Let's Talk Custodes

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

But they don't invade. That's the thing. They're not massed troops bringing worlds to heel for the Emperor. They're like a super elite special forces unit and the secret service rolled into one, and to use the analogy from Heathens earlier about the lions and hyenas, if they're caught in a situation that doesn't favor their tactics they'll probably get wiped out, but I can promise you they'll have the tactical acumen to choose an advantageous position to play to their strengths if that situation should arise.

 

Blood Games showed us a terrifying new side to the Custodes where they don't always show up in their shiny golden armor to politely deliver a message from the Emperor. No, they'll disguise themselves and infiltrate to achieve their goals. Two Custodes to bring down the leadership of a super-hive, by the way.

[Wade Garrett]

I'd say the Custodes have more in common with bodyguard formations like the U.S. Secret Service or (obviously) the Praetorian Guard of the Roman Emperors than (insert warrior group here).

 

Their job, the whole reason they exist, isn't to fight and win on the battlefield, it's to keep the Emperor upright and breathing.

 

Something they ultimately failed at. :p

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

No, that failure lies squarely on the head of the Emperor.

 

*edit* It just came to me, who the Custodes compare to in our time:

 

http://i.imgur.com/jfEgc5m.jpg

 

Tauromachian. Amon Tauromachian.

[Marshal Rohr]

And like James Bond, Amon Tauromachian has dozens of other names attached to his.

[Daemon2027]

 

 

 

I guess the best thing I could think of as a modern point of reference would be the movie 300. The Spartans being the Custodes

Spartans were all about discipline and cohesion. They were the ultimate soldiers, not the ultimate warriors

 

I think the Custodes are more comparable to Samurai whereas the Astartes are comparable to the Roman legions. Samurai had elite weapons (the katana) and focused quite a bit on dueling

I think what Heathens meant was the Spartans of the movie 300, as opposed to the Spartans of real life.

 

I think Wade may have it with the Roman Praetorians though, they start off as a bodyguard, grow to a larger elite force while keeping the bodyguard duties, and then take on a political role, which I think they do post heresy.

[Majorbookworm]

But aren't there points in the fluff where they do fight conventional engagements for the Emperor? The Emperor directly lead forces for most of the Crusade. While he would have spent some of that time with a Primarch and their legion, especially when they had only just found one, but he had his own forces, and the artwork of Custodes dreads and jetbikes in the fleild seems to suggest that they were his personal unit.

[Daemon2027]

Yeah. Thats why i said they grow to a larger elite force where they can fight in larger wars. Like the Roman Praetorians. I doubt they fight without human auxillia or legion though. They are still warriors above soldiers, elites, not line infantry. To use the animal comparison, lions hunt in packs, but fight alone.

 

They fight in force in the webway war, but then they have the Sisters to help, and thats not a conventional war.

[Hyaenidae]

Their job, the whole reason they exist, isn't to fight and win on the battlefield, it's to keep the Emperor upright and breathing.

 

My point, though, is that to keep the Emperor upright and breathing, they have to win on the battlefield. Which is why I used the Spartans of 300 as a very rough example. Acting as a bodyguard to the President is wildly different than acting as a bodyguard to someone on a living, breathing battlefield who is partaking on the field on the front of the lines.

 

Would we say that the Phoenix Guard or the Deathshroud are not effective warriors because they're on bodyguard duty? Heck no, they're the best of their breed. The Custodians are just as veteran and war-worn as any Astartes, and their breed only recently quit the field after Horus became Warmaster.

 

Mock their pretty armour all you want. I will not underestimate a foe who has faced a hundred battles against the most elite xenos and non-compliant mortals that mankind united has ever faced.

[Wade Garrett]

That all depends on how much the Emperor led from the front during the Great Crusade.

 

It happened on occasion, true enough, but my personal opinion is that the Emperor would be a commander more in the vein of Guilliman, Lorgar, Fulgrim or Perturabo, who seem to subscribe to the idea that "A general who casts aside his scepter to pick up a sword becomes a private" than someone who was always at the forefront doling out and receiving blows like Mortarion or Russ.

[Hyaenidae]

Wolf of Ash and Fire, and After Desh'ea would state otherwise. The Emperor simply applies his abilities as needed, where they're needed. Khârn even sounds like he holds a high level of respect for the Custodes skills.

 

Khârn.

[Wade Garrett]

I don't have my copy of Tales of Heresy with me, but off the top of my head I recall Khârn being awed by the Emperor smiting the witch worms out of existence, and the only mention of the Custodes Angron noting in passing that he slew some of the Emperor's kin guard. But I could be wrong there.

 

And I'm iffy on basing what the Emperor always did on two stories.

 

After all, in Know No Fear and Betrayer Guilliman leaves his subordinates to run the larger battle while he charges straight for the enemy standards intent on throttling the opposing general(s) to death with his own two hands.

 

I wouldn't say that's Rob's usual M.O., though.

[Daemon2027]

Khârn would respect a warrior though.

 

Khârn (the other one) telling Angron about the Emperor at war on After Desh'ea is one of my favourite parts of the Heresy series so far

 

Wade, they are not due to the emotional aspect but then Guiliman would know he is generaly the most powerful warrior on a battlefield so going for the enemy standard, a physical representation of morale, is a tactic he may do.

[Marshal Rohr]

A general doesn't fight from the front because he would just be one more rifle. The Emperor would never just be one more rifle.

[Hyaenidae]

Oy.

 

My point is that, during the Great Crusade, the Emperor and the Primarchs (barring those who have Nails tickling their brains) would only take to the field when absolutely necessary. For every time one of the Primarchs/Emps actually needed to do so, there must have been 20 more compliance's that either went peacefully, or were easily entrusted to their subordinates. 

 

Their bodyguards were never less elite, or less capable, because of this. 

[Wade Garrett]

No, the Emperor is more like "just another lmperator class Titan" than a rifle.

 

But the Emperor (or any Primarch) isn't a huge threat because of his ability to personally wreck faces.

 

What makes them dangerous is a mind that can coordinate a world (if not system) spanning battle down to the smallest detail, while accessing tactical and strategic options faster than any cognition engine the Mechanicum ever created.

 

What makes Perturabo (for instance) the great destroyer of fortresses isn't that he can pull their walls down with his bare hands (although in many cases he could) but his ability to coordinate the churning masses of men and metal sworn to his service into a finely tuned war machine that is capable of more destruction than any one Primarch or Titan.

 

And it becomes more difficult to do that if he's down in the mud personally shooting Ork Boyz off the barb wire in every battle.

[Daemon2027]

But the bests general knows when it is time to lead from the front. That final push. To take to the field and win the vital part of the battle.

[A D-B]

A DB has been adamant that they are not superior to space marines, just different. If a Custode can lay out a space marine in a one on one fight, that doesn't mean a space marine is inferior, just trained differently. Space marines fight more than Custodes, which makes me wonder how useful Custodes would be as anything but fighters. They would lack tactical and strategic experience, no matter how well educated. Classic 2nd Lieutenant Syndrome. Sure he can tell you about how Patton broke through to Bastogne, but he might get lost on a simple land nav exercise.

 

Oh, they're totally superior to Space Marines. The First Heretic makes it pretty clear when one of them believes he can take Lorgar and several Word Bearers. And, in his defence, he takes the Word Bearers pretty damn quickly.

 

Trying to kill Lorgar was probably always a matter of duty rather than actual optimism, mind you.

 

Dan's Blood Games makes a case for a closer relationship between Custodian and Space Marine capability, but I wouldn't stick too closely to that in terms of expectation. Even Blood Games has two Custodians believing they can handle Dorn anyway, so it's not perfectly clear cut even back then.

...holy accidental threadomancy, Batman.

[Landrick]

 

A DB has been adamant that they are not superior to space marines, just different. If a Custode can lay out a space marine in a one on one fight, that doesn't mean a space marine is inferior, just trained differently. Space marines fight more than Custodes, which makes me wonder how useful Custodes would be as anything but fighters. They would lack tactical and strategic experience, no matter how well educated. Classic 2nd Lieutenant Syndrome. Sure he can tell you about how Patton broke through to Bastogne, but he might get lost on a simple land nav exercise.

 

Oh, they're totally superior to Space Marines. The First Heretic makes it pretty clear when one of them believes he can take Lorgar and several Word Bearers. And, in his defence, he takes the Word Bearers pretty damn quickly.

 

Trying to kill Lorgar was probably always a matter of duty rather than actual optimism, mind you.

 

Dan's Blood Games makes a case for a closer relationship between Custodian and Space Marine capability, but I wouldn't stick too closely to that in terms of expectation. Even Blood Games has two Custodians believing they can handle Dorn anyway, so it's not perfectly clear cut even back then.

...holy accidental threadomancy, Batman.

 

and it will get 1k+ new views b/c A D-B commented about Custodes :P

 

...thats why i clicked

[Legio Draconis]

Don't the custodes also have their own titans at Ulanor?

[b1soul]

I thought Vendatha's "belief" that he could take Lorgar was either just dedication to his mission (no matter the odds) or delusion...the former makes more sense to me

[A D-B]

I thought Vendatha's "belief" that he could take Lorgar was either just dedication to his mission (no matter the odds) or delusion...the former makes more sense to me

 

I reckon so, yeah. I like to think he came across that way.

 

But in terms of Space Marines and Custodians being equal we have:

 

• That mention in a short story.

 

In terms of them not being equal, we have:

 

• That same short story having two Custodians perfectly reasonable and calm about facing a primarch.
• Them looking a little bit taller and broader than Space Marines in the artwork.
• Valdor being the size of the smallest primarch.
• One of them facing Lorgar and 3-4 Word Bearers alone.
• The Gal Vorbak taking out an outnumbered demi-squad of Custodians, rather than regular Space Marines doing it.

...and so on.

[b1soul]

I agree with the point that 1v1 a Custodes should be "better" than an SM. Even Blood Games says they're slightly larger and stronger. The question fans will return to is "by how much?"

 

My interpretation of Blood Games is that Amon and Haedo wouldn't bat an eyelid at the prospect of taking on Dorn. I didn't think the two actually thought they'd win...or maybe they did because of how dedicated they are to enforcing the Emperor's will...but objectively, Dorn would cream them. That was my take. I never subscribed to the idea of Custodes as mini-primarchs. I don`t think any authour has portrayed them that way.

 

In First Heretic, you have Vendatha (who seems to be an elite/highly skilled Custodian) kill three marines before a fourth one stops his killing streak by shooting his face. I thought that was a nice balance...but Vendatha, for all his prowess, still struck me as vastly inferior to a primarch (I can't imagine any primarch being struck down by a marine after killing only 3...absent some highly funky circumstances)

[A D-B]

I agree with the point that 1v1 a Custodes should be "better" than an SM. Even Blood Games says they're slightly larger and stronger. The question fans will return to is "by how much?"

 

My interpretation of Blood Games is that Amon and Haedo wouldn't bat an eyelid at the prospect of taking on Dorn. I didn't think the two actually thought they'd win...or maybe they did because of how dedicated they are to enforcing the Emperor's will...but objectively, Dorn would cream them. That was my take. I never subscribed to the idea of Custodes as mini-primarchs. I don`t think any authour has portrayed them that way.

 

In First Heretic, you have Vendatha (who seems to be an elite/highly skilled Custodian) kill three marines before a fourth one stops his killing streak by shooting his face. I thought that was a nice balance...but Vendatha, for all his prowess, still struck me as vastly inferior to a primarch (I can't imagine any primarch being struck down by a marine after killing only 3...absent some highly funky circumstances)

 

Sounds about right to me, yep-yep.

 

With, of course, the usual amount of variation in circumstance and individual skill. Which always renders these debates meaningless, but whatever. WHATEVER, DAMN YOU ALL.

[depthcharge12]

World Eaters beat Custodes like paper beats rock ;)

 

They evidently have AP2 fists with instant death. It's a special rule called "spine-ripper."

[Sol_Invictus]

 

I agree with the point that 1v1 a Custodes should be "better" than an SM. Even Blood Games says they're slightly larger and stronger. The question fans will return to is "by how much?"

 

My interpretation of Blood Games is that Amon and Haedo wouldn't bat an eyelid at the prospect of taking on Dorn. I didn't think the two actually thought they'd win...or maybe they did because of how dedicated they are to enforcing the Emperor's will...but objectively, Dorn would cream them. That was my take. I never subscribed to the idea of Custodes as mini-primarchs. I don`t think any authour has portrayed them that way.

 

In First Heretic, you have Vendatha (who seems to be an elite/highly skilled Custodian) kill three marines before a fourth one stops his killing streak by shooting his face. I thought that was a nice balance...but Vendatha, for all his prowess, still struck me as vastly inferior to a primarch (I can't imagine any primarch being struck down by a marine after killing only 3...absent some highly funky circumstances)

 

Sounds about right to me, yep-yep.

 

With, of course, the usual amount of variation in circumstance and individual skill. Which always renders these debates meaningless, but whatever. WHATEVER, DAMN YOU ALL.

 

 

I think that's exactly it. I'd expect the weakest Custodes to be stronger and tougher than your average Joe Astartes but also for there to always be exceptions. I'd be willing to guess that there are certain Custodes who could probably go toe to toe with some of the weaker Primarchs and I'd wholly expect that when rules come out for Valdor that he will be up there with the mid-range Primarchs. Does that mean that all Custodes could take on a Primarch? No, but I think there are probably some who could.