++ The Dark Council - A Word Bearers Community ++

[Plaguecaster]

Since we can take lesser daemons as troops I'm highly tempted to start a word bearers force with lots of lesser daemons as core then have a couple of kharybdis filled with possessed in true Gal Vorbak style possibly havocs crammed in as well so the havocs pop out unleash full Dakka before the possessed get stuck in :D

[Panzer]

Since we can take lesser daemons as troops I'm highly tempted to start a word bearers force with lots of lesser daemons as core then have a couple of kharybdis filled with possessed in true Gal Vorbak style possibly havocs crammed in as well so the havocs pop out unleash full Dakka before the possessed get stuck in

We already could do that with the Index tho. Nothing changed. The Daemons in the Chaos Codex didn't get any new faction keywords.

[Plaguecaster]

Wait so if I took the daemons as troops would it still count as a word bearers detachment???? Never been a fan of the weak fleshy cultists to be fair

[Leonite]

You can't summon Warptalons etc.

A Daemon unit needs the Daemonic Ritual special rule to get summoned.

... so you can't.

 

Ok, fair enough. That removes that angle for those, still doesn't negate my argument on the end with standard Daemons and the like. Summoning without worrying about Mortal Wounds is nice.

[Panzer]

Wait so if I took the daemons as troops would it still count as a word bearers detachment???? Never been a fan of the weak fleshy cultists to be fair

No it wouldn't unless there's a new army-wide special rule we've missed so far.

[Plaguecaster]

 

Wait so if I took the daemons as troops would it still count as a word bearers detachment???? Never been a fan of the weak fleshy cultists to be fair

No it wouldn't unless there's a new army-wide special rule we've missed so far.

Bugger oh well I'd still run heaps of Possessed since they finally gained almost true Gal Vorbak status :D

[Panzer]

 

 

Wait so if I took the daemons as troops would it still count as a word bearers detachment???? Never been a fan of the weak fleshy cultists to be fair

No it wouldn't unless there's a new army-wide special rule we've missed so far.

 

Bugger oh well I'd still run heaps of Possessed since they finally gained almost true Gal Vorbak status

 

Haha same. I already plan to play a Rhino filled with 9 Possessed and Fabius Bile just for teh lulz.

[Leonite]

I think when I get home I might end up making some Possessed... I already used the regular Possessed parts to make "Flying Possessd (Warp Talons) sooo...

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah possessed seem decent enough that I won't feel like it's a hinderance to take them anymore which is great. 

 

I still can't figure out if summoning is worth using though. My main issue is summoning really better than taking an extra detachment of daemons? Because if I add in a cheap battalion of daemons with 2 heralds and some basic lesser daemon troops, that's giving me +3CP and I'm not wasting a single point on my "summoning reserve". Now comparing that to summoning, with summoning I do gain the great ability to pick and choose what I want to bring (reliant on the models I own of course), so I can bring different units to each game, but because of the random roll you can never be sure how many pts you should leave in your "summoning reserve." What I probably need to do is just grab a few more daemon units and experiment. 

 

The other thing I'd like to think about is a short list of what to summon. All of the lesser daemons seem valuable in certain situations, the only issue is for 5 power you get  10, for 10 power  you get 20. 5 is easy to make on 3d6, 10 is just above average, though that is where our strategem comes in handy because if I read it right, you don't need to reroll all of the dice, you can choose to only reroll some which makes getting a ten easy. Heralds also seem pretty handy, but because of their low power rating it would be annoying to say roll an 11 and summon a 3 power unit, so not sure if heralds are worth it when you could just grab another 10-20 lesser daemons. 

 

For elite/FA/HS daemons, couple thing stand out to me. Bloodcrushers actually seem brutal to me this edition, for 8 power I don't think you could go wrong with summoning 3. Summoning 6 is 15 power so that's probably too difficult. Fiends as well look handy since they prevent enemy units from falling back, in the right game against a shooting oriented army that's golden. Soulgrinder at 11 power is also a pretty reasonable bet with our rerolls, might consider picking one of those up. Beyond that though nothing really strikes me, though I don't actually have any experience using daemons yet in 8th. Maybe nurglings or brimstone horrors cheap objective holders. Still leaves me a bit clueless as to how many pts to put aside for summoning. 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

You can't summon Warptalons etc.

A Daemon unit needs the Daemonic Ritual special rule to get summoned.

 

Considering Warp Talon have jump packs what would be the point in summoning them when they can deep strike?

[Leonite]

 

You can't summon Warptalons etc.

A Daemon unit needs the Daemonic Ritual special rule to get summoned.

 

Considering Warp Talon have jump packs what would be the point in summoning them when they can deep strike?

 

Versatility.

[Ancient Terror]

The only use I can see for summoning is if you build a list up to about 10-15% points less than the value you're playing at, then fill in the rest based on need in-game. But, considering how hilariously cheap a detachment of allied Daemons can be, that would be a very limited use case. If you can drop a squad and get sufficient points to field a proper detachment, I don't see what summoning would give you, given how random it can be. Tailoring a small detachment should beat summoning every time, esp. considering those command points you'd be spending on summoning to make it safe. The new stratagems are really potent. Seems shameful to waste points on something you can (almost) do before the game to the same effect.

 

I wonder, though... RAW, would an allied daemons force need to use the index with the higher points costs for lesser daemons, or can they also use the datasheets from Codex: CSM? If it's the former, I could see that being a temporary use case. At least until daemons get their own codex.

 

I hope summoning gets a small buff at some point. It's a really neat mechanic in itself.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah that's my thinking at this point, why spend CPs to summon units when I could gain CPs by taking a small daemons detachment? Wouldn't even be that expensive to make a battalion detachment with some cheap heralds and cheap daemon troops.

 

The one other benefit to consider about summoning though is you essentially get to deep strike. 20 bloodletters footslogging up the field isn't as good as summoning 20 that only have an 8" charge thanks to chaos instruments. Still not sure if that benefit is good enough to make me want to use summoning over allied daemons. 

[Panzer]

I just gonna use summoning because it sounds like a fun mechanic and I want to see how my opponents react when they don't exactly know what unit I'll bring. Oh and so that the Daemon unit can't get shot at beforehand as well of course.

[Plaguecaster]

Trust me summoning has its uses and can be quite good especially watching your opponents face when you summon a soul grinder right in front of an enemy squad :D

[Ancient Terror]

Oh, I actually wasn't aware that Daemons lost their mass deep strike capacity, though it makes sense with the design direction of 8th. In that case, summoning does sound like it has a lot of utility even if it's a bit meh on some points. It's at least a tradeoff and not a flat downgrade.

[Gosford]

Oh, I actually wasn't aware that Daemons lost their mass deep strike capacity, though it makes sense with the design direction of 8th. In that case, summoning does sound like it has a lot of utility even if it's a bit meh on some points. It's at least a tradeoff and not a flat downgrade.

Yup, the mystery of what is coming and how close you can position whatever your summoning can be truly terrifying to your opponent. I've summoned in a few games already and I feel going second with a summoner army is best, especially against impetuous players.

[Panzer]

Trust me summoning has its uses and can be quite good especially watching your opponents face when you summon a soul grinder right in front of an enemy squad

Or a Keeper of Secrets...with a Power level of 11 you should be able to summon one most of the time with 3d6.

[Lord Asvaldir]

The mystery element of what you are actually going to summon is a factor in favor of using summoning over taking a detachment of daemons, however in terms of owning enough models for summoning whatever you want can be a bit tougher. I have lots of daemonettes and bloodletters I used for summoning last edition, but that's about it. Are there any daemon units in particular that you guys have found are rather useful for summoning?

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Has anyone been thinking about/made a brigade detachment list? What would your include for the mandatory 3 Elites and 3 Fast Attack? I was considering a helbrute and 2 spawn for the elite. Warp Talons and Raptors actually sound like a pretty decent choice for the FA slots as well. Would it be possible to build a Brigade detachment cheap enough to leave about 500 pts left over for summoning in a 2000 pt list? 

[Ancient Terror]

Has anyone been thinking about/made a brigade detachment list? What would your include for the mandatory 3 Elites and 3 Fast Attack? I was considering a helbrute and 2 spawn for the elite. Warp Talons and Raptors actually sound like a pretty decent choice for the FA slots as well. Would it be possible to build a Brigade detachment cheap enough to leave about 500 pts left over for summoning in a 2000 pt list? 

 

I was thinking about something similar for Alpha Legion - just investing a lot in good elites/fast attack units instead of leaving points for summoning. If you stuff the troops slots with cheap cultist squads and take spawn, it should be doable. Main question would be what you're taking to deal with vehicles in such a list.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

Has anyone been thinking about/made a brigade detachment list? What would your include for the mandatory 3 Elites and 3 Fast Attack? I was considering a helbrute and 2 spawn for the elite. Warp Talons and Raptors actually sound like a pretty decent choice for the FA slots as well. Would it be possible to build a Brigade detachment cheap enough to leave about 500 pts left over for summoning in a 2000 pt list? 

 

I was thinking about something similar for Alpha Legion - just investing a lot in good elites/fast attack units instead of leaving points for summoning. If you stuff the troops slots with cheap cultist squads and take spawn, it should be doable. Main question would be what you're taking to deal with vehicles in such a list.

 

I mean,  honestly, the things you would be summoning aren't worth many points anyway as the higher point units are usually too high in power points to realistically plan for summoning. The hard part of the Brigade in my opinion is filling out the compulsory HS slots in a cheap enough fashion. I guess havocs with speical weapons could do the trick. I definitely think I'd bring 1 Predator just because they are so good for CSM. 

[Zectz]

Spawn are cheap to fill out fast attack slots. For heavy support Rapier battery's are really effective and cheap for what they do. Bring a couple + Predator/s is nice a combination. Havocs as well, if you're just looking to fill the slots and save some points you can bring 2 squads with 2 heavy weapons each instead of 4. This also spreads out your weapons helping target saturation and giving more wounds for your opponent to chew through.

 

Easily doable. I just think people make the mistake in going for brigade lists is not having enough armour or tough units. They don't to spam cheap small units to fill the slots and meet the requirements but lack anything potent. Go for those cheap cultists and buff then up with the dark apostle with increased range from WB trait. But don't forgot to bring those Las Predators for example.

[ChaosReigns]

So I played another Fate of Konor game today, and it was a hard fought battle, but at the last my Word Bearers had the victory, although in the end all that remained of my host was my Chaos Lord, the Biker Champion of his retinue, and a handful of Chaos Marines. Games of 8th edition sure are bloody!

 

Anyway, that being said, I wanted to share some observations with you guys. My opponent was kind enough to let me use the Word Bearers' Legion Trait, unique warlord trait and unique relic even though I haven't had a chance to pick up the codex yet. First of all, I think that our Legion Trait is useful if not terribly exciting. It came in handy two times during the game when I rolled poorly for my morale test. Is it as powerful as some of the other Legion Traits and Chapter Tactics? Well no, but it is nice to have nonetheless. I actually got slay the Warlord because of it in the end, since the three Chaos Marines who brought down my opponent's Inquisitor with some very lucky dice would have run off the table if weren't for the re-roll after the unit got mauled by the Inquisitor's thunder hammer and power fist toting retinue.

 

Secondly, the Voice of Lorgar warlord trait is, while again not particularly flashy, very useful. It allowed me to keep my Chaos Lord centrally located and have a number of units benefiting from his aura. Even something as simple as re-rolling ones to hit starts to become impactful when most of the army is doing it over the course of an entire game. I want to run a human wave style army list sometime with sixty or seventy Cultists and one or two big squads of twenty Chaos Marines with a Dark Apostle as my warlord using the Voice of Lorgar trait. I suspect that would be a lot of fun to play even if it's not the most competitive build possible.

 

Lastly, I have a character who's the senior Dark Apostle of my host lore-wise (so he's equipped with a crozius) but is a Chaos Lord crunch-wise since, of course, Dark Apostles aren't able to take bikes. At any rate, I used the Cursed Crozius relic on him today, and my first impression is that it's pretty phenomenal, certainly much better than a power fist. He single-handedly slew the Inquisitor's whole retinue, mulched a ten man Tactical Squad over two fight phases and then proceeded to bludgeon a squad of Deathwatch Veterans after most of his Biker retinue had been mowed down by a frag cannon and special ammunition bolters. Re-rolling to hit and to wound in combination with Death to the False Emperor is both pretty vicious and ends up being surprisingly inexpensive in terms of points considering that you're replacing a standard power maul.  

Edited August 12, 2017 by ChaosReigns

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I'm going to be starting this edition with Word Bearers as my main Army to see how Nu-CSM plays. I normally like to focus on fluff for my list builds.. anyway to do that and end up with something competitive along the way? 

 

About reinforcements... If I summon in a Herald of Tzeentch how do I pick Psychic powers for that unit? 

 

Anyone planning on including a Helforged Levi in their Army? I am super tempted!