++ The Dark Council - A Word Bearers Community ++

[tikhunt]

I did include cultists actually, the Helcult formation includes a Hellbrute and 2 units of fearless cultists that gains zealot if the hellbrute dies, meanwhile the Helbrute can sacrifice a cultist for a 3+ cover save from intervening models.

 

The list I proposed included fearless cultists, possessed, a Daemon Prince, basic CSM, Daemon summoning and Spawn. Which Imo is a very fluffy Word Bearers army only missing a Dark Apostle and even then the Lords unit will have Hatred Imperium and Fearless basically giving him the effects of being a Dark Apostle.

[totgeboren]

Hmmm, true that. Well, I guess it's as I have said since we got the current Codex. The best place for a DA is back on the ship, conducting rituals giving your force the gods favour! :p

[tikhunt]

Well as far s I'm concerned Dark Apostles and Warpsmiths should just be Lords with a purchaseable upgrade which gives them the rules associated with each. After all we're not chapters that have a formal hierarchy. So using a Lord who does the same things as an Apostle but better and cheaper isn't that unfluffy Imo.

[totgeboren]

Speaking of Lords with upgrades, I think I found a way to make the army work like I want it to.

 

I'll simply use the BL rules for my Warband! Everyone gets Crusader, Fear and Hatred instead of just Crusader, meaning the Lord will have Hatred+Fearless=Zealot. That combined with Path to Glory and Favoured Scions which is basically a beefed up version of the DA Beseech the Dark Gods special rule would turn my Lord into an upgraded Dark Apostle.

 

So I can actually have warband of marines being lead by an 'Exalted Dark Apostle', and getting half of Zealot to my basic WB sounds rather reasonable. Useful marines lead by a functional Dark Apostle. Finally.

 

Since I will need a CAD for my FW stuff anyway, I could just count that as a WB Detachment and get a Daemonologist if I really want to too.

[tikhunt]

Well a WB Lord in a Black Crusade Detachment will gain those same benefits besides crusader so you don't have to use Black Legion rules.

[totgeboren]

From what I understand WB only get crusader and Hatred Imperium while the BL get crusader, fear and Hatred, which applies every round to Imperial armies.

 

For me that means I get crusader using WB rules, or Crusader, fear and hatred using BL rules.

[tikhunt]

Well you also get hatred imperium from Traitors Hate as well as roll twice for Chaos Boons which you can +/-1 to with WB. Each is valid and I hope you manage to make whichever rules you pick fit your take on our fluff.

[Zectz]

This is the thing I am wondering. How does this supplement work alongside the Traitor's Hate. Can we use these legion special rules within a Black Crusade Detachment? The detachment says under restrictions that all models must have the Chaos Space Marine faction. But doesn't the Traitor Legions supplement change the faction name to the specific legion we are using? Or does the faction name remain simply as "Chaos Space Marines" while using these legion special rules?

 

I assume yes we can and I'm sure once we see the book the wording will make it pretty clear. Similar to how Space Marine chapters all have the same faction but just different rules. It just seems very messy when you have to refer to 3 different books when playing now... And not everyone at your local hobby store is going to fully understand so have fun explaining to them in pickup games how your army is battle forged within these 3 books!

[Lord Asvaldir]

You don't have to refer to three books, all the traitor's hate formations are in the traitor legions supplement. All the traitor legions decurions are all based off of the black crusade detachments, so there isn't really a big difference between all the formations truth be told. Now I'm not sure if you can use the standard traitor's hate decurion with a Word Bearers detachment, but I'd say it doesn't really matter-you get all the same benefits out of running the Word Bearers decurion, plus crusader with all the great uses of that USR. 

 

Does anyone know yet if we can take just a single deamon engine as a detachment in our decurion like thousand sons can? I'm going to be really irritated if on top of a lord and sorcerer I have to take a warpsmith to have a viable list. 

[Zectz]

yeah that makes sense. But I don't think the Word Bearer detachment has the same benefits + crusader though. Just looking at the boon roll benefits, from the leaks it sounds like a single boon roll each turn for the Word Bearers detachment but the Black Crusade detachment allows you to roll twice and choose both.

[totgeboren]

Well you also get hatred imperium from Traitors Hate as well as roll twice for Chaos Boons which you can +/-1 to with WB. Each is valid and I hope you manage to make whichever rules you pick fit your take on our fluff.

 

Since I generally don't face Imperial armies (only Xenos), all these rules vs Imperials do not aid me in the least.

BL seem to get Hatred vs everyone, Fear and Crusader. All these small buffs would make my crappy basic marines much more useful, while also allowing me to turn my Lord into a count-as Exalted Dark Apostle. The WB rules... give me Crusader. That's it.

Since none of the WB relics are even remotely useful (for my Lord or DA facing xenos), there really is no point in using the WB rules at all. The only useful WB relics are the ones for Sorcerers, and I could just include one of those in a CAD.

 

So, reading a bit more. To turn my Lord into an Exalted Dark Apostle, I would likely need to use a Black Crusade detachment to get Path to Glory (looks like a much better version of 8-fold path) and Favoured Scions, and use the BL rules to get Hatred.

To support them I would need a CAD with various stuff, which could be a WB CAD. Being WB gives your troops absolutely nothing unless you happen to be a Sorcerer that uses Malefic, then you get to harness warp charge on a 3+. That's really how limited our buffs are. Our Word Bearer marines get... nothing (unless you happen to fight Ultras, then both get buffs against each other so no net gain).

 

So if you want to use a summoner, the WB rules gives that model a slight buff. Otherwise the WB rules are basically playing without using legion rules.

Edited December 4, 2016 by totgeboren

[Plaguecaster]

You don't have to refer to three books, all the traitor's hate formations are in the traitor legions supplement. All the traitor legions decurions are all based off of the black crusade detachments, so there isn't really a big difference between all the formations truth be told. Now I'm not sure if you can use the standard traitor's hate decurion with a Word Bearers detachment, but I'd say it doesn't really matter-you get all the same benefits out of running the Word Bearers decurion, plus crusader with all the great uses of that USR.

 

Does anyone know yet if we can take just a single deamon engine as a detachment in our decurion like thousand sons can? I'm going to be really irritated if on top of a lord and sorcerer I have to take a warpsmith to have a viable list.

Unfortunately not :( As from what VeteranNoob says only Black Legion and thousands sons have access to them which is pretty damn stupid likewise with armour units like predators being only thousand sons. Seems like the only non formation Aux choice is spawn Hopefully this is a mistake on GWs part and they FAQ it as its pretty stupid that the legions can field their daemon engines or tanks only when a Warpsmith is present. Another sore point is no dark apostles unless you take the cultist formarion or have an extra CAD Edited December 4, 2016 by teutonicavenger

[Lord Asvaldir]

Man that's a real let down. 

 

yeah that makes sense. But I don't think the Word Bearer detachment has the same benefits + crusader though. Just looking at the boon roll benefits, from the leaks it sounds like a single boon roll each turn for the Word Bearers detachment but the Black Crusade detachment allows you to roll twice and choose both.

 

The two rolls on the boons table comes from the chaos warband formation, so we still get that when using a Word Bearers army. Basically WBs feels like the standard black crusade detachment, just with the bonus of crusader and +3 WP on summoning. 

 

It is a real shame we didn't get anything else, considering how powerful the rules are for some of the other armies army wide zealot would have been perfectly reasonable. Guess I'll just have to settle for a bonus to summoning some demons. 

[jumai]

Having zealot on a bubble does at just open up go to ground shenanigans (for more than just cultists, who everyone can do it with). That's *something* unique we get, even if it doesn't really justify the points cost for taking a LotD.

 

I actually did like the implication that our tactical objectives would be higher reward. That feels fluffy to me; we're not just trying to do things, we're enacting the WILL OF THE GODS and will stop at nothing to serve this higher purpose. I'd be OK with it if some of our unique strength came from good scoring... not convinced it's gonna help much though.

 

I'm really nervous to try loading out a DP for daemonology in a summoning list... making a single, unhideable model into both your costly FMC and your lynchpin gimmick psyker just sounds like your opponent will kill him first and then you're kinda screwed, right?

Considering 2x L2 bike sorcs end up costing about the same, I'm kinda wondering which is actually the bigger risk, eating extra perils or stacking what feels like my whole army onto a single T5 model with crap saves and no ablative wounds.

 

 

The pressure to use daemonology *does* make part of me want to take warp talons in a raptor pack, fish up Cursed Earth for anti-scatter, and finally see what it looks like when they do what they were meant to do. I doubt it's actually worth the investment but at least it would be satisfying.

 

 

I dunno boys. I love the XVII but for the next little bit I think I'm just gonna see what i can cook up if I actually utilize the options available. The mixed-warband possibilities using detachments from seperate legions look really interesting right now, and maybe it's time my 109th host swore some uneasy pact of cooperation on crusade...

[Zectz]

The two rolls on the boons table comes from the chaos warband formation, so we still get that when using a Word Bearers army. Basically WBs feels like the standard black crusade detachment, just with the bonus of crusader and +3 WP on summoning.

 

It is a real shame we didn't get anything else, considering how powerful the rules are for some of the other armies army wide zealot would have been perfectly reasonable. Guess I'll just have to settle for a bonus to summoning some demons.

That's the thing though it doesn't. Re-read the Chaos Warband. It specifically says as a result of the champion of chaos rule. So we would only get 2 rolls if he kills a character.

 

That's why the black crusade detachment's "Path to glory" specifically says if character has the "Favoured scions" rule THEN you roll twice. Unless the Word Bearer detachment has this wording then we won't be rolling twice and getting both results.

[Lord Asvaldir]

We'll have to wait and see on the wording then.

@Jumai: I feel the same way man, I do love the XVII fluff wise, but compared to the awesome rules for legions like DG and EC, it's a huge letdown. I'll be waiting to have the book in hand of course, but if I can't make a half decent list I might have to proxy another legion's rules as WB, or just play a different chaos warband.

 

Also as far as summoning goes, I'm probably just going to run a sorcerer on a bike. Sure, it's not necessarily the best choice since the sorc will be suffering perils on doubles, but hey the high risk high reward factor feels perfect for chaos.  

Edited December 5, 2016 by Lord Asvaldir

[jumai]

Someone elsewhere posted that our FBD can take lone Apostles under the Lords Of The Legion command choice... apparently it was omitted in the original writeup but is one of the options.

So if you want your zealot bubble, at least sinking 200pts into non-objsec cultists is strictly optional.

 

 

After taking a quick look, it looks like a sorcerer (with familiar) casting the malefic primaris on 4 dice has a ~83.4% chance to succeed, but a ~72.2% chance to perils. Geesh. Maybe assign summoning duty to a cheap level 1...

[totgeboren]

From a points efficiency point of view, including 1-3 summoners in the form of some barebone lvl 1 psykers with a familiar sounds rather efficient. They can only cast one power each per turn, but they only need to summon once to make their points back. So really, if they die from perils after their second summon, they would have done really good anyway.

The thing to remember about the WB rules is that they are without a doubt powerful. Since you can easily include up to 6 Sorcerers, there is no need to beef up your dudes, and perils doesn't matter since just one summon is enough to earn your points back. Harnessing on a 3+ gives you a high chance of getting two summons off in a single turn (if you have 7-8 warp charge). That's up to 200 pts per turn extra for a 150 pts investment (2 sorcs). The +d6 warp charge relic really pushes this home.

I suspect GW tried to give WB rules that would produce armies consisting of lots of marines, cultists and Daemons. Points are only enough to buy cultists and marines, meaning you get Daemons for free. So to balance that, the basic dudes would need to be a bit weaker than what other legions get.

I think my issue is that I will probably never really accept 'free points' as a valid mechanism. If you balance by free points, that means that by definition you have simply overpriced something else.

 

Of course, this might be semi-balanced internally compared to the other legions. I mean, if our ability causes just one more summon to succeed, that's 100 pts extra for us. 2 Summons where our 3+ summoning succeeds but a different legions 4+ would have failed, 200 pts extra. Where I play, getting 200 pts extra is a big boost.

However, we would only be doing what every loyalist chapter can already do (and do at least as good using the Librarius conclave!), and they get full chapter tactics on top of it.

Edited December 5, 2016 by totgeboren

[tikhunt]

Does anyone want to post pics of their heretical summoners to inspire the rest of us?

[totgeboren]

Here is mine at least, with his cute little familiar.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i95/totgeboren40/Daemons/darkapostle007-1-1.jpg

 

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i95/totgeboren40/Daemons/7ebb1112-85cd-4aca-9045-23fdbfa132fa.jpg

 

And I might use this guy too. He is really a Squat Dark Mechanicus Magus Biologis which I used for a ZM Campaign (fighting Nids!), but it feels a bit sad to have him collecting dust. So why not use have him give my Sorcerer some aid? A few tips and tricks straight from the forges of Ghalmek on how to control daemons might be just what he needs to not have his head explode all the time?

Edited December 5, 2016 by totgeboren

[Lord Asvaldir]

Is that first picture a converted blood angels model? Turned out pretty good. 

 

A whole bunch of summoning sorcerers might be the way to go, I'm not sure how I'd deploy them though besides maybe just throwing them all on bikes so they can hide somewhere. Footslogging just doesn't seem like the best choice, if they were with one say big unit of footslogging CSM that unit would be targeted by every gun on the other side. 

[totgeboren]

Yeah, he is based on Mephiston. Thanks!

 

I'm thinking that you will likely need a CAD for FW stuff and single vehicles, so you will then need two cultists to fill out the Troop requirement. Make the squads at least 20 man strong, put a Sorcerer in each squad and just run and claim objectives. That way the enemy has to target them if he want to stop the summoning, meaning the cultists wont just be wasted points. If you get Sacrifice the cultists are really handy for turning into Heralds too.

After they die from Perils you might still have some ObSec cultists left, which could be useful if what Veterannoob said about objectives for us is true "tactical objectives are higher reward for them, I think."

 

Of course, for those points you might as well buy a LatD formation, but then you wont have the points for any vehicles. But lots of marines, recycling cultists and summoned daemons might make a solid horde army anyway, especially if we are focused on objectives. Getting board control with that kind of army might be doable, combined with the adaptability of being able to call on the daemons you need during play.

Edited December 5, 2016 by totgeboren

[Lord Asvaldir]

Cultists seem like an excellent meat shield for sorcerers, I just imagine it would be hard to fit in lots of chaos marines and cultists along with the sorcs you need for summoning daemons, and that's not even taking into account points for vehicles. It sure would really help if we could use just the single daemon engine auxiliary choice, being forced to take a warpsmith if you want any vehicles in our decurion is a huge pain. His pts nearly pay for 2 level one sorcerers, which would be far better. 

[Canadian_F_H]

Hey. So, traitor legions.

 

The new suppliment seems good for the demonic summoning side of the WB legion. But maybe I missed something but it doesn't really seem to show them pushing massive cult uprisings from preaching the primordial truth...

 

Thoughts?

 

I still plan to build a WB 40k army, but I feel my vision for them may not be quite what it's meant to be.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Seems like GW decided mass cult uprisings was the Alpha Legion's thing, so they got all the bonuses for using cultists. That being said, it's not like we can't utilize cultists. The Lost and the Damned formation is actually pretty good for utilizing cultists, and the dark apostle isn't really a tax since his buff is actually pretty useful for big cultists blocks, possibly with MoK. The only downside is that you are forced to take 4 cultist units, which is a bit much, but you could always revert back to CAD if that's too much. I actually plan on using an idea totgeborn proposed-taking a few level one sorcerers and hiding them in cultists blocks, so I can utilize summoning and have a nice meatshield for the sorcs. 

 

Then there's the option of bringing a whole detachment of cultists by using the renegades&heretics army list, which opens up a lot more options for the cultist element of your army. The only real downside to that is R&H is that to really utilize that army, your warlord needs to be from the renegade army, which doesn't make sense fluff wise and means you can't use the WB warlord traits. Still unlocking laser rapier batteries and wyverns is pretty handy.