The Talon Of Horus

[Marshal Rohr]

Speaking of forbidden loves, do we get the classic A D-B mortal female character for the deep expository convos? In ToH.

[Kol Saresk]

Sorta.

[depthcharge12]

"Oh Argel Tal if only we could be together fo-"

 

 

*BLAM*

 

 

"My only woman is my Boltgun."

 

 

 

So how about them spoilers? I want to get this book but I ran out of organs to sell (my college and Alan Bligh already own most of them)

[Phantomzero17]

Speaking of forbidden loves, do we get the classic A D-B mortal female character for the deep expository convos? In ToH.

 

The interview a few months back mentioned a female Dark Eldar slave.

[Kol Saresk]

Slave isn't the right word.

[Knight of the Raven]

A shame. The irony would have been delicious.

[SteelPaladin]

Ok, I'm about halfway through now, but I came across a throwaway line the other day that I had a question about.

 

"The Warmaster wields a blade that rends reality apart, and bears the claw that killed two primarchs..."      Ok, so one is Sanguinius, who is the second? Maybe the Horus clone?

[Conn Eremon]

Or perhaps one of the Primarchs that falls after the Heresy. Hopefully not Dorn, because I've always liked that he was dragged down by the blades and claws of many.

 

But Corax, the Khan and Russ all disappear into the Eye of Terror, never to be seen or heard from again. I doubt AD-B would outright state that this is what he meant, but it could be a throw-away line meant for people to ponder and debate, opening avenues of thought for those who like it but not being so specific as to alienate those who wouldn't.

 

Or maybe Abaddon got tired of Alpharius' :cuss , and finished the job Guilliman started. :p

[Vesper]

Ok, I'm about halfway through now, but I came across a throwaway line the other day that I had a question about.

 

"The Warmaster wields a blade that rends reality apart, and bears the claw that killed two primarchs..."      Ok, so one is Sanguinius, who is the second? Maybe the Horus clone?

Yes.

[depthcharge12]

Or perhaps one of the Primarchs that falls after the Heresy. Hopefully not Dorn, because I've always liked that he was dragged down by the blades and claws of many.

 

But Corax, the Khan and Russ all disappear into the Eye of Terror, never to be seen or heard from again. I doubt AD-B would outright state that this is what he meant, but it could be a throw-away line meant for people to ponder and debate, opening avenues of thought for those who like it but not being so specific as to alienate those who wouldn't.

 

Or maybe Abaddon got tired of Alpharius' :cuss , and finished the job Guilliman started. :p

Only an Alpharius can kill an Alpharius.

[FashaTheDog]

Or perhaps one of the Primarchs that falls after the Heresy. Hopefully not Dorn, because I've always liked that he was dragged down by the blades and claws of many.

But Corax, the Khan and Russ all disappear into the Eye of Terror, never to be seen or heard from again. I doubt AD-B would outright state that this is what he meant, but it could be a throw-away line meant for people to ponder and debate, opening avenues of thought for those who like it but not being so specific as to alienate those who wouldn't.

Or maybe Abaddon got tired of Alpharius' , and finished the job Guilliman started.

Only an Alpharius can kill an Alpharius.

Or can he?

[GWflufffan]

Fluffy here, with comments and questions (NOTE POSSIBLE SPOILERS (though I will try not to spill much)):

 

No 1 & 2 important questions: did people enjoy the book.  And why?  As James Joyce said, "quote me something" -- so what are the parts that stick, good or bad, in your mind (or craw)?

 

For myself, I think ADB delivered a very solid book, once of the best all year, and a promising beginning to an interesting series and a new aspect of the 40k mythos.  That said...I don't think this is quite a "great" book, for a couple of reasons.

 

So, by far, the most interesting portion of the novel is the time describing Abaddon himself.  For some reason, Khayon's observations of his hair, when they first meet in the Vengeful Spirit - like I can just imagine the greasy, dark strands of hair falling over his face. Not because Abaddon is ugly but ultimately, he is not at all vain, at least not in this characterization. He is instead so clearly focused on essential things, like power, like unity, like achieving his ambition, and everything else (i.e. the Legion Wars) is dross.  So, in just a few pages, ADB creates a gripping, memorable characterization of one of 40k's most talked-about villains.

 

On the other hand, I think the stuff about Khayon is, despite ADB's efforts and intensity, unsuccessful to a degree.  Khayon, our narrator and frame for everything, is not a terribly engaging personality and I didn't find myself too invested.  In large part, this was because I thought he was too...not unified (?) as a character.  On one hand, he is caring, compassionate, loving.  His sister, the dark eldar woman, his daemon, the Rubricae -- these things are powerful motivators for Khayon and the compel him to take risks.  On the other hand, he has the inhuman callousness, the willingness to simply kill, slaughter and/or sacrifice anyone (not just legionarries and the servants of Chaos but innocent crew members or other humans).  The problem is not that this dichotomy exists, but that ADB does not appear to account for it, to deal with it (to resolve it, explore or even just depict that tension), so, given how the issue is not taken up, I am not sure this inconsistency is something that ADB intended.

 

The other problem with Khayon, and I think this is a challenge for many characters-who-narrate but who are not the central character in the story, is that weird mix of active and passive.  Is Khayon meant to be a witness or primarily an actor?  I mean, he is obviously supposed to be a hugely powerful sorcerer and yet throughout the book he seems to be more than happy to acquiesce, to Abaddon and to others.  For example, take the small section about his part during the voyage to Canticle City: he does this hugely powerful act of magic, but it is depicted without great energy, involvement or even the exercise of will and power.  

 

In other words, I do not think ADB has found the center of Khayon, though hopefully this will improve in the next novel in the series.

 

The last problem I have with Khayon is actually with the entire framing device of wandering in and surrendering to the Inquisition so that he can reveal what appears to be his life story, etc.  Obviously, the rationale that Khayon offers at the end of the book is insufficient (that Khayon can reveal all these secrets because ultimately, such revelations with have no impact on the cause of the Black Legion, plus there's a matter of this emotional revenge plot against the Emperor) and I think that's an obvious red herring thrown in by ADB. But that said, unless Khayon's story is just a way to confuse or mislead the Inquisition (which seems unlikely to be *that* effective against an organization that expects to hear lies in what anyone tells them), then the question is, why should Khayon, the great, powerful sorcerer, care about what the inquisition believes?  Like, why should that motivate this character at all?  It's not like telling the Inquisition means educating all of humanity - the inquisition is a body of secret-keepers, they'll just lock up his revelations.  In other words, something doesn't seem to fit, at least for me.

 

Anyway, these are just a few thoughts to get the conversation going.  Please note that there is a LOT more to talk about in Talon of Horus, a lot more to appreciate, like, dislike, comment on.  I just wanted to focus on a couple of items as a starting point.

 

- Fluffy

[Fury_of_Fenris]

I think we will find out why he hands himself in, i have an idea that maybe since he is so powerful a great demon could overtake him and he could rampage and smash the inquisition or something

[Conn Eremon]

Maybe he's the man inside, an ace in the hole. Things happen, and at a particular inopportune time (for the Imperium), Khayon (who I just can not pronounce as anything but how you would pronounce "crayon" without the 'r,' no matter how hard I try) reveals his imprisonment had been for show this whole time.

 

 

Or maybe he was just captured, because nobody is infallible, and he doesn't see any harm in explaining just how thoroughly :cuss ed his captors are.

[Kol Saresk]

Or, as he said, he came to Terra alone because that is exactly where Abaddon wants him to be.

[Conn Eremon]

Or, as he said, he came to Terra alone because that is exactly where Abaddon wants him to be.

So the first one, or do you mean something else?

[Kol Saresk]

Talon of Horus, Pages 353-354

 

'Khayon,' one of my captors speaks my name, and I smile at the sound of it from a human throat. She is the one that always lingers longest when the others are gone, and asks the most pressing questions. She brings the queries that matter to me, rather than seeking yet another dry recounting of gods and faith and weakness and war.

 

'Greetings, Inquisitor Siroca.'

 

'Are you well, heretic?'

 

'Well enough, inquisitor. You come with a question?'

 

'Just one. In your account so far, you remain silent on one vital aspect - you've not told us why you surrendered yourself into our custody. Why would a lord of the Ezekarion do that? Why did you come to Terra alone, Khayon?'

 

'The answer to that is simple. I came because I am an emissary. I bring a message from my brother Abaddon, to be carried to the Emperor, before the Master of Mankind finally dies.'

 

I hear her breath catch in her throat. Instinct forces her reply before she can even consider what she's saying.

 

'The God-Emperor cannot die.'

 

'Everything dies, Siroca. Even ideas. Even gods, and especially false gods. The Emperor is a memory of a man enthroned on a broken engine of false hope. The Golden Throne is failing. No one knows that better than those of us who dwell in the Eye. We can see the Astronomican dying. We can hear the Emperor's song fading away. I did not come to Terra to surrender myself into your hands in order to laugh at the dying of His light, but neither will I coat the truth in honeyed lies to make it easier for you to hear.

 

'These are not reports on a screen to me, inquisitor, or reams of casualty figures to be easily discarded. The Emperor's Light is fading across the galaxy. How many fleets of vessels have been lost these last decades, to flickers in the Astronomican? Thousands? Tens of thousands? How many worlds have cried out in rebellion these last ten years alone, or screamed in psychic distress? How many have fallen silent in the shroud of the warp, now home to nothing but the tread of daemons? Here, on Terra... Can you hear any of Segmentum Oacificus's thousands of worlds? A quarter of the galaxy has fallen silent. Do you know why? Do you know what wars they are fighting, while cloaked in silence and shadow?'

 

She was silent for a long time.

 

'What is the message you brought for the Emperor?'

 

'It is simple enough. Ezekyle asked me to journey here and stand before our grandsire, just as we did when the Imperium was young. I will meet the dying Emperor's empty eye sockets and tell him that the war is almost over. At least, after ten thousand years of banishment in the underworld, his fallen angels are coming home.'

 

'Does the Warmaster not need you in his war, on the front lines?'

 

'I am exactly where he needs me most, inquisitor.'

 

I feel her watching me in the wake of those enigmatic words. She judges me for them, judges their possible meanings. And at last, she nods.

 

'And will you keep telling your tale?'

 

'Yes, inquisitor.'

 

'But why? Why do you give your enemies everything they ask for?'

 

Ah, such a question. Did I not tell you, Thoth? Did I not tell you that she was the one to ask the questions that mattered?

 

'These are the End Times, Siroca. None of you are destined to survive the coming of the Crimson Path. The Imperium has been losing the Long Wat since it was first declared, and now we enter the endgame. I will tell you everything, inquisitor, because, for you, it will change nothing.'

 

[GWflufffan]

OK, yeah, I thought of these possibilities myself (well not that a daemon had possessed him).  

 

But my problem is that I find none of them...for lack of a better word, believable.  I mean if he is so powerful, why assume the Inquisition would keep him anywhere on Earth?  If I were the inquisitors, and I heard that, I would take this guy out-of-system faster than you can say squig.  

 

So in about 5 seconds of thinking, I've dismantled some key part of the Black Legion black against the Imperium.

 

Unless, you say, maybe Khayon and Abaddon knew somehow that the inquisitors who would come to monitor Khayon would somehow not do that?  But if that's the case, ADB is bestowing the Black Legion with a level of omniscience and/or prescience that makes this whole conflict a joke -- I mean if the Black Legion could do that, they would have bowled the Imperium over millennia earlier.

 

Honestly, I think the whole ace-in-the-whole "not really a prisoner" thing is probably right.  But to me that just seems like a really forced plot device, no?  Or do you guys thinks this works, that this fits with the character?  If so, why?

[Conn Eremon]

Sure, outsider type logic like "if I were them" can easily pick out errors, but the threat you mention might be seen as either negligible or nonexistent. As far as they are concerned, Khayon is captive, vulnerable and powerless in a cell somewhere in the most well-defended place in the galaxy. Whatever bravado he projects, their arrogance trumps that.

[Kol Saresk]

And let's look at this from another angle. They've gouged out his eyes, caged his powers, crucified and beaten him. The only thing they haven't done is rip out his tongue. And that's the problem.

 

Because he is talking. And some of them are listening.

 

What is the biggest problem of any siege? The defenders. What is the best way to break the defenders? Psychologically. So here you have the enemy telling you the very thing you see but do not believe is real. That your faith is worthless. And worse, they're pointing out that you know it too. How long would you last?

[Antarius]

I think his captivity works very well both as a literary device and in-setting. As a storytelling device it gives us the benefit of more angles and perspectives, without ruining the cohesiveness of a single narrator. Honestly, I like that enough that I'd forgive a few weaknesses to the in-setting logic of the thing.

 

In the setting however, I think it functions quite well too. We obviously don't know what's going to happen juat yet, but the Inquisition are pretty confident that they've "got him" -and why shouldn't they be? I mean, they've taken every precaution they've got, short of killing him (which will probably turn out to be a mistake, but hey). If it turns out he can overcome those precautions, it's only as outside observators that that seems an obvious outcome.

As of now, I'd say the main danger he's posing is that he's giving them what they want: knowledge of their enemy. The very thing that'll inevitably turn against them at some point. He's a bit of a Hannibal Lecter figure, the way I see it; sure, he'll eat your face if you free him, but the most dangerous thing about him is how he'll get inside of your head and the thoughts he'll plant there -all the while he's making himself indispensable so you won't just break off your bond with him, of course.

 

Can you tell I liked the book?

[Noctus Cornix]

Just got done this morning.

 

SO

 

FREAKING

 

GOOD

[Son of Carnelian]

I'm working my way through it right now, but without saying any spoilers: who wants a dating sim where you play as Iskandar Khayon? Cause I know I do! 

[Noctus Cornix]

I'm working my way through it right now, but without saying any spoilers: who wants a dating sim where you play as Iskandar Khayon? Cause I know I do!

Words cannot describe how much I loathe you right now but how much that made me laugh. Well done, sir. Well done. :D

[Loesh]

Anything major lorewise that happens or something cool that shows up? I don't really care for the Black Legion, not enough to read about them anyway, but if there's something particularly interesting in there...