++ Excessive Perfection - An Emperor's Children Community ++

[Panzer]

I would be much more interested if Obliterators had models that aren't fugly. Till then I just gonna concentrate on Noise Marines and Havocs. ^^

 

And yeah the question whether mixed Slaanesh list is worth it ... let's just wait until the Daemon Codex drops. It's not exactly fair to compare a Codex with an Index I feel.

[Commissar K.]

Yeah if you have the Havocs allready it's not perse required to do the Obliterator trick, still, it would scare the heck out of me. 24 Fleshmetal weapon shots is nothing to scoff at. Sure you could roll a bit lower and not have the amazing Lascannon stats but overall though that quantity of shots pinpointed anywhere on the field at anytime is very potent in theory.

I completely agree with you that the Daemon comparison isn't fair, though for the time being we seem to have some choices and without the Daemon Codex in sight or rumoured to be released this year I think a lot of them are now better kept on the sideline. Offcourse Im totally open to someone convincing me differently but the fact of the matter for me is that Slaanesh and Emperor's Children in this book are blessed with some great abilities or perhaps better put very strong upgrades. It's only a handful but it's a handful that matters. The quality always beats the quantity if it's Slaanesh levels of quality ;) 

One of the big plusses I believe is indeed the general cool equipment reductions but also the fact that every EC model actually benifits in a geat way from their Trait. Sure there are more Traits who are also relevant but not nearly all off them logically appear in the course of battle. Example being for WE, having an additional charge attack is neat, IF you charge. Likewise even the great Renegade Trait is usefull IF you want to be doing that, even the BL Trait has some nice advantages but the benifit just doesn't apply to all choices in the Detachment. Wheras EC's trait is beautiful and always relevant. 

[DreamIsCollapsing]

I would be much more interested if Obliterators had models that aren't fugly. Till then I just gonna concentrate on Noise Marines and Havocs. ^^

 

And yeah the question whether mixed Slaanesh list is worth it ... let's just wait until the Daemon Codex drops. It's not exactly fair to compare a Codex with an Index I feel.

 

Check wargame exclusive, they have got 3 great Obliterators count as. 

 

Offcourse Im totally open to someone convincing me differently but the fact of the matter for me is that Slaanesh and Emperor's Children in this book are blessed with some great abilities or perhaps better put very strong upgrades.

 

Well Emperor's Children got a great (not the best tho) legion trait. They've got a situation, mediocre-average stratagem BUT have access, per Slaanesh, to one of the best Stratagem (Endless Cacophony) and one of the best artifact (Intoxicating Elixir).

Unless we got our Noise Marine back into troop (wich will only allow us to save 40-80 points off cultist) we are inferior to Alpha legion Slaanesh warband. Exept we got the best equipment for one of the best unit : Sonic hellbrute

[Commissar K.]

Yeah I think it's fair to say tgar the best Stratagem for sure is Endless Cacophone and that for sure the best Artefact is Intoxicating Elixir. Reason being quite simple, I like those other options but ultimately the Daemon Prince is allready a great deal which with the character buff power makes it even more insane. All for the very low cost of 180 points and that is extremely cheap for the deal. Provided the Psycic Power goes into effect offcourse.

Lastly I still deem it very likely that all Army Rules apply, but Im trying to avoid the subject because it has upset some.
Back to EC/WE vs the rest, most other Legions gained some fantastic Traits, with maby the only "loser" being Word Bearers so the advantage of having Noise Marines/Berzerkers as Troop choices isn't too huge as WE cannot have other Marks of Chaos as Khorne now, as per Errata 1.2. Plus the whole restriction the Errata 1.2. applied on Emperor's Children Legion makes a ton of sence but ultimately is one that is part of the Army Rules aswell. 

We'll see where it ends offcourse but I think Slaanesh and EC actually have some of the best rules, perhaps the best, if you also care for narrative somewhat. I think Alpha Legion's re-positioning is awesome but to me the updated Obliterators also can deepstrike and to me still seem very valid at 195 :P 

I guess Im just too impressed by Assault 4 Flesh weapons or something, though Flesh weapons sound very Slaaneshi to begin with.

[Panzer]

 

I would be much more interested if Obliterators had models that aren't fugly. Till then I just gonna concentrate on Noise Marines and Havocs. ^^

 

And yeah the question whether mixed Slaanesh list is worth it ... let's just wait until the Daemon Codex drops. It's not exactly fair to compare a Codex with an Index I feel.

 

Check wargame exclusive, they have got 3 great Obliterators count as.  

I'm honestly starting to be pretty annoyed by the fact that everyone suggests wargame exclusive for everything (not just for CSM stuff).

They have neat models but I don't think they mix very well with the rest of the army so they are no real option for me.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Back to EC/WE vs the rest, most other Legions gained some fantastic Traits, with maby the only "loser" being Word Bearers so the advantage of having Noise Marines/Berzerkers as Troop choices isn't too huge as WE cannot have other Marks of Chaos as Khorne now, as per Errata 1.2

 

 

I agree, EC/WE should have their cult unit as troops. We all agree on that, but as long as GW don't make a statement, i will continue converting cultist (you need at least some of them anyway). 

 

Yeah I think it's fair to say tgar the best Stratagem for sure is Endless Cacophone

 

 

Imho the best stratagem is VotLW. So even if Renegate Chapter have one of the best "Legion" trait, they still are laking this gem. But Endless Cacophony & VotLW goes together so well..

I agree with you on Obliterator. People cry about their range and lack of close combat weapons, saying that Havok are better. 

But Havok can't deepstrike (unless with a Dreadclaw), they can get sniped if you miss first turn etc..

 

I'm honestly starting to be pretty annoyed by the fact that everyone suggests wargame exclusive for everything (not just for CSM stuff).

They have neat models but I don't think they mix very well with the rest of the army so they are no real option for me.

 

 

 

Well i think they got the best Obliterators, Nurgle Rhino and recently the best Abadon (not like i care about him). But that's all. And if you want, let's say, Slaanesh alternative model i would recommand other. That's being said, if you got another great Obliterators models i would really like to know (same goes for some Chaos Spawn). 

[Commissar K.]

Absolutely, we'll have to wait and see on GWs reply! I also like Veterans of the Long War a lot aswell and as you said the general advantage I think still makes EC worth it is the Endless Cacophony, likely together with the EC Legion Trait I deem really good. I also like Renegades' Trait but at the same time I think it might be a little overvalued. Being able to advance and charge is offcourse great, however it doesn't really add too much if charges are out of the question anyway. As being able to advance and charge still doesn't mean much unless your only objective is to get into melee. Something CSM often want to do but I cant say applies to most of our units, other than Berzerkers there is often a great reason to shoot as normal. 

In terms of Obliterators, I certainly think they have something to do over Havocs now, as you said one of them is the deep strike rule and the other really is the 2+ save, the 5++ and the fact that Fleshmetal Weapons are still Assault Weapons, so backing up and shooting still is a very legit option. I personally like Havocs aswell but at the same time I always see them as kind of sitting ducks, meaning they will be the prime target of deepstrike/reserve tactics and typically speaking the Havoc crew doesn't fight better as Obliterators anyway.
One of the more important things is offcourse the intend but 3 Obliterators remain to 'only' cost 195 points, where 5 Havocs with 4 Missle Launchers allready comes in at 165 and I think we both agree that by this comparison Obliterators certainly have a great advantage in terms of survivability, the difference only comes in at 30 points and typically I would say that 3 Fleshmetal Weapons actually "beat" Missle Launchers in raw allround functionality. 

Lastly I certainly dont want to enforce choices or my opinions on players. Play however you like it! For me the relevant part of any discussion is the use and objective thake on when to apply which choice where. Be it because you like model X or Y, in many cases there is a reason to like it. Havocs vs Obliterators for example still are cheaper and if you thake Havocs because you also have Noise Marines there is only all the more reason to stack up onto infantry.
On the other side of the spectrum I play a Berzerker orientated game where Obliterators in my opinion just fit better as they work well as a distraction or way to bait your opponent into places where they otherwise might not want to go due to the Berzerkers ganging up on them. Wether it's the best or not isn't too relevant for me even, I just like the aspect of striking at all sides at the same time to create some wonderful chaos. It's the typical hang back and shoot units I'm not a huge fan of. However without doubt Alpha Legion Havocs are a serious contender and I indeed would prefer thaking those over say Obliterators because I know Obliterators are more likely to end up within 12" of an enemy.

Cheers,

[Sersi]

Commissar K.

 

Next to that, I still think that EC Obliterators with the Slaanesh mark and Endless Cacophony is a very scary prospect and the advantage there is that you can basically pinpoint it wherever you deem it to be relevant. In addition I feel a big reason as to why Daemonettes are very interesting comes from Quicksilver Swiftness and Flawless Perfection does the same so yeah...

 

 

Obliterators are incredible now even without Endless Cacophony you could just use a character aura and VOTLW and be very effective for 1 CP. If your short on command points or need to use them elsewhere.

 

In the end I want to say 30 Daemonettes are certainly completely legit but also cost 210 points and the whole shebang is 235, with Legion Traits a whole lot of 235 point units can actually compete with this unit and be a simple primary inclusion for the list. Last but not least I am still not convinced that the Codex renders the EC Army Rules useless either and I do think that if this is the case Noise Marines remain a more than excellent Troop choice.

 

 

I have to disagree of Daemonettes they cost almost half as much as a CSM and are miles better in melee even with chainswords. Right now their more point efficient for the damage they do than Genestealers. In addition to being AP-1 base and AP-4 on a 6 to wound. Then add in the their 5+ invulnerable save that can only be bypassed with mortal wounds.  Quicksilver Swiftness and Flawless Perfection are equivalent but the melee damage output isn't the same even with DttFE and a IOE.  At 235 they are incredibly cheap for what the do.

[Sersi]

I would be much more interested if Obliterators had models that aren't fugly. Till then I just gonna concentrate on Noise Marines and Havocs. ^^

 

And yeah the question whether mixed Slaanesh list is worth it ... let's just wait until the Daemon Codex drops. It's not exactly fair to compare a Codex with an Index I feel.

 

I just proxy my converted Sonic Terminators in place of the hideous official models.  You could also just use 2 Noise Marines or 2 of the FW Kakophoni models on a single base. 

[Commissar K.]

 

Obliterators are incredible now even without Endless Cacophony you could just use a character aura and VOTLW and be very effective for 1 CP. If your short on command points or need to use them elsewhere.

 

 

 

I have to disagree of Daemonettes they cost almost half as much as a CSM and are miles better in melee even with chainswords. Right now their more point efficient for the damage they do than Genestealers. In addition to being AP-1 base and AP-4 on a 6 to wound. Then add in the their 5+ invulnerable save that can only be bypassed with mortal wounds.  Quicksilver Swiftness and Flawless Perfection are equivalent but the melee damage output isn't the same even with DttFE and a IOE.  At 235 they are incredibly cheap for what the do.

 

Happy we agree on the Obliterators, Ive allready dusted off my old ones and will see if I can convert them into something mean.

 

As above Im not saying Daemonettes are bad but Im also not sure how much better they are in melee in comparison with melee units. Sure they hit harder as chainswords but if you have great Sonic Weaponry there is no real reason to rush for melee anyway and this is something Daemonettes regardless will have to do. I think their 5++ is allright but in practice a 3+ armour save isn't too often going deeper down as a 5++, the melee damage versus hordes with Daemonettes is certainly better though for MEQ I would say that wounding on 5+'s  isn't too incredible.

 

Though as above if you feel like running a full Daemonic detachment next to a regular one you can certainly still do so, however missing out on the upgrades CSM recieved is my reason to focus on Daemons again once they have their Codex.

[Baluc]

If you are looking to play as EC the Daemonette vs cultist conversation is less saliant as every unit in the detachment needs to have the Legion keyword as per page 157. Of course in that case you are only missing out on the legion trait which you probably could live without, but it is nice to know that you can charge something with your DP not kill it, and get a 2nd swing unless the opponent charges him with something. ​

 

I agree with you @Commissar K Oblits are excellent 4 shots base on a good platform is worth consideration. 

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Great news : The new FAQ is up, NOISE MARINES ARE BACK IN TROOP SLOOT !

[Castigator]

Praise be Slaanesh! 

[Commissar K.]

Great news : The new FAQ is up, NOISE MARINES ARE BACK IN TROOP SLOOT !

AND Daemon Princes gain Legion Traits benifits!

 

This is an extremely good day indeed.

 

Congrats to all the EC and Slaanesh fans on having the best Daemon Prince in the book, bar none, dare I say it.

 

Link: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/20/chaos-space-marines-and-grey-knights-updates-now-availablegw-homepage-post-4/

[Panzer]

And EC Berzerker aren't possible anymore. Thank god! :D

 

Oh and Daemon Princes can benefit from Legion traits now! \o/

[DraneceusRex]

Praise be Slaanesh! 

Praise be! :D

[SonicWarrior028]

Would love your thought on what would be more effective? i'm just thinking out loud.

 

1. Spartan carrying squad of 20 noise marines + Endless kakophoni = 120 St 4 shots (No Cover Saves)

 

or

 

2. Spartan Carrying squad of 20 possessed with Exalted Champ and Dark apostle = Rerolling all hits and wounds in Melee.

 

 

Has anyone found any EC combos they really like? I love my EC so i keep it <Emperor's Children> <Slaanesh> and take whatever the rules give me.  

[Panzer]

Not sure why Noise Marines would need a spartan. 24" Assault weapons are pretty solid already. 

So I'd say the more efficient combination would be the version with Possessed.

[Commissar K.]

Would love your thought on what would be more effective? i'm just thinking out loud.

 

1. Spartan carrying squad of 20 noise marines + Endless kakophoni = 120 St 4 shots (No Cover Saves)

 

or

 

2. Spartan Carrying squad of 20 possessed with Exalted Champ and Dark apostle = Rerolling all hits and wounds in Melee.

 

 

Has anyone found any EC combos they really like? I love my EC so i keep it <Emperor's Children> <Slaanesh> and take whatever the rules give me.  

Spartans are awesome but I'm not too sold on Possessed personally. Even with striking first I'd personally say that a Emperor's Children Daemon Prince is actually all the melee offense you might wish for. Which is the perfect segway to your EC Slaanesh combo's question. Here is some things I believe deserve a certain respect from your opponent:

 

1. EC Daemon Prince of Slaanesh + Malific Talons + Wings + Diabolic Strength + Intoxicating Elixer + (any really Warlord Trait) which you can even boost up further with Strategems.

2. EC Obliterators of Slaanesh + Endless Cacophony

3. EC Noise Marines Champion + Lightning Claws + Excess of Violence

 

All of these above mentioned are allready very potent by their own and the combo's in itself are what I believe should be rightfully feared. Especially the Daemon Prince is something else as it merely comes in at 180 points and there is very little reason not to include one with the Elixer and the other with Diabolic Strength. The damage output of that with the Talons ensures some serious damage, to the point where you could also consider thaking one or two of them with the Daemonic Axe as they now cost the same as a pair of Talons (and the first Talon is free anyway). 

 

In general my opinion on EC is that one of their biggest advantages is that they do not have that much need for Transports. Not that they are the fastest or have the longest ranges but the quantity of Assault Weapons plus always being part of the 'Charge attackers phase' really means they are set up very well to be part of the game as they are.

 

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Has anyone found any EC combos they really like?

 

 

- Combi-melta Terminator with Prescience, Warptime, VotLW & Endless Cacophony (can also be used with raptor or bike for a cheaper version)

- Possessed with IoE, Excess of Violence, Daemon Prince, Delightfull agony (from DP), Herald of Slaanesh & Hysterical Frenzy (from Herald of Slaanesh)

- Sonic Dreadnought with 2 Blastmaster, 1 Missile Launcher & Fire Frenzy

- Daemon Prince with Intoxicating Elixir and EC Warlord trait (no need to take Daemonic Force, going from Strengh 8 to 9 is useless imho), take Delightfull Agony or the spell to cancel Invulnerable save. 

 

Too bad Rapiere is Hellforged without the "Daemon" keyworld, Daemonforged with Quadbolter Rapiere would have been so brutal...

[Commissar K.]

 

(no need to take Daemonic Force, going from Strengh 8 to 9 is useless imho), 

I'm uncertain if you mend Diabolic Strenght but if you do apply it to a Daemon Prince with Elixer your going from Strenght 8 to 10.

It can matter, especially versus those Toughness 5 infantry/Bikers that is rearing it's head here and there ;) 

[DreamIsCollapsing]

 

 

(no need to take Daemonic Force, going from Strengh 8 to 9 is useless imho), 

I'm uncertain if you mend Diabolic Strenght but if you do apply it to a Daemon Prince with Elixer your going from Strenght 8 to 10.

It can matter, especially versus those Toughness 5 infantry/Bikers that is rearing it's head here and there

 

 

Yep Diabolic Strenght sorry. 

I didnt fought much Biker army these times, that must be why i find Delightfull Agony or taking off Invulnerable Save more valuable. 

[Commissar K.]

 

 

 

(no need to take Daemonic Force, going from Strengh 8 to 9 is useless imho), 

I'm uncertain if you mend Diabolic Strenght but if you do apply it to a Daemon Prince with Elixer your going from Strenght 8 to 10.

It can matter, especially versus those Toughness 5 infantry/Bikers that is rearing it's head here and there

 

 

Yep Diabolic Strenght sorry. 

I didnt fought much Biker army these times, that must be why i find Delightfull Agony or taking off Invulnerable Save more valuable. 

 

I completely hear that. Though once the DG Codex drops and the models will be all released I do expect quite the common sight of T5. The models look brilliant, they have a starter kit, the Plague Marines are set up to be one of the best Troop choices in the game but I too have to admit that local meta's might differ. It's just that those Nurgle models look amazing and that usually means someone will pick them up in an area near you

 

Edit:

 

Hey hey now! More fun ahead!

 

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Hmm, i forgot about the incoming Death Guard..

 

With the NM back as troops, here is my update list : 

 

Bataillon Detachment : 

HQ
Daemon Prince with wings, Intoxicating Elixir, Warlord with EC Warlord traits, Spell : Delightfull Agony
Dark Apostle with Power maul

Troops
10 Cultist
10 Cultist
10 Cultist

Elite
Hellbrute w/ 2 Blastmaser, Missile Launcher
5 Terminator w/ 4 Power sword, 1 power fist 5 combimelta

9 Possessed w/ IoE

Support
Defiler w/ Defiler Claw, Battle canon, Heavy flamers, Twin Heavy Bolter, Combi-bolter
5 Havok w/ 3 Lascanon

Rhino w/ Combi-bolter

Bataillon Detachement

QG
Chaos Sorcerer with jumpack & Force sword
Exalted Champ with power maul, combi-bolter

Troops
10 Cultist
5 Noise Marines w/ 4 Sonic blaster, 1 Blastmaster
5 Noise Marines w/ 3 Sonic Blaster, 1 Blastmaster, 1 Combi-plasma

 

Total : 1934 points (enought to summon a Herald of Slaanesh on table). 

[Panzer]

Only 10 Noise Marines in a 2k EC army makes me kinda sad. :D