[HH1.0] Tactica Chainaxe: World Eaters

[Guiltysparc]

What would you guys change on them?  I think something like hatred or furious charge, maybe access to dreadclaws as DTs, and access to straight power weapons rather than the caedere (or just change the caedere so they are worth 10pts).

 

or something more exotic like giving them the ability to assault after their scout move.  I feel like scout is wasted on assault units.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

What would you guys change on them?  I think something like hatred or furious charge, maybe access to dreadclaws as DTs, and access to straight power weapons rather than the caedere (or just change the caedere so they are worth 10pts).

 

or something more exotic like giving them the ability to assault after their scout move.  I feel like scout is wasted on assault units.

 

Either:

Cost reducton to put them on par with tacticools

Caedere weapons as standard - you can swap between types for free

Artificer armour 

Special or exotic rule like you said - maybe rending on the charge or something

[Charlo]

 

What would you guys change on them?  I think something like hatred or furious charge, maybe access to dreadclaws as DTs, and access to straight power weapons rather than the caedere (or just change the caedere so they are worth 10pts).

 

or something more exotic like giving them the ability to assault after their scout move.  I feel like scout is wasted on assault units.

 

Either:

Cost reducton to put them on par with tacticools

Caedere weapons as standard - you can swap between types for free

Artificer armour 

Special or exotic rule like you said - maybe rending on the charge or something

 

 

Caedere as standard makes sense as the models come like this.

 

I'd enjoy a rule where they can multi charge/ don't care about disordered charges, still get full attacks.

 

FNP5+ to represent them just not caring?

[Caillum]

Yeah, Caedere weapons as standard, with a slight points increase on the unit. Or keep them with chainaxes and make the Caedere weapons 5 points instead of 10.

 

I'd also like to see Apothecaries gain a few new units they're allowed to join, specifically weaker Legion-specific units like the Rampagers.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

Yeah, Caedere weapons as standard, with a slight points increase on the unit. Or keep them with chainaxes and make the Caedere weapons 5 points instead of 10.

 

I'd also like to see Apothecaries gain a few new units they're allowed to join, specifically weaker Legion-specific units like the Rampagers.

 

Why would Apothecaries not be able to join Rampagers? Unless I'm missing something. 

[Charlo]

 

Yeah, Caedere weapons as standard, with a slight points increase on the unit. Or keep them with chainaxes and make the Caedere weapons 5 points instead of 10.

 

I'd also like to see Apothecaries gain a few new units they're allowed to join, specifically weaker Legion-specific units like the Rampagers.

 

Why would Apothecaries not be able to join Rampagers? Unless I'm missing something. 

 

 

There is a specific list of units Apoth's can join. Its in thier entry or the units.

[GreyCrow]

I think Rampager squads can be looked at in 2 ways. Either they are built to be a cheap line support unit and go along the main Troops providing extra melee punch when needed, either they can be built as a pressure assault unit. When I say Assault though, I don't mean melee damage primarily, I mainly mean a speedy unit capable of going where it wants and for the opponent to deal with it, which lifts firepower away from other sources of long range damage giving them a couple of extra turns of supporting fire.

 

If we look at the second build : 10 guys, 10 Jump Packs, 10 Caedere weapons is about 430 points. Not a cheap unit by any stretch, but let's look at what it can do :

1) Deployment options : Turn 1 it can be 24" away from its main position if early pressure is needed (which will really take pressure off the big guns). It can also be kept in reserve to be dropped near a nuncio-vox squad later on and change target priority. its mobility affords it to deep strike behind line of sight blocking terrain to force the enemy to move in reaction to that threat.

2) Assault capabilities : The Caedere Weapons are quite interesting (except perhaps the last one) :

- Meteor Hammer : S6 Concussive at Initiative 5 is awesome. 10 guys charging with 30 attacks will kill 4.167 Marines before they get to swing. If charging a squad of 10, that's 40% less return attacks with a 0.5 dead guy in return. Pretty good impact, it will also wreck many vehicles allowing to trap enemies inside (you only need 5 guys to bubble wrap a rhino and prevent disembarkation.

- Excoriator : Probably the best weapon for the Rampagers. S5 AP3 Shred will maul much stuff. Against a basic Tac squad, you're going to lose 0.83 guys before initiative 1, meaning 27 attacks, 12 Marines dead. S5 is also versatile enough to drown ennemy tanks under a nasty amount of attacks.

- Falax : 6.67 dead on the charge from 10 guys

- Barb-Hook Lash : Cool fluff, only good against MC heavy armies.

 

It's not a bad unit, though it's probably not the ultimate Assault squad with deathstar capabiities. But when looked army wide, if you're packing a Plasma Heavy Support Squad and 10 Rampagers with Excoriators start rushing your lines ahead of Terminators in a Land Raider, prioritizing target is going to be a nightmare.

Edited April 20, 2016 by GreyCrow

[Flint13]

^The issue there is looking at everyone of those possibilities is in the best possible light where the Rampagers are charging at full strength.

 

Against most opponents, that's never going to happen. It's impossible to make them any more resilient than an Inductii squad that will be arguably more effective in combat. Look at 10 Inductii compared to that 10 man rampager squad with excoriator axes. The Inductii almost half the points even when you include Surlak's cost since he needs to be in the army somewhere. The only thing the Inductii lack is jump packs and 1 higher AP in combat with chain axes. They have more attacks than the rampagers that aren't unwieldy and have the same strength. It's also literally half the points to add additional Astartes to that Inductii squad.

 

There is no way the math is ever going to work to favor rampagers, which sucks bc they're awesome.

[GreyCrow]

Oh definitely ! Let's not use such math as a value of the damage, but as a value of the threat they represent.

 

Can an opponent afford to let this level of threat run lose ? I don't think so. However, this threat on its own isn't enough to carry the damage. I can see them working in a World Eaters list more centered around shooting.

 

For example, at 2000 points, having 1000 points of in Rhinos Despoilers with a Power Fist sergeant, these 10 Rampers and a Typhon, I can see the opponent having tough choices for target priority. Or replace the Typhon by 1 or 2 squads of Heavy Support Marines for that higher rate of fire. Then deployment and movement make it so that you can't shoot both of them down effectively, and that if you prioritize one, the other will be a thorn.

[Guiltysparc]

Charlo had it exactly right, they are a unit lost in time.  They are made obsolete by inductii.  Check out this comparison using my model...

 

Unsaved Wounds vs MEQ

10 Inductii, Sarge with Power fist - 5.0 (3.5 at i 4, 1.5 at i1)

10 Rampagers with Hammers - 4.9 at i5

9 Rampagers with Excoriators - 10.5 (9 to account for striking at i 1)

10 Rampagers with Falax - 5.2

10 Rampagers with barb hook - 4.9

 

All of the caedere options pack roughly the same punch as an Inductii squad except the excoriators (which are significantly better but only if you are charging non-ap3 wielding targets).

 

For 430pts you could put 10 rampagers with jump packs and one of the above options on the table and pressure the enemy...or you could put 10 inductii in a dreadclaw and do the same thing with 165pts to spare...

[God-Potato of Mankind]

A charging inductii squad is just as terrifying a prospect for most armies, this is only compounded by the fact your opponent will (hopefully) know how cheap his oncoming annihilation will be and know true despair. 

 

If anything this cheap, stabby doom is just better for the psychological effect it will have on the enemy. One expects an expensive, legion specific unit to be expensive and kill things. One does not expect tacticals to kick face so thoroughly. 

[Flint13]

Oh definitely ! Let's not use such math as a value of the damage, but as a value of the threat they represent.

 

Can an opponent afford to let this level of threat run lose ? I don't think so. However, this threat on its own isn't enough to carry the damage. I can see them working in a World Eaters list more centered around shooting.

 

For example, at 2000 points, having 1000 points of in Rhinos Despoilers with a Power Fist sergeant, these 10 Rampers and a Typhon, I can see the opponent having tough choices for target priority. Or replace the Typhon by 1 or 2 squads of Heavy Support Marines for that higher rate of fire. Then deployment and movement make it so that you can't shoot both of them down effectively, and that if you prioritize one, the other will be a thorn.

But every single time I see the threat of the Rampagers (which I'll grant you, is legitimate) in a list, my first thought is going to be that you could at least double that threat with Inductii since you can have twice as many of them.

 

Then the gap only widens if you're using Berzerker assault or Crimson path since you have more models benefitting with approximately the same damage potential before the RoW bonuses.

[Charlo]

Each Rampager is worth two inductii.

 

But a single inductii is worth more than a Rampager....

[Flint13]

Exactly.

 

And I'm not sure how to work the math behind it, but the more Inductii you take, the better that value is since you only have to buy Surlak once *and* he boosts whatever squad he's in even further.

 

Seriously, Ten Inductii *and* Surlak cost less than 10 rampagers.

 

S'why I've moved them to most spare parts :(

[GreyCrow]

I'm not aware of these inductii you speak of ? Is it from Retribution ?

[Guiltysparc]

I'm not aware of these inductii you speak of ? Is it from Retribution ?

 

ya, if you take Gahlan Surlak (apothecary character from book 6) you can many any of your tactical squads into 'Augmented Inductii' for 0pts.  They gain +1S, -1BS, are no longer scoring, and can only be joined by Surlak or other apothecaries (no other ICs can join their unit).  They are dudes where Surlak cranked the nails up to 11 to make them super crazy.

[GreyCrow]

Oh ok thanks, that's pretty cool !

[Guiltysparc]

Indeed, you throw a power fist on the sargent and you have a pretty cheap source of S10 goodness.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Guiltysparc

[T0MMY]

Waheyyy my Anvil Industry chainaxes arrived!! Plus I ordered some chain glaives, just cos they're cool!

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s301/llltomlll/yer%20im%20a%20geek/IMAG0260x_zpsq6hlu1q6.png

Need some more guys to give dish them to now. Think I might save the glaives for a biker squad, counts as chainaxes...

 

Gahlan Surlak sounds awesome - I do find it a pain in the butt that I have book 1 but not all the WE rules are in it... do I really hjave to buy all the books £££?!

[Guiltysparc]

chain glaives are so awesome...the nightlords glaives make me sad, i wish WE chainaxes had the same stats, lol.

 

You don't have to buy all the books, just book 6 and the updated red book.

[Slips]

Thing is, Tommy, that book 6 came out this year. Book one came out over 5 years ago at this point.

[Flint13]

 

I'm not aware of these inductii you speak of ? Is it from Retribution ?

 

 

ya, if you take Gahlan Surlak (apothecary character from book 6) you can many any of your tactical squads into 'Augmented Inductii' for 0pts.  They gain +1S, -1BS, are no longer scoring, and can only be joined by Surlak or other apothecaries (no other ICs can join their unit).  They are dudes where Surlak cranked the nails up to 11 to make them super crazy.

Don't forget their 6+ FnP!

 

Actually Exhortations of Butchery is kinda another nail in the coffin of Rampagers too... its an option that's very hard to get for them (since you'd have a buy a Primus medicae) and even if you did, you'd be loosing a 20pt model on a failed end-of-combat save instead of a 10pt one.

[depthcharge12]

Maybe Rampagers will get a buff in the new book? They just feel useless at the moment.

[Slips]

Well, if anyone has the new AoD Book at hand, feel free to look up their entry and tell us if anythings changed :p

[Caillum]

Well, I got my Red Book yesterday. Been looking through everything (after the Imperial Fists changes were missed) and Rampagers are completely unchanged. Disappointing.