Guiltysparc Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 [snip] Be interesting to see the maths on 5 butchers, 15 chain axe marines and 15 inductii vs MEQ and TEQ I did this compare a while ago but now that chain axes are +1S here are some new numbers... vs MEQ 15x Despoilers - all Chainaxes - 11.7 Unsaved wounds 15x Inductii - all chainaxes - 14.6 unsaved wounds 5x Butchers - Axes and Double Chainfist on Devourer - 19.0 unsaved wounds vs TEQ (4++) 15x Despoilers - all Chainaxes - 5.8 Unsaved wounds 15x Inductii - all chainaxes - 7.3 unsaved wounds 5x Butchers - Double Axes and Double Chainfist on Devourer - 9.5 unsaved wounds These assume Rage, Hatred, and re-rolling 1s to wound Fangbanger and Gorgoff 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 The Butchers models are butt ugly in my book so none of them for me. I'll be converting my own from plastic Cataphractii. Add some chains, some extra sculpted details, maybe some skulls, and Bob's your uncle. Gorgoff 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Well the thing to remember is that we're just as good at all the normal legion stuff as everyone else. We're just leaps and bounds better when it comes to melee Being pedantic here, but not everyone else. Certain Legions get accuracy or deployment tricks that make them better at gunning folks down (Sons of Horus, Imperial Fists, Ironwing Dark Angels, Iron Warriors, Alphas and Ravens), or get fancy gear unavailable to others (Warriors again, Noise Marines, either variety of Angels), but yes, given that the new Core book has most Legions leaning on baseline units rather than their uniques, World Eaters are certainly no slouch at standard Legion tactics. Plus most of the strongest shooting options are vehicles and don't care about Legion choice. My my, what swift strides the World Eaters have made in the span of just a few months. AoD Legions, Book VI, and now AoD Core have really been a potent combination of stimulants (no pun intended) for what used to be an unremarkable Legion. Free chainaxes with the new profile is probably one of the best Legion perks in the game, easily on par with Death Dealers or Mutable Tactics. My Vorax hate Inductii. Blackshield Chymeras or Ultramarines leaning heavily on Suzerain and Locutarus may stand a fighting chance (in an Age of Sigmar-style match up of super-geared elites vs. swarms of berserkers), but otherwise the World Eaters reign supreme in the facepunching business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guiltysparc Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 At the risk of opening the worm can, can someone rehash the whole free chainaxe thing for me? I have been playing as though the unit needed to have a CCW in hand in order to get the upgrade (ie, tactical marines need to exchange their bolter or buy the ccw to get the chainaxe upgrade, but the upgrade itself is free). I'm not interested in debating it, just that i have not read the argument from the other side and its something i would like to be convinced of, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) A model which "has access" to a chainsword can get a chainaxe for free. There is no mention that the model has to purchase/wield the chainsword beforehand, which would make it an upgrade to existing wargear. Hence, it's free wargear. Not replacing anything. Considering how many times this exact wording has been reprinted throughout the various books, I feel pretty confident saying it isn't a mistake or an oversight. If the intent was to require the model to wield a chainsword before upgrading it to a chainaxe, I believe that's what the rule would say. I know no one wants to rehash the argument, so I'll leave it at that. There's the argument from the free chainaxe point of view. People who believe/play it otherwise are not Hitler, and we're all free to play our game of toy soldiers as we see fit. Edited July 27, 2016 by Venomlust Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra and Billy Butcher 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangbanger Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Ah Angron, Red Butchers and a Spartan. No kill like overkill :lol: but seriously, I feel like that's a terrible waste of points allocation. No... Seperate Spartans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangbanger Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 [snip] Be interesting to see the maths on 5 butchers, 15 chain axe marines and 15 inductii vs MEQ and TEQ I did this compare a while ago but now that chain axes are +1S here are some new numbers... vs MEQ 15x Despoilers - all Chainaxes - 11.7 Unsaved wounds 15x Inductii - all chainaxes - 14.6 unsaved wounds 5x Butchers - Axes and Double Chainfist on Devourer - 19.0 unsaved wounds vs TEQ (4++) 15x Despoilers - all Chainaxes - 5.8 Unsaved wounds 15x Inductii - all chainaxes - 7.3 unsaved wounds 5x Butchers - Double Axes and Double Chainfist on Devourer - 9.5 unsaved wounds These assume Rage, Hatred, and re-rolling 1s to wound Very interesting For less points and hitting at a higher initiative, inductii might be the way to go it seems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Question, vs the TEQ bit, were the Despoilers and Inductiis calculated vs a 2+ save or the 4++? (Also dont forger the sergeants power fist attacks, they are S10 on inductii!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Question, vs the TEQ bit, were the Despoilers and Inductiis calculated vs a 2+ save or the 4++? (Also dont forger the sergeants power fist attacks, they are S10 on inductii!) I was wondering the same thing about the saves. They'd have to be S8 somehow to trigger the invulns, or I guess the target T3 due to rad or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 As a general overview, I cant complain but were I not at work Id check them vs FNP and Rad Grenades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guiltysparc Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 My mathammer excel model calcs saves for both regular armor and invuln, so the despoilers were bouncing off the 2+ whereas the butchers were hitting the 4++. The inductii were all chainaxes, if i toss in a power fist sargent in the inductii vs TEQ you get 8.3 unsaved wounds. Both the axe and fist are wounding on 2s, you get 1 less attack with the fist but only half of those wounds are saved vs 5/6ths of the axe. Khornestar and Fangbanger 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) At the risk of opening the worm can, can someone rehash the whole free chainaxe thing for me? I have been playing as though the unit needed to have a CCW in hand in order to get the upgrade (ie, tactical marines need to exchange their bolter or buy the ccw to get the chainaxe upgrade, but the upgrade itself is free). I'm not interested in debating it, just that i have not read the argument from the other side and its something i would like to be convinced of, lol. Hoooboy, break out the plastic sheets, everyone, we're about to see some arterial spray. This is the way I see it, FW uses the "access to" language consistently with "option to take" and "eligible to take", followed up with "may instead" when opening up alternative weapon options. For example, "Any character model with the Legiones Astartes (Emperor's Children) special rule with access to a power fist as an option, may instead take a Phoenix power spear for the same cost." "Any character with the Legiones Astartes (White Scars) special rule with access to power weapons as an option may instead take a power glaive for +15 points." "Any model with the Legiones Astartes (Blood Angels) special rule with access to a volkite serpenta/plasma pistol as part of their Wargear options may instead take an inferno pistol for +15 points. Any Praetor, Centurion or Consul with the Legiones Astartes (Blood Angels) special rule with access to a power fist as part of their Wargear options may instead take a Blade of Perdition for +20 points." "Any Word Bearers character with the option to take a power weapon may take a tainted weapon instead at the same cost." "Any independent character with the Legiones Astartes (Imperial Fists) special rule that is eligible to take a thunder hammer may take a Solarite power gauntlet instead for the same points cost." "Any character or Independent Character with the Legiones Astartes (night Lords) special rule eligible to take a power weapon as part of their options, may instead take a Nostraman Chainglave for the same listed cost." "Any character or Independent Character with the Legiones Astartes (Death Guard) special rule eligible to take a power fist as part of their options may instead take a Deathshroud power scythe for the same listed cost." None of these seem to imply that you have to buy the eligible item first. You don't need to buy a thunder hammer to rock the Solarite gauntlet, or a power sword to get a tainted weapon, etc. Then there is another category of unique weapons like the Fist/Angel assault cannons, Ultramarine Legatine axes, Raven Talons and the World Eaters' own Caedere weapons which all consistently state you have to have the eligible weapon in question, and then pay to exchange it for something else. With the Dark Angels, we even get both rules in one: "Any character model with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule with access to a power sword as part of their Wargear options may instead take a Calibanite war blade for +10 points instead, or exchange a power sword that is part of their basic equipment for a Calibanite war blade for Free." I think "Any model with the Legiones Astartes (World Eaters) special rule which has access to a chainsword can instead take a chainaxe for free" fits more in the first category rather than the second. So the guy writing the World Eaters rules was a man of few words. Are you surprised? :D Follow the syntax. Edited July 27, 2016 by Terminus Cactus, Khornestar, Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra and 2 others 5 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) snip Wow. If it's one thing I appreciate, it's someone who takes the time to do their research and communicate it effectively. The fact that we agree is icing on the cake. I reward you with the looped sound of Bloodlust: Edited July 27, 2016 by Venomlust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guiltysparc Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 welp, i am convinced looking at the langauge in the other LA rules. You can drop the phase "for free" in place of any of the point cost for the various weapons and have the same sentence as the LA WE rule, so i think that makes total sense. I had not looked at all of the LA rules for their verbiage so i assumed that the LA WE one required the model to have a chainsword, which also made sense from a RAI standpoint, until you look at the other LA rules. Thanks for the clarification. however, this does provide me with a bit of a modeling connundrum, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 They reeaaaaally need to change the wording on the WE chainaxe rule. It needs to go from this: I think "Any model with the Legiones Astartes (World Eaters) special rule which has access to a chainsword can instead take a chainaxe for free" fits more in the first category rather than the second. So the guy writing the World Eaters rules was a man of few words. Are you surprised? Follow the syntax. to something resembling this, or at least the second part of this: "Any character model with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule with access to a power sword as part of their Wargear options may instead take a Calibanite war blade for +10 points instead, or exchange a power sword that is part of their basic equipment for a Calibanite war blade for Free." Because if you go fully RAW, it means WE that carry a chainsword as basic equipment cannot actually exchange those for chainaxes. And that is mega dumb. Non-functional rules, hooray! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guiltysparc Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Interestly, i did a quick googlin' and this bro on reddit posted a screenshot from FW claiming otherwise...i know photoshop and whatnot, maybe i'll do an email of my own. https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer30k/comments/4499cz/world_eaters_free_chainaxes_on_tacticals/? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangbanger Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Um slips..... It's happening again..... :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) I must stop myself. I've said what I came to say. In other news, I actually bought the WE transfer sheet from FW's website today. After years of waffling over which legion to choose, I went with the obvious choice. Edited July 27, 2016 by Venomlust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guiltysparc Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) Um slips..... It's happening again..... We can end the conversation, i really was just interested in the other side and after reading the post i fully agree with it. I just also saw the reddit post so i put it up here. Edited July 27, 2016 by Guiltysparc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) Yup, guilty is now in the loop as to why this is a...taboo... Topic as of now :p Welcome to the inner circle, I guess? Edited July 27, 2016 by Slipstreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guiltysparc Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Sweet inner circle action Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) I marked out Kh Edited July 27, 2016 by Venomlust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Guiltysparc Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 I marked out Kh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Khornestar Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) Dang, I thought I was crazy for a sec. Thanks. How do you think mkIII arms would look on mkIV bodies? Edited July 27, 2016 by Venomlust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Guiltysparc Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Hmmm, a little wonky since the mk3 bracers are golly geehuge in comparison...but maybe if you used mk3 shoulders also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Prev 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 Next Page 56 of 93 Create an account or sign in to comment You need to be a member in order to leave a comment Create an account Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy! Register a new account Sign in Already have an account? Sign in here. Sign In Now Share More sharing options... Followers 18 Go to topic listing Recently Browsing 0 members No registered users viewing this page.
Guiltysparc Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 I marked out Kh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Khornestar Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) Dang, I thought I was crazy for a sec. Thanks. How do you think mkIII arms would look on mkIV bodies? Edited July 27, 2016 by Venomlust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Guiltysparc Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Hmmm, a little wonky since the mk3 bracers are golly geehuge in comparison...but maybe if you used mk3 shoulders also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Prev 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 Next Page 56 of 93 Create an account or sign in to comment You need to be a member in order to leave a comment Create an account Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy! Register a new account Sign in Already have an account? Sign in here. Sign In Now Share More sharing options... Followers 18 Go to topic listing Recently Browsing 0 members No registered users viewing this page.
Khornestar Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) Dang, I thought I was crazy for a sec. Thanks. How do you think mkIII arms would look on mkIV bodies? Edited July 27, 2016 by Venomlust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guiltysparc Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Hmmm, a little wonky since the mk3 bracers are golly geehuge in comparison...but maybe if you used mk3 shoulders also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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