b1soul Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I would disagree...I don't think Valdor would be primarch level. If Custodes variation is similar to SM variation...the most powerful Custodes would still fall short of a primarch. Vendatha is a highly skilled Custodes and he only takes 3 Word Bearers with him. You're telling me Valdor is primarch level (e.g. carve through dozens of SM with relative ease)? Sounds off to me Of course, this is my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol_Invictus Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 But I don't think Custodes variation is quite as consistent as Astartes variation. As I understand it the process is much less uniform so it seems reasonable to me that there would be more variation, allowing for particularly powerful individuals that could possibly rival Primarchs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 IIRC Valdor Duel'd Horus to a standstill did he not? or possibly beat him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomMarine Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 @cage alwalys assumed they where the custodes equivalents of a breacher as when u invade a ship u bring breachers and terminators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_out Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 This topic makes me sad we don't have rules or models for custodes. I think hand to hand they should be able to screw up just about any average marine, but isn't that the point? Why would the Emperor want a bunch of sub par fighters as his elite personal bodyguard? But then there's tiers to this :cuss: lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 IIRC Valdor Duel'd Horus to a standstill did he not? or possibly beat him? Wasn't that unconfirmed? It sounds familiar but I don't think anyone can source it. I still think that this is no easy rock, paper, scissors - there are too many variables and the two branches (Astartes and Custodes) do wildly different things. At range, I'd think the Astartes would likely be better than Custodes due to their weaponry and training. Custodes I'd expect to be better up close and personal in tight confines such as the Imperial Palace. Primarchs are still the be all end all of super human engineering. A group of Custodes could possibly hurt a Primarch, but not kill one and stand over them triumphant. Especially when you have things like Angron getting buried under a few stories of concrete, or Lorgar getting a warhound plasma blast to the face, or Guilliman getting ejected into space. I don't think anything short of a plot device or another Primarch could kill a Primarch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 If a space marine can carve a name into a primarchs rotting heart, then by God so can Valdor! At least, in proproganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 If a space marine can carve a name into a primarchs rotting heart, then by God so can Valdor! At least, in proproganda. Lalalala can't hear you. No Ward here thank you kindly! On the same token, it took what, 109 Grey Knights in terminator armor to take down Daemon Angron and his heavy metal band? Back in a time where a squad of grey Knights was overkill for retaking a world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 If a space marine can carve a name into a primarchs rotting heart, then by God so can Valdor! At least, in proproganda. Lalalala can't hear you. No Ward here thank you kindly! On the same token, it took what, 109 Grey Knights in terminator armor to take down Daemon Angron and his heavy metal band? Back in a time where a squad of grey Knights was overkill for retaking a world? Lol, that's why I threw in the thing about propaganda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 ADB disagreed with me so hard he raised this thread from the dead :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noigrim Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Forgot about the matrix, as agents they are sworn brothers with everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Forgot about the matrix, as agents they are sworn brothers with everyone Not with the Traitor Legions they Aren't. (or forces containing Traitor Characters at least.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noigrim Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 ah but they could ally with loyalist arimes from the traitor legions just don't put any traitor special characther in it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 But I don't think Custodes variation is quite as consistent as Astartes variation. As I understand it the process is much less uniform so it seems reasonable to me that there would be more variation, allowing for particularly powerful individuals that could possibly rival Primarchs. Yeah...that's why the above is simply my opinion. Corax carves through dozens...no, scores of traitor marines on Istvaan single-handedly...I have a hard time seeing Valdor pulling this off...I don't believe he's quite so potent on Prospero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 My thing about "Those two Custodes sure seemed confident they could take Dorn and Lorgar..." In Unremembered Empire the Ultramarine Legion Master definitely thought he had a shot at soloing Curze. Behold, proof positive that Ultramarine = Primarch in single combat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 There is such a thing as rational irrational confidence Irrational in the sense that I am choosing to believe something false...rational in the sense that I am doing so because I know it boosts my slim chances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noigrim Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 I guess that a custodes would be something like: 5 5 4 4 2 5 2 9 2+ with some sort of anti psyker in the armour spears +1S AP2 and they should have the same bolter as Dorn since in the description it says that it's a custodes bolter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol_Invictus Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Not bad. So are you thinking that non-Terminator Custodes have artificer armor then for the 2+ save? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 My thing about "Those two Custodes sure seemed confident they could take Dorn and Lorgar..." In Unremembered Empire the Ultramarine Legion Master definitely thought he had a shot at soloing Curze. Behold, proof positive that Ultramarine = Primarch in single combat? No, obviously not. And you know that, you lovable goon. Especially when it's just one aspect of a wider body of evidence, as mentioned above. If that was the only point, then sure, it'd have looked hokey. I mean... I could've been clearer, but I'm trying to avoid sounding like a tool. Help me out, man. A blunter approach would've been "Yes, Custodians are superior to Space Marines," said the guy writing the definitive novel about the Emperor and his Custodians, who has also discussed the rules with the people designing the Custodians' rules. But it's toolish to say. So now I blame you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsovitt Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 As I recall from the superb literary work 'The First Heretic' there is the intimation that individually the Custodes are the superior of any Astartes but that in the end they fight as individual warriors whereas Astartes fight as groups and as such on a battlefield the Astartes will always prevail... I think the analogy was that the Custodes were like Lions and the Astartes like hounds... Its like the Roman Legions when fighting against celts/gauls etc - each of these celt warriors needed five feet of space to swing his weapon whereas the roman legionnaire only needs to hold the shield wall and stab forward so for each of these brave strong warriors there are three opponents... When it comes to Custodes vs Primarchs it would depend on the situation in 'The Unremebered Empire' 10 Astartes almost take out Guilliman in a box-fight. There is nothing saying that a single Custodes couldnt kill a primarch in a quick strike although I'd imagine the longer the fight lasts the less chance the Custodes would have as the Primarch is likely to have superior stamina and energy reserves... On another note I recall the original rogue trader Custodes with their bare torsos, tight skinny leggings, capes and laspistol staff... I recall thinking how could they defend the Emperor... Thank goodness for updated fluff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 No, obviously not. And you know that, you lovable goon. Especially when it's just one aspect of a wider body of evidence, as mentioned above. If that was the only point, then sure, it'd have looked hokey. I mean... I could've been clearer, but I'm trying to avoid sounding like a tool. Help me out, man. A blunter approach would've been "Yes, Custodians are superior to Space Marines," said the guy writing the definitive novel about the Emperor and his Custodians, who has also discussed the rules with the people designing the Custodians' rules. But it's toolish to say. So now I blame you. Definitely not toolish...I think everyone agrees that your average Custodian is a superior single combatant to your average SM. I think the question is...how close are Custodians to Primarchs. I'd say not very close Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Like Space Marines, custodes skill is a spectrum. Marines like Sigismund or Sevatar are clearly far better than your average marine. If the spectrum is relatively the same and your basic custodes is a bit better than your basic marine, your exceptional custodes are probably a bit better than your exceptional marines. Though given that marines outnumber custodes by about 2 orders of magnitude, marines will see more outliers at each end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raulmichile Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 I would say that Custodes are better at Kung-fu, but Astartes bring the guns. Close quarters are for Custodes who should beat a Marine the majority of times although with a bit of effort. The thing is that as Marines are "real" soldiers compared to "bodyguard" Custodes they have the equipment and training to outmatch them in other combat situations, even though Custodes still can be regarded as "genetically" better than Marines. They are just not engineered for the same purpose. The Emperor kept his state of the art creations for him while the heavy lifting of the war is left to the mass produced but still more than great products, which were created for that purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 I just hope when FW does the Custodes, that they make the ones in boss terminator armor from the art. Especially that one with the "flamer pike" weapon...oooh that weapon just makes me all sorts of hot and bothered :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 What I want to know is, how close were the Thunder Warriors ability to the Custodes. I'll go back to lurking mode now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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