++ The Harrowing - An Alpha Legion Community ++

[hushrong]

Man, that's tough. It really depends on what you want to do and how are they going into battle? You could infiltrate them and have your JP Sorc warptime them into burning range against a juicy target. Or infiltrate and fire twice thanks to endless cacophony and do serious damage to armor with plasma (I do this with terminators deep striking).

[Scourged]

Flamers vs. Combi-bolters. In terms of damage potential, they're identical, so that makes things easier. So it really comes down to the number of hits possible. So, assuming 5 man units, the chaff is T3 and ignoring saves for now, and if I've done the research right...

 

Flamers: ~17.5 auto-hits, ~11.7 wounds

Rapid fire combi-bolters: ~13.3 hits, ~8.9 wounds

 

So damage potential favors the flamers. But then there's range, obviously. If one Infiltrates, that's a non-issue since you're allowed to move normally after using Forward Operatives. If using other means, such as a Rhino, then range does become a bigger factor. So your plans for deploying the Chosen can affect your weapons.

 

Another consideration (if only slightly) is Hidden in Plain Sight. To rapid fire, you have to be <= 12" away from the enemy, but to be -1 to hit you have to be > 12". So, hypothetically, you could get just close enough to rapid fire, and then with enough casualties you'd then be just far enough away to be harder to hit. Now, in practice it may not matter at all, but I figured it was at least worth mentioning. 

 

Perhaps the biggest concern of all of this is cost. Combi-squad runs you 90pts, flamer squad 127 (Champion can only take combi-flamer). Due note, though, that a Havoc flamer squad will only cost you 112 for the same damage output (just one less attack and leadership).

 

Of additional consideration is the Chosen's "sixth man". Up until now, all of this is considering a minimum 5 man squad. That sixth man can take a special or a heavy weapon, but not combi. So, using all that from above, your flamer squad can be bumped to 6 flamers , averaging ~21 auto-hits (plus a couple bolter shots at -1 to hit, technically, if you wanted to). 

 

Now if you run the combi- route, the sixth man can't get you another 2/4 bolter shots. No. But for 10 points he can take a Heavy Bolter, so that's something. And, again, since Forward Operatives doesn't count as "moving," there'd be no hit penalty. Would it be helpful? *shrugs* Maybe. A few extra shots with a longer range and a bit more potential for wounds, so maybe.

 

Regarding cultists: So, if we keep it as close to point-for-point as we can (90 vs 88, 127 vs 128), in either situation and equivalent number of autogun cultists in rapid fire range ends up doing slightly more total wounds in the end (~11 and ~16, respectively), the gap widening as the cultist unit gets larger. Again, on average with no modifiers or rerolls (and assuming I have my math correct). So point for point vs 5-man Chosen, the potential of the cultists is a better. Again, this is just for potential damage on the enemy, before any saving throws. Funny thing is, though... these cultist blobs will benefit way more from strategem and reroll use than the Chosen will, and only because of numbers. Start tossing around things like Prescience, reroll 1s, VotLW, the Slaanesh strategem... and cultists win against chaff. 

 

Regarding plasma: It's a way to go, especially considering all the above. Again, Havocs are cheaper, but Chosen will let you field one extra plasma gun. So there's that. The other competitor for that job is obviously Terminators. But, having access to Forward Operatives drastically skews that competition. Chosen are roughly half the price of the Terminator equivalent, and for the cost of 1CP they have the utility of a deep strike + 6". Of course, Terminators cost twice as much for a reason (better save, inv. save, power weapons for all, etc.). So, as before, it just depends on how you want to use them, and any additional investments (strategems, Lord, Sorcerer, etc.). 

 

Moral of the story... I don't know, hah! That's the breakdown, as I understand it. I'm sure someone around here can give you a deeper analysis, and reliable mathematics for each loadout (really hoping I did all that simple math correctly...). To me, either Chosen squad will end up as a sacrificial unit. Should all go to plan, you'll get up close, do a decent amount of damage, and then they will more than likely get shot up - especially the flamer squad. Between the two, I would run them as the combi- boys (and not just because I have a squad of FW Headhunters). Cheap, decent-ish dakka, and a better chance they'll be ignored and can run away and do something else. 

[RelentlessPursuit]

Thanks so much for such a well thought-out ,thorough reply.

I think im going to go with the combi bolters for a few games and see how I feel.

Can always remodel them to carry something else at some point.

So my 1k (budget) list is roughly:

Chaos Lord w/ jp

Chaos sorcerer w/ jp

40 cultists

2x12 cultists

7 berserkers

3 oblits

2x5 combi bolter chosen.

Does that sound reasonable? No drastic errors?

Many thanks again all!

[Panzer]

Also other things to consider with the Combi-bolter vs Flamer thematic:

 - Flamer have 0 damage output against anything >8" while Combi-bolter still have at least 2 shots each at 13-24"

 - Combi-bolter benefit from re-roll auras and prescience but Flamer don't

 - Combi-bolter are only about as good as Flamer when you hit at 3+. At 4+ the Flamer has almost twice as many hits than a Combi-bolter in Rapid fire range on average(3.5 hits vs 2 hits)

 - Flamer have a way higher damage output in Overwatch

 - You can advance and shoot with flamer without losing any damage output from the -1 to hit

That being said, if you don't expect to get charged or to face lots of negative to-hit modificators, I'd always go with Combi-bolter.

[RelentlessPursuit]

Thanks for that sf, always appreciate your advice.

How did my 1k look? Ok for a staring force? Do I need to invest in plasma or anything instead of the 2x5 chosen?

[Panzer]

I'd say you're lacking anti-tank for a 1k list and the only thing I'd remove to get some would be the Chosen since they really are the worst unit in the Codex.

However for Casual games it looks good enough. Just play to the objectives.

[Scourged]

I agree with sfPanzer. Despite all of the talk and write up, the 2x5 Chosen would be the first to go. For that amount of points, you could swap them out for a full-lascannon Havoc squad for a decent anti-tank firebase, with some points left over. Or, an autocannon Predator with lascannon sponsons for the exact cost. Both would end up pulling their weight more, probably. 

 

But it always depends on what you're facing, though. Learned that the hard way over the weekend with Custodes. 

[RelentlessPursuit]

Do have a unit of oblits in there, don't expect to face much armour (if any) so I think I'm going to go for some noise marines which I can convert up from the chosen models.

Thanks again chaps!

[ezekill]

Currently finishing off my DA army once thats done i plan to start an Alpha Legion army love the whole are they arnt they special black ops fluff but want to learn more of the Alpha fluff..

So can you guys recomend some good books and in what order i should read them in?

[hushrong]

I really like the Horus Heresy novels like Legion, Serpent Beneath, The Harrowing. There are others I have yet to read myself.

 

Then there are 40K ones too like Shroud of Night which was ok and Sons of the Hydra which I still need to finish. 

 

Actually, now that I remember it, Deliverance Lost. Loved it.

[ezekill]

I really like the Horus Heresy novels like Legion, Serpent Beneath, The Harrowing. There are others I have yet to read myself.

 

Then there are 40K ones too like Shroud of Night which was ok and Sons of the Hydra which I still need to finish. 

 

Actually, now that I remember it, Deliverance Lost. Loved it.

Thanks buddy off to the black library i go..

[ChazSexington]

Thanks for the tips!

Torn on the chosen - I know I want to take some but I really want to be running them optimally (my army is low budget - but aiming to be competitive on that budget)

All combi bolters?

All flamers?

Or as I have a cultists bomb for chaff clearing do I go all plasma?

Appreciate all your insights.

 

Plasma and MoS from a competitive POV. That's 24 plasma shots (granted combi-plasma on Champ) from them if within 12" and you use Endless Cacophony. Add Prescience and a Chaos Lord's re-roll aura for 2+ to hit and re-rolling ones, and the VotLW stratagem for an additional +1 to wound. It gives you some utility - if the enemy has loads of chaff, you use the Cultist bomb. If they have some dead 'ard units, load up the plasma. 

 

 

I really like the Horus Heresy novels like Legion, Serpent Beneath, The Harrowing. There are others I have yet to read myself.

 

Then there are 40K ones too like Shroud of Night which was ok and Sons of the Hydra which I still need to finish. 

 

Actually, now that I remember it, Deliverance Lost. Loved it.

Thanks buddy off to the black library i go..

 

 

I would read them in the following order: Legion (okay), The Face of Treachery (good), Deliverance Lost (okay), Serpent Beneath (fantastic), the Seventh Serpent (poor), the Harrowing (okay), then Praetorian of Dorn (poor). Alternatively, also get HH3: Extermination.

 

There's also the Hunt for Voldorius (okay), Shroud of Night (not read yet), The Long Games at Carcharias (good), Sons of the Hydra (okay), We Are One (okay), Hunter's Moon (poor) which can be read in any order, but the Long Games at Carcharias should be before Sons of the Hydra. 

[hushrong]

Nice, There are a few in there I have yet to read. I hadn't heard of the Long Games at Carcharias. Might have to look into that before I try again to reread Sons of the Hydra.

[ChazSexington]

Nice, There are a few in there I have yet to read. I hadn't heard of the Long Games at Carcharias. Might have to look into that before I try again to reread Sons of the Hydra.

 

It's Rob Sanders, the "Alpha Legion author," if there is one. It's kinda a short prequel to Sons.

[hushrong]

Interesting. I'll try to see if I can download a digital copy this weekend and read it. Then try to read Sons of the Hydra. I always get a third in and then something comes up and I just never start back up.

[ezekill]

okanother question im pondering when i start collecting my alpha legion can i use regular space marines or do i need to stick to CSMs?? Ivealso seen peeps painting primaris marines as Alpha legion how does that work surley traitor legions wouldnt have access to them ??

[ChazSexington]

okanother question im pondering when i start collecting my alpha legion can i use regular space marines or do i need to stick to CSMs?? Ivealso seen peeps painting primaris marines as Alpha legion how does that work surley traitor legions wouldnt have access to them ??

 

You can do exactly what you want - we are not slaves to Guilliman's doctrines! 

 

At worst, I could see people, and especially tourneys, take exception to the equipment and base sizes on the Primaris - they wouldn't be WYSIWYG.

[ezekill]

 

okanother question im pondering when i start collecting my alpha legion can i use regular space marines or do i need to stick to CSMs?? Ivealso seen peeps painting primaris marines as Alpha legion how does that work surley traitor legions wouldnt have access to them ??

 

 

You can do exactly what you want - we are not slaves to Guilliman's doctrines! 

At worst, I could see people, and especially tourneys, take exception to the equipment and base sizes on the Primaris - they wouldn't be WYSIWYG.

awesome so i can do as i please im gonna do a mix of loyal and traitors maybe some primaris incessors but with different helmets etc my Alpha are gonna be more rule of cool than game legal

[hushrong]

That's fine. Build and collect as you please as its your money.

 

For kicks I am making an Alpha Legion Berzerker squad like look like Ultramarine assault/vanguard marines after seeing someone do that for chosen.

[Panzer]

 

 

okanother question im pondering when i start collecting my alpha legion can i use regular space marines or do i need to stick to CSMs?? Ivealso seen peeps painting primaris marines as Alpha legion how does that work surley traitor legions wouldnt have access to them ??

 

You can do exactly what you want - we are not slaves to Guilliman's doctrines! 

At worst, I could see people, and especially tourneys, take exception to the equipment and base sizes on the Primaris - they wouldn't be WYSIWYG.

awesome so i can do as i please im gonna do a mix of loyal and traitors maybe some primaris incessors but with different helmets etc my Alpha are gonna be more rule of cool than game legal

Just keep in mind that your Intercessors would still have to be used as Chaos Marines tho if you want to play with them. You can use the models, but that doesn't mean you have access to the loyalist rules.

[ezekill]

 

 

 

okanother question im pondering when i start collecting my alpha legion can i use regular space marines or do i need to stick to CSMs?? Ivealso seen peeps painting primaris marines as Alpha legion how does that work surley traitor legions wouldnt have access to them ??

 

You can do exactly what you want - we are not slaves to Guilliman's doctrines! 

At worst, I could see people, and especially tourneys, take exception to the equipment and base sizes on the Primaris - they wouldn't be WYSIWYG.

awesome so i can do as i please im gonna do a mix of loyal and traitors maybe some primaris incessors but with different helmets etc my Alpha are gonna be more rule of cool than game legal

Just keep in mind that your Intercessors would still have to be used as Chaos Marines tho if you want to play with them. You can use the models, but that doesn't mean you have access to the loyalist rules.

 

ok thanks for that so i can build them how i please but game wise they will just be standard chaos space marines .thats cool by me.

i plan to make this my long term project to have a unique looking Alpha legion Army decided for my base marine im going to use the primaris reviers as they only have the tiny skull and daggers motif on the chest that is quite easy to remove without leaving a trace and the arms and backpacks from chaos spacemarines i have also ordered some forgeworld alpha helmets and shoulder pads to complete the build not a very cost effective means but they will be unique looking .

im going for an overall subtle look rather than the in your face spiky chaos look i want peeps to second guess if they are loyalist of chaos :)  

[hushrong]

Sounds like a fun, solid plan! Looking forward to seeing it!

[ezekill]

Sounds like a fun, solid plan! Looking forward to seeing it!

i will be sharing pics as i go .just waiting on that heretic of a postman to deliver all my parts lol 

[Excessus]

I would use primaris as chosen myself...now if only I could bring myself to actually put chosen in a list... -_-

[hushrong]

I heard ‘da dum tish’ from afar and had to come in.

 

Yeah. Chosen, like the one cousin you wave to at reunions but don’t want to hang out with. Really wish they had some cool rules that showed they are a cut above their kind aside from ‘take all the guns’ stuff.