in the first place.

The Exalted Champion does have the advantage of being able to thake a Power Fist, which is very nice for him but I can seriously see my Berzerker Champion doing more damage per points as any Exalted Champion. Prime reason being that it's a whole lot more difficult to thake out a dangerous Champion as a dangerous Character. 

Cheers,

Edited August 17, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Sagentus]

A sorcerer in a WE army! he'd be first to lose hhis head lol .... only joking, if its better on a competetive level then it is a must take. 

 

I like the exalted champ, still need the codex so i can see his full rules though (money is tight atm) 

 

You say about the Bezerker champ being better per points value, what load out would you go for? and would dual LCs work ? 

[Commissar K.]

Yeah that's certain, though the advantages of thaking a Sorcerer has a lot of paths. Which is why I believe it's so important for us to know wether or not our Army Rules still apply. Some incline on it not being the case, but then the oddity comes up where Index Chaos having multiple Army Rules. Now if they do not apply anymore, using Daemons is a way to get a second Detachment which is worth something and well... You might aswell add a Sorcerer the moment you do that. Prime reason being that the guy doesn't need to be in combat anyway (thus the World Eater Legion has very little advantage for him) and Bloodletters at 7 points a piece make a really decent 165 point unit for the 20 of them with the whole shebang.

The full rules on the Exalted Champion are simple, so'll inform the ones without the codex.
- It's the same stats as the Dark Apostle but with Ld 8
- He has acces to the Pistols, Combi Weapons and Melee Weapon options, like the rest of CSM he cannot have two Combi Weapons but the acces to a Power Fist is a big pro for him
- Death to the False Emperor is on him
- Aspire to Glory makes you re-roll failed wounds for him and same Legion within 6" in the Fight phase
- For the Dark Gods makes him re-roll failed hits for him against Characters
- The package comes in at Power 5, 70 points

So all in all it isn't a bad package at all, however we're also at a point in the game I feel where in order to be relevant you are either:
1. Gunline support (which a Chaos Lord in any form does really good)
2. Army support (which a Sorcerer does really good)
3. Arrive at the place where you need it at the time where you need it (which Terminator Armour, Daemon Princes and Bikes do)
As a result I cannot see my thaking it any time soon for the same reason I havnt played the Dark Apostle either yet, my points go into things I deem more relevant. In AoS Khorne has a compairable approach where the heavy lifting has to be done in melee. However unlike the AoS variant, survivability, speed ups or morale immunity are extremely rare to find in 40K for the 'narrative correct' choices.

Lastly in regards to the Berzerker Champion, I think dual Lighting Claws would work out really well also but my prime vote remains the Power Fist, especially now it's 12 points instead of 20 which means you basically recieved free Chain Axes for the whole squad or free Icon, depending on how you want to look at it  
The Power Fist World Eater Berzerker Champion on the charge has the acces to those 8 Strenght 10 attacks now when we factor in a succesful charge and Legion Trait. This, more than anything, makes World Eaters Berzerkers worth the effort. Especially when you compair it to the other cult specific unit choices. It's one of the few edges we have but it matters.

All leading to what has become even more relevant than ever, what actually is the "best" transport for World Eaters? What gets us that likely succesful charge?

Edited August 17, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Sagentus]

Cheers Commissar ... I think ill defo go with a PF for my bezerker champ, I may to dual LC on my second squad (got warptalon LC's left over that need using). Thanks for the rulings on the exalted champ, kinda wish i had gone for a PF instead of an LC on Urmak lol. 

[Commissar K.]

Well LC are great also, but the thing is that I feel the PF is the most allround weapon the game offers to champions.

 

LC are not a bad choice however and even better against swarms with medium armour. But the cool thing is that the regular Berzerkers do this really well also. Plus I think the distinction between LC and PF in Chaos is small enough to have it be used mixed. Im using the Warp Talon pieces for it and well, those are something in between.

 

Cheers,

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but assuming the Index has been overwritten (personally I'm gonna keep using Index army rules until GW FAQs it), we can now take Sorcerers in a WE detachment, right?

[Panzer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but assuming the Index has been overwritten (personally I'm gonna keep using Index army rules until GW FAQs it), we can now take Sorcerers in a WE detachment, right?

No you can't. Your units must have the Khorne keyword in a WE detachment. However you can take a Sorcerer in a different detachment in the same army if you want to.

[Commissar K.]

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but assuming the Index has been overwritten (personally I'm gonna keep using Index army rules until GW FAQs it), we can now take Sorcerers in a WE detachment, right?

No you can't. Your units must have the Khorne keyword in a WE detachment. However you can take a Sorcerer in a different detachment in the same army if you want to.

 

Exact! OPTIM they have updated the Errata, we're now at 1.2. Which states:

 

 

Servants of Khorne Add the following to the end of this paragraph: ‘If a unit has the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh keywords, it cannot be from the World Eaters Legion.’

Source: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Index_Chaos_ENG.pdf

 

The real question is again if these Army Rules still apply, as some have stated they do not. If they do not, these Army Rules (which Servans of Khorne is one of) would not apply either...

Which is why I still believe that Page 45 of the Index can still be used in combination with Codex Chaos.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

My thoughts exactly, Commissar. That errata only applies to the Index, and I definitely don't recall seeing any such rule in the Codex... 

[mika_angelus]

Check again.

Page 116, right column, third paragraph.

[Commissar K.]

Check again.

Page 116, right column, third paragraph.

Exactly what are you refering to to check?

 

116, right column, third paragraph:

 

 

 

You do not have to choose a Mark of Chaos for a unit if you do not want to; if you do not, it is assumed that the unit has not dedicated itself to a specific Dark God. The exceptions are units from the World Eaters or Emperor’s Children Legions: all WORLD EATERS units must have the KHORNE keyword if they are able to do so, and all EMPEROR’S CHILDREN units must have the SLAANESH keyword if they are able to do so.

Which would still lead to the option of World Eater Plague Marines unless you factor in World Eater Army Rules as the Plague Marines arn't capable to have the Khorne Keyword to begin with. Unlike what the Errata now forces us to do, which is stating that units with the World Eater Keyword cannot have the Nurgle, Slaanesh or Tzeentch Mark of Chaos. 

 

Understanding the difference is key. This is why the Errata came out in the first place.

- Codex says, IF you have the option, World Eaters must have the Khorne Keyword. Not all units have this option. Because the option is only there for those with Keyword <Mark of Chaos>.

- Index World Eater Army Rules say, If a unit has the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh keywords, it cannot be from the World Eaters Legion. Which again is a rule presented by World Eater Army Rules. Ignore them then by default you do not have to follow Servants of Khorne or Berzerker Horde either Because those rules are not presented by the Codex.

So do you think GW intends to invalidate their own Errata a couple of weeks after they have released it?

 

We also have the FAQ on the Codex which continues to leave us optional with Index rules that arn't updated by Codex rules.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

If we wouldn't be capable to use the World Eater Army Rules, you cannot use the Death Guard, Thousand Sons or Emperors Children by the same logic. Moral remains, Codex Chaos Space Marines does not seem to invalidate Index Chaos whatsoever. What it does do is update some Index entries.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Commissar K.]

Lastly, which more or less renders the whole discussion moot that we wouldn't be able to use the Index rules for World Eaters anymore. If the Index rules are invalidated the World Eater Psyker option becomes available again... Which as per errata on the World Eater Army Rules does not seem to be intended...

Codex, page 116:

 

1. Psykers cannot have the Khorne Keyword.
2. All World Eater units must have the Khorne keyword if they are able to do so. Which Psykers are not able to do so.

So yeah, either those World Eater Army Rules from the Index apply or I'm having World Eater Psykers. I think the most logical choice remains that the Index Army Rules apply

Edited August 17, 2017 by Commissar K.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

The "if they are able to do so" line almost seems so unnecessary as to be intent rather than oversight, especially considering the previous paragraph that psykers are unable to take MoK- is GW now telling us that WE Psykers are ok?...

 

I think it's a bit ridiculous but the context certainly seems to suggest it...