BA Today

[Damon Nightman]

He declared the charge against the tacticals only, killed them, then consolidated into the furioso, then popped the strat murdering the furioso, and then he consolidated another 3 inches

 

And he said the fight twice strat was FaQed to be 2 command points instead of 3

Edited November 15, 2018 by Brother Lemartes

[Leonaides]

You were had regretfully. And you would have had a chance to interrupt before he could fight again as thats done at the end of the cc phase after everyone else has attacked. Tho tbh your furioso would have had a chance to attack normally before the wulfen attacked again anyway.

[Damon Nightman]

I get got a lot it seems..

 

Would you or anyone be so kind to breakdown exactly what he did incorrectly?

 

It sounds like he shouldn't have been able to attack the dread after consolidating because he did not declare the initial charge against the dread (thus avoiding frag cannon overwatch)? Rules wise, you can't attack any unit in the fight phase that you did not declare a charge against?

 

Am I understanding correctly?

 

Edit: I really need a rulebook but won't spend $60 on one that includes the dark Imperium story I won't read...

Edited November 15, 2018 by Brother Lemartes

[Jolemai]

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/warhammer_40000_space_wolves_en-1.pdf

 

Unless I'm mistaken, there's nothing there about a stratagem being reduced in command points.

 

Furthermore, I would recommend viewing the SW stratagems; our fight twice stratagem is Infantry and Biker units only...

[Damon Nightman]

Yeah! I just noticed that! I am assuming wulfen are not infantry?

 

Thanks for all the help friends!

[Jolemai]

I get got a lot it seems..

 

Would you or anyone be so kind to breakdown exactly what he did incorrectly?

 

It sounds like he shouldn't have been able to attack the dread after consolidating because he did not declare the initial charge against the dread (thus avoiding frag cannon overwatch)? Rules wise, you can't attack any unit in the fight phase that you did not declare a charge against?

 

Am I understanding correctly?

 

Edit: I really need a rulebook but won't spend $60 on one that includes the dark Imperium story I won't read...

 

This is correct. Basic rules (i.e. no missions, play styles, etc) can be found here:

 

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Battle-Primer-2017-ENG

Yeah! I just noticed that! I am assuming wulfen are not infantry?

 

Thanks for all the help friends!

 

Sorry, I've misread that. For some reasons I thought you'd said Wulfen Dreadnought...

 

[Damon Nightman]

Awesome, thank you all!

 

No worries, Jol. I appreciate the help.

 

My buddy wasn't trying to get over on me necessarily. The first thing he said was "I have no idea why you haven't been doing this with your DC for the last year" as he consolidated into the furioso. He just switches armies every other month and has no idea what they do generally (all while complaining my BA are just soooo good, marines +1).

[Jolemai]

• You can only declare a charge against a unit/units within 12" (regardless of whether or note you can roll further i,e DoA)
• Each "target" can then overwatch
• Should your unit survive, you do your charge roll and are free to engage anything within that range
• Repeat the above steps with other charging units. Once all charges have been made, your opponent may perform a Heroic Intervention with his characters*
• Now the Fight Phase begins. You select (i.e activate) a unit that has charged, pile in up to 3" and complete the fight phase for that unit**
• Now your opponent can use the Counter-Offensive stratagem (i.e interrupt) on any unit in combat*** - and only once in Matched Play
• Once all charging units have attacked, starting with you (as it's your turn), you fight any existing battles
• End of phase stratagems/abilities happen now

So in the above, the Wulfen charged, wiped and consolidated into your Furioso. The Furioso then gets to attack back. The Wulfen can only attack it (or anything else within 3" pile in) when the fight again stratagem is played if it was an original target and if there is enough CP to do so.

 

* Heroic Intervention can be done whether or not any charges have been made

** This includes consolidation, which moves you closer to enemy models. If that puts you into 1" with another enemy unit they get to attack you back!

*** Always fight first units are eligible to go here, they alternate with your charging units

[Jolemai]

Not perfect, but it helps writing it down :)

 

I had a game against Black Legion where my DCD, with the help of Vengeance of Sanguinius (exploding dice on 4+ against BL) smooshed a Chaos TDA Squad, consolidated into Abaddon, and proceeded to instagib him - both my opponent and I even looked at the card before I did it but we were just caught up in the excitement! It was only afterwards that it was pointed out that having not targetted Abaddon (he was 13" away originally) and the fact that I was using a Dreadnought, meant that I had accidentally cheated my opponent. I still owe him a pint tbf...

[Damon Nightman]

That definitely helps a lot! You truly are a great Reclusiarch ;)

 

I actually remember reading (most of) that battle report when you posted it! Abaddon had it coming

[Indefragable]

That's why using a unit with The Angel's Wing (face it, probably Captain Smash) to declare charges against "all eligible targets" is so useful.

[Majkhel]

 

• You can only declare a charge against a unit/units within 12" (regardless of whether or note you can roll further i,e DoA)
• Each "target" can then overwatch
• Should your unit survive, you do your charge roll and are free to engage anything within that range
• Repeat the above steps with other charging units. Once all charges have been made, your opponent may perform a Heroic Intervention with his characters*
• Now the Fight Phase begins. You select (i.e activate) a unit that has charged, pile in up to 3" and complete the fight phase for that unit**
• Now your opponent can use the Counter-Offensive stratagem (i.e interrupt) on any unit in combat*** - and only once in Matched Play
• Once all charging units have attacked, starting with you (as it's your turn), you fight any existing battles
• End of phase stratagems/abilities happen now

So in the above, the Wulfen charged, wiped and consolidated into your Furioso. The Furioso then gets to attack back. The Wulfen can only attack it (or anything else within 3" pile in) when the fight again stratagem is played if it was an original target and if there is enough CP to do so.

 

* Heroic Intervention can be done whether or not any charges have been made

** This includes consolidation, which moves you closer to enemy models. If that puts you into 1" with another enemy unit they get to attack you back!

*** Always fight first units are eligible to go here, they alternate with your charging units

 

About your point 3: I would make it clear that a charging unit can indeed engage any unit within that distance only if they were a declared target of the charge (Rulebook, p.182, point 4.). This is important because a unit cannot finish its charge move within 1" of a unit that as not its charge target. Up yo a point where if it is impossible to avoid, the charge fails (the same page and point in the Rulebook)

 

The point regarding fighting twice was addressed in the Rulebook FAQ:

Q: If a unit that can fight twice in the Fight phase charges one enemy unit and destroys it during their first ‘fight’ in the subsequent Fight phase, and then consolidates into a second enemy unit, can they then attack that unit during their second ‘fight’?

A: The charging unit can only make attacks against the second unit if it also declared a charge against it in its charge phase.

 

I took the liberty of underlining those words as they are the key here: the source of the attacks does not matter (stratagem, ability, relic). Unit can only be attacked after consolidation if it was a declared target for a charge during the charge phase.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Majkhel

[Panzer]

Can you use the strat to allow a unit to fight twice after the unit consisted into another unit?

 

For example, a squad of wulfen charge and massacre my tactical marines. The squad then consolidates into my furioso dread behind the recently deceased tactical squad. The player pops the fight twice strat and murders my furioso as well (and then consolidated into another unit).

 

Is that technically legal? If so, can I pop the interupt strat to fight with my furioso before the wulfen strike? Or is it too late to interupt?

 

Did I mention I hate space wolves?

In risk of being redundant, the reason why the Wulfen couldn't use their attack twice stratagem against the unit they consolidated in to is because the core rules actively limit a unit that has charged this turn to be only allowed to attack the units it declared a charge against.

 

The only way he could use the stratagem to attack a unit he consolidated in to is by 1) declaring a charge against both units or 2) already being in fight with the first unit so he didn't actually charge this turn or 3) getting into melee with the first unit via Heroic Intervention since it doesn't count as charged.

 

 

About the Counter-Offensive Stratagem. That one can only activated right after a unit that charged has fought. So yes you could have activated it. However if we assume he didn't charge that turn and simply consolidated into your second unit you couldn't use that Stratagem in that case.

Edited November 16, 2018 by sfPanzer

[Dont-Be-Haten]

The point regarding fighting twice was addressed in the Rulebook FAQ:

Q: If a unit that can fight twice in the Fight phase charges one enemy unit and destroys it during their first ‘fight’ in the subsequent Fight phase, and then consolidates into a second enemy unit, can they then attack that unit during their second ‘fight’?

A: The charging unit can only make attacks against the second unit if it also declared a charge against it in its charge phase.

 

I really didn't like this ruling. Nothing is worse than multi charging a unit to have an opponent whiff on saving throws to put your second unit on an island only to consolidate into something else and that something gets free attacks against your unit.

 

I felt like being able to consolidate into gun lines was so hyped up for melee centric armies only for them to switch to that rule was a bad choice.

[Damon Nightman]

I just looked over the rules and it lists consolidating as last in the fight phase after resolving all attacks. Does this mean no one should be able to attack after consolidating moves happen? I was getting the impression that after he consolidated into my furioso, my furioso should have been able to attack the wulfen even though the wulfen couldn't attack the furioso (since he wasn't a charge target) Edited November 16, 2018 by Brother Lemartes

[Panzer]

I just looked over the rules and it lists consolidating as last in the fight phase after resolving all attacks. Does this mean no one should be able to attack after consolidating moves happen? I was getting the impression that after he consolidated into my furioso, my furioso should have been able to attack the wulfen even though the wulfen couldn't attack the furioso (since he wasn't a charge target)

 

The consolidation move is the last action for the activated unit, not for the whole fight phase.

[Majkhel]

 

I really didn't like this ruling. Nothing is worse than multi charging a unit to have an opponent whiff on saving throws to put your second unit on an island only to consolidate into something else and that something gets free attacks against your unit.

 

I felt like being able to consolidate into gun lines was so hyped up for melee centric armies only for them to switch to that rule was a bad choice.

Oh   I totally missed that rule! (all my opponents did too btw) 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

I really didn't like this ruling. Nothing is worse than multi charging a unit to have an opponent whiff on saving throws to put your second unit on an island only to consolidate into something else and that something gets free attacks against your unit.

 

I felt like being able to consolidate into gun lines was so hyped up for melee centric armies only for them to switch to that rule was a bad choice.

Oh I totally missed that rule! (all my opponents did too btw)

Yeah seriously it's an awful rule that makes gun lines better. Or when you have a jolly unit who wants to smash face activate towards the closest enemy which is a huge melee monster that you couldn't declare a charge on because you couldn't get within an inch of it. And the melee monster activates second because of how consolidation is worded. It then attacks for free and gets a potential kill.

 

They shouldn't have backtracked on this rule imo.

[Panzer]

The second shooty unit would still be bound in melee and would have to fall back. It just prevents the shooty army from having to provide two screens to stop one unit without the melee unit having to take a slightly bigger risk (lets face it unless you charge flamer, something with a bazillion shots or T'au then overwatch isn't that scary anyway).

Edited November 16, 2018 by sfPanzer

[Jolemai]

They didn't backtrack on any rule? FAQs are a clarification, not an errata after all :)

 

Also, I don't mind it; we shouldn't be getting free hits on things and in an ideal world we shouldn't be trying to wipe a flank with one unit. It's all about synergy and sending something in to eat overwatch for another unit to arrive safely.

 

For example, your Scouts take the brunt to allow your more potent units to arrive safely. Fanciful,I know, but I feel that's the point.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Jolemai

[Indefragable]

It is a bit clunky, but they wanted to draw the line somewhere, otherwise a unit could theoretically* wipe unit A, consolidate into unit B, wipe it, consolidate into C/wipe it, then D....

 

*if there was enough unit rules/abilities/Strategems to do so

[BluejayJunior]

You can declare a charge on anything that is within 12". It doesn't matter whether or not it's possible for a model to get within 1". And you don't have to pile in or consolidate into another unit if you don't want to. Consolidating into another unit is good when it can't really hurt you too much and you can stop it from shooting next turn (like a tank), but you don't want to consolidate into a unit that will wipe you.

 

To be honest DBH, I am a little confused by your criticism/concern about the rule. I feel like I am missing something and don't completely understand what you're saying. 

[The Unseen]

You can declare a charge on anything that is within 12". It doesn't matter whether or not it's possible for a model to get within 1". And you don't have to pile in or consolidate into another unit if you don't want to. Consolidating into another unit is good when it can't really hurt you too much and you can stop it from shooting next turn (like a tank), but you don't want to consolidate into a unit that will wipe you.

 

To be honest DBH, I am a little confused by your criticism/concern about the rule. I feel like I am missing something and don't completely understand what you're saying.

Well, say you drop a unit down 9" away from a screening unit, and the opponent has left a 3.1" gap between the screening unit and an actual target.

You use Descent of Angels to charge 3d6.

It doesn't matter, you can't declare a charge against something more than 12" away.

 

Basically, it's an arbitrary restriction on melee units in an edition full of more of the same.

[Panzer]

 

You can declare a charge on anything that is within 12". It doesn't matter whether or not it's possible for a model to get within 1". And you don't have to pile in or consolidate into another unit if you don't want to. Consolidating into another unit is good when it can't really hurt you too much and you can stop it from shooting next turn (like a tank), but you don't want to consolidate into a unit that will wipe you.

To be honest DBH, I am a little confused by your criticism/concern about the rule. I feel like I am missing something and don't completely understand what you're saying.

Well, say you drop a unit down 9" away from a screening unit, and the opponent has left a 3.1" gap between the screening unit and an actual target.

You use Descent of Angels to charge 3d6.

It doesn't matter, you can't declare a charge against something more than 12" away.

Basically, it's an arbitrary restriction on melee units in an edition full of more of the same.

Imo that's perfectly fine and proper positioning from the opponent then.

[BluejayJunior]

 

 

You can declare a charge on anything that is within 12". It doesn't matter whether or not it's possible for a model to get within 1". And you don't have to pile in or consolidate into another unit if you don't want to. Consolidating into another unit is good when it can't really hurt you too much and you can stop it from shooting next turn (like a tank), but you don't want to consolidate into a unit that will wipe you.

To be honest DBH, I am a little confused by your criticism/concern about the rule. I feel like I am missing something and don't completely understand what you're saying.

Well, say you drop a unit down 9" away from a screening unit, and the opponent has left a 3.1" gap between the screening unit and an actual target.

You use Descent of Angels to charge 3d6.

It doesn't matter, you can't declare a charge against something more than 12" away.

Basically, it's an arbitrary restriction on melee units in an edition full of more of the same.

Imo that's perfectly fine and proper positioning from the opponent then.

 

Ah, that makes sense. I agree with Panzer, but I understand the dissatisfaction.