BA Today

[BluejayJunior]

I agree we need to move to a combined arms approach, but I think our units still suit that style. Nothing about Blood Angels makes our shooty units any worse than the Vanilla codex. A few chapters get bonuses to shoot, but BA still can shoot well. And our chapter tactic and super doctrine mean that even shooty units can hit decently hard in close combat. But, I do wish that our updated chapter tactic would have benefited vehicles and non-melee units more. It can somewhat seem like we're being pigeon holed into a solely close combat role. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I agree we need to move to a combined arms approach, but I think our units still suit that style. Nothing about Blood Angels makes our shooty units any worse than the Vanilla codex. A few chapters get bonuses to shoot, but BA still can shoot well. And our chapter tactic and super doctrine mean that even shooty units can hit decently hard in close combat. But, I do wish that our updated chapter tactic would have benefited vehicles and non-melee units more. It can somewhat seem like we're being pigeon holed into a solely close combat role.

We don't get the -best- shooting. Centurions TFC or good chapter masters. That's the biggest thing that the codex marines have that we don't get. And those two units make all the difference.

[Spagunk]

it seems like GW intends shooting for BA to essentially hold the line until turn 3 hits. That's okay but you end up having to invest a lot of points into CC already which means you're holding the line with one hand tied behind your back until the third turn. Your best bet is to hold the field on turn 1, move your shooting up turn 2 and then let loose with CC on turn 3. How you get there is up for debate and depends on a lot of other factors.

 

If you switch it up so that you play up shooting in lieu of CC, you're wasting half your strats and only using the few truly effective units that are available for shooting. That usually means copying what other marine armies do and hope that your holes aren't exposed. It's not ideal but not the worst: it's still a waste of ability though.

 

It's a tricky thing and I feel it is all up to your local meta on whether you're able to succeed in one path or the other. I don't think we can definitely decide which is better for us as there are too many variables outside list/army building to prove what is better.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Spagunk

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

it seems like GW intends shooting for BA to essentially hold the line until turn 3 hits. That's okay but you end up having to invest a lot of points into CC already which means you're holding the line with one hand tied behind your back until the third turn. Your best bet is to hold the field on turn 1, move your shooting up turn 2 and then let loose with CC on turn 3. How you get there is up for debate and depends on a lot of other factors.

 

If you switch it up so that you play up shooting in lieu of CC, you're wasting half your strats and only using the few truly effective units that are available for shooting. That usually means copying what other marine armies do and hope that your holes aren't exposed. It's not ideal but not the worst: it's still a waste of ability though.

 

It's a tricky thing and I feel it is all up to your local meta on whether you're able to succeed in one path or the other. I don't think we can definitely decide which is better for us as there are too many variables outside list/army building to prove what is better.

What it does is make BA easy to plan for. If you have a shooty army: double down on it.

If you dont, well then it might be a fun match up.

[Pyronick]

Wasn't sure where to ask the question so i figured id put it in this chat:

 

I don't own any incursors or infiltrators. I just picked up the standalone box of 10 infiltrators that can make both.  From what i can see there really is never a need to run 2 x 5 man incursor squads because we're limited at 1 mine a turn regardless.  Likewise i can't see the need for a squad of 10 of either ever. 

 

Is it a solid idea to make a 5 man squad of each in order to get more options for my games to fill out that 3rd troop choice i need? 

[Indefragable]

Wasn't sure where to ask the question so i figured id put it in this chat:

 

I don't own any incursors or infiltrators. I just picked up the standalone box of 10 infiltrators that can make both. From what i can see there really is never a need to run 2 x 5 man incursor squads because we're limited at 1 mine a turn regardless. Likewise i can't see the need for a squad of 10 of either ever.

 

Is it a solid idea to make a 5 man squad of each in order to get more options for my games to fill out that 3rd troop choice i need?

Hot take:

 

Incursors are the best BA Troops choice in the game at the moment.

 

Look, every unit, especially in the Troops slot, has its place and role. That being said, what catapults Incursors to the top for me is that there are 0 downsides to them:

• They are MEQ: T4 3+ bodies, with 2W to boot. In cover that makes them Sv2+....which is the same you get when you pay extra on Scouts
• They have decent shooting: 24" S4 AP0 D:1 guns are the classic bolters...but throw in Ignores Cover and they are effectively AP-1, going up to effectively AP-2 during TacDoc, and they ignore all BS and To Hit modifiers. Screw your RG and Eldar opponents. They can even plink away at Flyers if you got bored.
• As of right now, they are (depressingly) the 3rd best non-HQ Primaris CQC unit in the game. #1 is Aggressors, a far, far, far distant #2 is Reivers, and then you have Intercessors with their 2A and exploding 6's that count as two hits. Important to emphasize the wording of that since it's not "exploding 6's," but rather you automatically get an additional dice to roll For Wound for each 6 you roll To Hit. Money. NOTE: I'm not including Veteran Intercessors since they cost CP to get to, nor am I considering DC Intercessors because that is a specialist unit for us which, to be completely honest, doesn't really warrant inclusion for reasons listed almost everywhere
• They can Infiltrate.

Put that altogether, what do you get? Almost all the upsides of a MEQ unit that can also infiltrate. That right there would be good enough, but when you throw on their wonky but good shooting and the slight melee boost, then what's not to love?

 

What's not to love:

• Their guns are essentially just bolters. If you want something even remotely fancy like Intercessors get, then look elsewhere
• They can't take special weapons of either the ranged or melee variety. But that's a drawback of Primaris in general, so I consider the ability to take something fancy more of a "plus" for Tac Marines and Scouts at this point than a drawback for others

Note what I never mentioned at all: Haywire Mines. You don't even need to bring a single one and they'd still be the best Troops choice. Some would even argue you're better offer saving the points and NOT bringing any HW mines at all. I like to bring them on every squad since they can gum up the works over the course of the game, especially if you're putting them on OBJ each turn. Who cares if they don't do any damage, just the threat of them will harass your opponent to no end. They are the epitome of the type of ability that will only work like 5% of the time, but is guaranteed to win you that 1 epic game where the opponent can't take the last OBJ he needs to win since he would die doing so. TL;DR: they're a bonus ability...don't plan around them, but embrace the off chance they work.

 

 

<smarmy sales guy voice> How many boxes can I put you down for?

 

Infilitrators, to me, are more a specialist unit than a real "line" Troops unit. They're biggest draw is the 12" denial bubble. Otherwise, to get the most out of them, you have to pay the Phobos Capt/LT tax....in which case you might as well spam Infiltrators. To me, they're more of a bring 1-2 if you feel like it unit than a real line unit when compared to Incursors.

 

<mic drop>

 

 

*************

 

As for the Doctrines debate, I stand by my comments that we can not afford to wait until T3/AssDoc for melee. It should be considered a (quite tasty) bonus when we get there more than something to hold back and wait to use.

 

Even the name of our ability, "Savage Echoes," suggests that it is a bonus more than a key ability:

 

What is an echo? It is the reverberation of sound, an offshoot effect as opposed to the originator....thus, to me, T3+ is our fury from T1 and T2 "echoing" and amplifying in power rather than us holding our breath for two turns.

 

There is plenty of healthy debate to be had on the topic, including just how much shooting or not we should be building around, but I am firmly in the "do not wait to T3 to charge" camp.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Jolemai

[bevulf]

Hi guys,

I just wanted to share my latest painted miniature. Lord of Death himself:

hope you like him !

Cheers!

[Pyronick]

 

Wasn't sure where to ask the question so i figured id put it in this chat:

 

I don't own any incursors or infiltrators. I just picked up the standalone box of 10 infiltrators that can make both. From what i can see there really is never a need to run 2 x 5 man incursor squads because we're limited at 1 mine a turn regardless. Likewise i can't see the need for a squad of 10 of either ever.

 

Is it a solid idea to make a 5 man squad of each in order to get more options for my games to fill out that 3rd troop choice i need?

Hot take:

 

Incursors are the best BA Troops choice in the game at the moment.

 

 

Love the post, but not sure i got a true answer. Do you feel that incursors can be run as more than 1 5 man squad? Do you fill your detachment with 3 x 5 incursors? I was turned away from the one mine at a time, but according to your post mines dont even matter. Do they really straight up replace Intecessors as the baseline choice (I'm speaking purely primaris at this point which is relevant).  Or, do you think a mix of all is best to cover many different scenarios. 

[Indefragable]

 

 

Wasn't sure where to ask the question so i figured id put it in this chat:

 

I don't own any incursors or infiltrators. I just picked up the standalone box of 10 infiltrators that can make both. From what i can see there really is never a need to run 2 x 5 man incursor squads because we're limited at 1 mine a turn regardless. Likewise i can't see the need for a squad of 10 of either ever.

 

Is it a solid idea to make a 5 man squad of each in order to get more options for my games to fill out that 3rd troop choice i need?

Hot take:

 

Incursors are the best BA Troops choice in the game at the moment.

 

 

Love the post, but not sure i got a true answer. Do you feel that incursors can be run as more than 1 5 man squad? Do you fill your detachment with 3 x 5 incursors? I was turned away from the one mine at a time, but according to your post mines dont even matter. Do they really straight up replace Intecessors as the baseline choice (I'm speaking purely primaris at this point which is relevant).  Or, do you think a mix of all is best to cover many different scenarios. 

 

 

I have been running 4x5 Incursors with mines (but the HW mines are personal choice). Other 2x Troops I've been rotating between CQC Scouts, Bolter+HB scouts, or sometimes Intercessors and Vet Intercessors. 

 

To answer your last sentence of your post....the annoyingly non committal answer is "it all depends..."

 

...it depends on the matchup, what's in the rest of your army, the board setup, etc... There's so many variables that its' hard to specifically say...

 

..but that being said, as a matter of principle, I think some variety is generally good. Bringing 1x5 Infilitrators, for example, will pretty much never hurt: either you can use them to deny DS on a flank, or if the enemy does not have DS'ers, than simply park them on a backfield OBJ. I like to load up on certain unit types because I like to go heavy on a particular flank, even if it's a mental flank, if you will. It helps me concentrate on doing 1-2 things well rather than trying to do everything at once. Something I've learned over the course of a very bumpy 5+ years of playing this game. 

 

TL;DR: I think it's generally better to go heavy in a particular direction with some variety sprinkled in rather than aim for variety. I.e. for me, taking 4/6 Troops slots as the same thing is generally "better" than deliberately including 1x Tac Squad, 1x Scout Squad, 1x Intercessor squad, 1x Infiltrator squad, and 1x Incursor squad just for the sake of trying to cover every base....because the truth is you can't ever cover every possible base. You need to pick where you want your attention to be and try to do that as well as you can (which includes understanding it's weaknesses and how an opponent will try to counter what you do with it). 

 

To quote Ron Swanson: "Don't try to half-ass two things. It's better to whole-ass one thing."

 

For reference, here is the latest "competitive" list I've been seeking to get reps with: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/361598-2000pt-competitive-ba-brigade-decapitation-strike/?p=5470025 

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

it seems like GW intends shooting for BA to essentially hold the line until turn 3 hits. That's okay but you end up having to invest a lot of points into CC already which means you're holding the line with one hand tied behind your back until the third turn. Your best bet is to hold the field on turn 1, move your shooting up turn 2 and then let loose with CC on turn 3. How you get there is up for debate and depends on a lot of other factors.

 

If you switch it up so that you play up shooting in lieu of CC, you're wasting half your strats and only using the few truly effective units that are available for shooting. That usually means copying what other marine armies do and hope that your holes aren't exposed. It's not ideal but not the worst: it's still a waste of ability though.

 

It's a tricky thing and I feel it is all up to your local meta on whether you're able to succeed in one path or the other. I don't think we can definitely decide which is better for us as there are too many variables outside list/army building to prove what is better.

I really think BA are best as a bull deploy/low turn one placement. Using drop pods and deep strike from turn 2 on to really protect against too much shooting. A couple whirlwinds are easy enough to hide, and really benefit from turn 1 on being able to snipe TFC while your troops can pinpoint drop where they need to, and charge as well backed by units like a Rage libby or Sanguinor.

 

It gives just enough variety and forces the opponent to decide if they want to remain castles or not.

[Pyronick]

 

 

 

Wasn't sure where to ask the question so i figured id put it in this chat:

 

I don't own any incursors or infiltrators. I just picked up the standalone box of 10 infiltrators that can make both. From what i can see there really is never a need to run 2 x 5 man incursor squads because we're limited at 1 mine a turn regardless. Likewise i can't see the need for a squad of 10 of either ever.

 

Is it a solid idea to make a 5 man squad of each in order to get more options for my games to fill out that 3rd troop choice i need?

Hot take:

 

Incursors are the best BA Troops choice in the game at the moment.

 

 

Love the post, but not sure i got a true answer. Do you feel that incursors can be run as more than 1 5 man squad? Do you fill your detachment with 3 x 5 incursors? I was turned away from the one mine at a time, but according to your post mines dont even matter. Do they really straight up replace Intecessors as the baseline choice (I'm speaking purely primaris at this point which is relevant).  Or, do you think a mix of all is best to cover many different scenarios. 

 

 

I have been running 4x5 Incursors with mines (but the HW mines are personal choice). Other 2x Troops I've been rotating between CQC Scouts, Bolter+HB scouts, or sometimes Intercessors and Vet Intercessors. 

 

To answer your last sentence of your post....the annoyingly non committal answer is "it all depends..."

 

Again i appreciate the insight. Last question while we're discussing... Do infiltrators stop the spell based relocations as well? Specifically the Thousand Sons spells that allow them to teleport around. Theres two different versions of it if i'm remembering right. 

[Spagunk]

 

What it does is make BA easy to plan for. If you have a shooty army: double down on it.

If you dont, well then it might be a fun match up.

 

 

Yup. On the nose.

[Indefragable]

 

<snip>

   Again i appreciate the insight. Last question while we're discussing... Do infiltrators stop the spell based relocations as well? Specifically the Thousand Sons spells that allow them to teleport around. Theres two different versions of it if i'm remembering right. 

Based on the wording of Omni-Scramblers :

 

Hidden Content

”Enemy units that are set up on the battlefield as reinforcements cannot be set up within 12” of this unit.”

 

 

...no.

 

it would depend on the wording of each psychic power/ability (annoying I know), but the short version is that Infiltrators mess with anything that lets a unit “set up as reinforcements.” Aka Deep Striking in all its forms, Outflanking type powers, or Genestealer cult ambush shenanigans. I’m not super well versed on Grey Knights, but me thinks Gate of Infinity falls into that as well. 

 

However, anything that is just “free” movement, like the Chaos Space Marine power Warptime, would not be affected by the Omni-Scramblers. 

 

If you mention any specific Thousand Sons powers you are worried about, I can try to get a read on them. I’m not too familiar with them.

[Aothaine]

Hi guys,

 

I just wanted to share my latest painted miniature. Lord of Death himself:

hope you like him !

 

Cheers!

 

Well done! Looks great!

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Aothaine

[BluejayJunior]

 

 

<snip>

   Again i appreciate the insight. Last question while we're discussing... Do infiltrators stop the spell based relocations as well? Specifically the Thousand Sons spells that allow them to teleport around. Theres two different versions of it if i'm remembering right. 

Based on the wording of Omni-Scramblers :

 

Hidden Content

”Enemy units that are set up on the battlefield as reinforcements cannot be set up within 12” of this unit.”

 

 

...no.

 

it would depend on the wording of each psychic power/ability (annoying I know), but the short version is that Infiltrators mess with anything that lets a unit “set up as reinforcements.” Aka Deep Striking in all its forms, Outflanking type powers, or Genestealer cult ambush shenanigans. I’m not super well versed on Grey Knights, but me thinks Gate of Infinity falls into that as well. 

 

However, anything that is just “free” movement, like the Chaos Space Marine power Warptime, would not be affected by the Omni-Scramblers. 

 

If you mention any specific Thousand Sons powers you are worried about, I can try to get a read on them. I’m not too familiar with them.

 

Thousands Sons have a relic (Dark Matter Crystal, I believe) that allows units to redeploy. Omni-scramblers would block that. Not sure if they have a power that does it as well. But yes, warp time does not fall into that category. 

[Majkhel]

@Pyronick, if I may add a thing to what Indy has said. I would say that with Infiltrators, you can take 1x5 man squad if you need them to block something and have their utility. In case of Incursors though, it's better to take more than one unless you're really tight on points for troops. 

So if you have one multipart box either build 2x5 Incursors or get another box :)

 

IMO, you generally use Infiltrators for their specific area denial bonus and multiply the number of units only when necessary, because they are not cheap troops.

Incursors on the other hands are much cheaper and are taken due to their ability to appear right at the enemy's face. They are also better in melee (even if just a bit) and so have better overall usability. And in that case you need numbers to help at least some of them survive. Mines are just like Indy said - a bonus. But again it is good to have at least 2, because if you have only one, you give your opponent a greater priority target.

[Pyronick]

Thought so, thanks everybody! I think the other power i was thinking of is actually a stratagem Webway Infiltration. It looks like thats a free infiltrate deep strike which seems that it would in fact be blocked by Infiltrators. 

[Indefragable]

IMO, Infilitrators are best used either as 1-2 DS blockers or en masse with Phobos Capt + LT support. Issue with the latter is as @Majkhel says they are not cheap on their own, let alone when you add the "tax" of Capt+LT and their useful options like Helix Adept. 

 

In short, Infilitrators are probably the "best" Troops choice since they have perhaps the highest ceiling* when buffed properly, but you have to commit so much to them to get to that point it's not worth the investment. Hence why Incursors are the Goldlilocks "just right" when all factors are considered.

 

*10-man Veteran Intercessor squad with Thunder Hammer Sgt is probably the "best" Troops unit, but you can only have one and it costs CP to get, so it's knocked down a peg in my book. If the Vet Intercessors could take additional melee weapons, then it would in fact perhaps be worth it despite the drawbacks. 

[Karhedron]

I would like to agree with the above. Incursors are very solid for the points and 2x5-man squads will serve you well. The mines are an interesting option, but certainly not the highlight. They get a handful of useful bonuses of which you are likely to get mileage out of at least a couple in every game.

 

Infiltrators pay a significant premium for a powerful but situational ability. They will wreck some armies but against others you will be paying for deadweight. I would normally take Incursors unless I knew I was playing specific opponents (Daemon Bombs, Da Jump Orks, GSC, other Blood Angels).

[Djangomatic82]

*10-man Veteran Intercessor squad with Thunder Hammer Sgt is probably the "best" Troops unit, but you can only have one and it costs CP to get,

Just to clarify, the vet intercesor strat doesn't limit you to one unit, it just says a unit can only be targeted by it once. so you can have as many vet units as you have CP and squads to pay for.

[Indefragable]

 

*10-man Veteran Intercessor squad with Thunder Hammer Sgt is probably the "best" Troops unit, but you can only have one and it costs CP to get,

Just to clarify, the vet intercesor strat doesn't limit you to one unit, it just says a unit can only be targeted by it once. so you can have as many vet units as you have CP and squads to pay for.

 

 

I may be wrong, but wasn't there a FAQ that said something about pre-game Stratagems have been limited the number of times they can be used? 

[Djangomatic82]

 

 

*10-man Veteran Intercessor squad with Thunder Hammer Sgt is probably the "best" Troops unit, but you can only have one and it costs CP to get,

Just to clarify, the vet intercesor strat doesn't limit you to one unit, it just says a unit can only be targeted by it once. so you can have as many vet units as you have CP and squads to pay for.

 

 

I may be wrong, but wasn't there a FAQ that said something about pre-game Stratagems have been limited the number of times they can be used? 

 

looking through the main rule book FAQ, Chapter Approved FAQ's, big FAQ's, designer commentary and the kurovs aquilla entry in the AM faq, I don't see anything that puts a blanket limit on the number of times a a pre game strat can be used, unless it is part of the strat itself.

Edited February 1, 2020 by Djangomatic82

[Indefragable]

@Djangomatic82 all the better then. Perhaps it was specific wording changes to the RG/AL sneaky deployment Strategem that limited them. I swear there was something that did that.

 

It makes far more sense to go 2x5 Vet Intercessors squads and get the Sgt hammer attacks than go 1x10.

[The Unseen]

You might be thinking of the IH pregame strat to make a dreadnought a character.

That strat was SPECIFICALLY nerfed to be once per game

 

Other pregame strats you can use as long as you have targets and CP.

The veteran inctercessor wording is to prevent you giving the same unit +1 attack +1 leadership multiple times, but you can use it multiple times on different units each time.

[Pyronick]

Im building out my Veteran Intercessors now. I'm giving them the assault bolters as it seems best to keep them moving for that sweet melee attack.  The real question is how the hell do i put a thunderhammer on a guy holding an auto bolter!?