[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[Caustic63]

The bottom line when it comes to rules discrepancies such as the one above is that it should be discussed with your opponent prior to beginning a game. In such cases, I typically outline my interpretation of said rule/the interpretation of a Forge World representitive and come to an agreement on how it will be resolved in game. This matters more then the personal opinions of anyone else on this board, so I would recommend you do that instead.

 

Official FAQs are pretty much set in stone however, so it would be nice if Forge World cleared up this particular point when they release the next one.

[GorgeousGoat]

The bottom line when it comes to rules discrepancies such as the one above is that it should be discussed with your opponent prior to beginning a game. In such cases, I typically outline my interpretation of said rule/the interpretation of a Forge World representitive and come to an agreement on how it will be resolved in game. This matters more then the personal opinions of anyone else on this board, so I would recommend you do that instead.

 

Official FAQs are pretty much set in stone however, so it would be nice if Forge World cleared up this particular point when they release the next one.

Couldn't agree more and I don't mean to be inflammatory - may just be a 'house rule' where we play and all opponents are playing to this. 

 

I read the .pdf when it was released:

http://www.games-workshop.com/doc/125448672/Stormeagle-Rules-pdf#games-workshop

And completely agree that this needs to be cleaned up by Forgeworld in a FAQ as it'd be good to have it the same across all players etc. I have emailed FW for my own sanity on this and in the hopes that it will spur them to release a FAQ!!!!

I don't think it's game breaking or anything. But I digress from the tactica of this.

 

So Palatine blades (without Jump Packs) and Eidolon (without Jump Pack) would still be able to charge and wreck a unit as the charge distances are the same - just lose HoW and save some points. 

Mobility would be decreased - so really are a glass cannon. 

 

How have others run them and to what success?

Edited February 2, 2016 by GorgeousGoat

[Hesh Kadesh]

Usually because a Storm Eagles shooting is so desultory against MEQ's, an Anvillus Dreadclaw is a better option.

 

If you upgrade to Lascannons, that means you are spending around 250pts to put a unit in reaerve until Turn 2 and be unable to assault until Turn 3. A Dreadclaw not only costs a fraction but leaves enough points for you to take a nearly a pair of Javelin Speeders with MM and Lascannons or even a Medusa.

[GorgeousGoat]

That's a great point with the Storm Eagle - I just liked the Air Cavalry fluff of that and the Fire Raptor coming on etc.

 

I haven't used any Drop Pods in 30k yet, so apologies if I ask any stupid questions but what are the rules for using the Anvillus Dreadclaw as the pts save is huge and I can get a Legion Vindicator with Laser Destroyer instead (3 Str 9 AP1 shots are worth 130pts imo). 

 

I've seen mixed results with the Javelin speeders as they very fragile. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Javelins are a decent Beta strike. It is a cheap (ish) AT option that has the benefit of AV11 to make it immune to random Bolter fire and outflank to guarantee a rear armour shot.

 

It is also less dangerous than even a trio of Grav Speeders, which can gib a tank instantly. Although there is more RNG involved, it can still take a pair of HP's off a turn and maybe destroy it. The issue with a non Scouting Vindi TD is that it is limited to front shots only, although 3 TL's Ordnance is good.

 

Basically, the trick to think about the Dreadclaw is that it is not a drop pod, but a cheap flying assault transport (cheapest assault transport in the book actually), that it is a fast skimmer with Deep Strike makesnit even better, and triply so with DPA. It has a couple of Hull point stripping rules too, but for what it brings, it is gold. I'd be disappointed if it got increased in ptd, but it would still be good at 130pts.

 

Only thing to watch out for is things like Deredeos which can do a ton of damage.

 

I'd love the Storm Eagle to be worth it, but at 160pts it would be just about right, +15 for TL Lascannons, and giving it the option of upgrading its missiles to the Roc pattern (as per the Minotaurs version from IA12) could make it better.

[Theredknight]

 

 

 

There is no way in hell the dark angels come out bland. They've for the first legion terran veterans who crusades alone for decades mixed with secular gothic space knights. That's awesome just to type.

The problem is: that description is in my head, and then we get the crappiest relic bar none, and that makes absolutely no sense.

*cough* lucid blade

Lucid ain't bad, nothing like tanking the enemy Preator while your spears do the work :D, then you win with bonus to combat res. Situational sure, but pretty nice in conjunction with the rest of the army.

Nope it sucks balls. Situational.. At best...

It's why it has the name (a worse way of saying it) the 'poo blade' because it is made of an expensive emperors turd, shaped to roughly look like a sword.

'Tanking an enemy praetor' doesn't work out like that. The amount of dice hitting and wounding you odds are you will fail minimum one. And then your dead. I have tried it, and failed miserably, twice. You try it.

 

If it gave the ability it had and re rolls invulnerable saves possibly.. It would maybe have been worth the collosal points cost for an ap3 blade which is useless in challenges for a legion that's forced to challenge.

Also if everyone had spears, great, but they don't. It's just not practical.

Been playing the legion since book 1, believe me I have tried every way.

 

Alas we stray off topic. See what you made me do! I roll off on the poo blade every time someone says 'yeah it's pretty good'

 

I'm looking forward to getting my hands on the new army lists books, and some glorious new rules for the third.

And can't wait for juicy info about the sons of prospero.. A bit wee came out when I saw the seminar.. I live an hour away and none of my lot wild go with me!!!

[Hesh Kadesh]

Theredknight, I'm sorry, you're just wrong on Lucid Blade front. I can't explain it any more than I can, but just because a Paragon Blade exist doesn't mean that a Praetor with a Power Sword and a 2+/2++ is bad. UM, NL, DA, WE are all invariably worse.

[Theredknight]

I wouldn't say wrong, have you personally played with it?

Our opinion differs there my friend. My personal experiences have been terrible with it. It's over costed for what it is even.

Stand it next to 90% of the others (including stock) it's bottom tier.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Yeah, played with Dark Eldar Shadowfields for a lot longer too :) It depends on what you're wanting to do with a list.

 

Think about it this way; if you were picking up a Budget Praetor, it would be Paragon Blade/Thunder Hammer and Boarding Shield, maybe a Digi Weapon for the additional attack, coming to 140-160 depending on set up. Gives you a decent set of attacks; 4-6 on the charge depending on the upgrades, hitting on 3-4's, wounding on 3's, ignoring saves. Paragon Blade for Shredding infantry and challenge sergeants, Thunder Hammers or Power Fists for slotting Enemy IC's.

 

If you want to go expensive, you can do Praetor, Sonic Shrieker, Master Crafted Paragon Blade (or Thunder Hammer), Meltabombs, Digital Weapons, Iron Halo (190pts), or Tartaros Armour, Thunder Hammer/Paragon, Digilasers, Iron Halo, Mastercrafted, Grenade Harness, Sonic Shriekers (195pts). Maybe for the artificer armoured variant, you could go for another 20pts to pick up a Power Fist. 

 

Alternatively; Cataphractii, Power Fist, Lucid Blade = 195pts. It can alternate between a 2+/2++ (with 4 S5 AP3 Attacks at I6 during a challenge on the charge), with Fearless to back up the squad if he dies in a command squad and just keep an army and just tank as long as possible. Facing a ton of hidden Power Fists just ain't pretty, (such as when up against anything up to and including a Primarch) and the chance of rolling a 1 is much lower than rolling a 1-3 vs a Pfist or Instant Death attack. Get a kitted up Terminator Command Squad, and have them kill enemies and hold up an enemy death unit as long as possible.

 

If you want to sweep with your Praetor, sure. Do so. But you won't do it better than a Lucid Blade guy, which is just more flexible. Eidolon should show how useful a 5 Attack S8 Ap2 is. That he gets it at I7 is the icing on the cake. If you wanted to sweep and deal damage, you'd go for the budget with a PFist or Hammer to kill enemy characters.

 

A global fear test against I8 or better units, many of them with Vexilla's or in vehicles anyway going by a typical global meta, and on a one use only platform? Ouch. So you've got to charge into an assault, likely with typical assault units so possibly WS5 anyway (given the DA's typical focus) when it comes to it, and hope that units you charge with non WS5 units fails their Fear test; considering that as you're likely to win that assault anyway, and shouldn't be relying on a Ld test and +1 to hit (or -1 to hit for your enemy) to win that, it's naff. Fear is very nice if it goes off, but not 40pts for a 1 use only Ld test with rerolls allowed for possible +1 to hit. If it was a 1 use only thing that has a 2+/4+/6+ continuation thing like the Night Lords Terror Assault granting Fear, with an additional -1 to Ld for each successive turn it remains awake to have possibly a -3 to Ld on turn 3 if you pass the 6+, THAT's 40pts.

 

Having said that, it's not only a moot point, but something that we should take to the relevant tactics threads, just needed to address the point here ;). S'all good though, different strokes for different folks, but it is still categorically NOT the worst.

[01RTB01]

Why can't you give the lucid blade to a legion champ and let him take the pounding and let eidolon squish the unit?...

[depthcharge12]

Why can't you give the lucid blade to a legion champ and let him take the POUNDING?...

Heh.

 

I think already does from his legion and Slaanesh.

[Slips]

 

Why can't you give the lucid blade to a legion champ and let him take the POUNDING?...

Heh.

 

I think already does from his legion and Slaanesh.

 

Dont make me slap you, foo!

 

  

[Theredknight]

Hesh - yep I can see where your going with it, but when you have a pissed off Khârn trying to chop your consul to bits, or a consul power fist chaplain, it never seems to work! Deflect a couple of blows maybe then instant killed.

Sigs would be pretty hard to deflect too I think.. Il have to roll some dice this weekend and see what comes up, but since I used It, my personal experience is, for the points of what it costs, and to support the character you can have a lot of better things that's all.

 

My gaming group laugh at me as their praetors pull out the Sally shield or photonic blade.

Like 'that's not a sword..THIS is a sword' it's like playing knifey spoony.

 

Rtb - I don't play that rite of war mate it's pretty weak, in fact, atm I don't play any lol

[Hesh Kadesh]

Fair points, well made and all, but why would you put your character up against Sigismund? You have a choice in the.matter. Instead, put some Vorax in his way.

 

Go second and Deep strike on the other side of the battlefield.

 

As for a Powerfist Chaplain, you much have some rotten luck/crap dice. Don't use GW dice either. While not an empirical.study by any means, someone a while back took the effort to roll Gw dice loads of times, and repeat it twice more, with 1's coming out higher than any other. Scientific testing can likely counter that point, but it was one of those things that made me just locate some proper dice by a dice manufacturer which prides itself on even chance dice, rather than any old crap dice that are roughly moulded dice.

 

Remember, bonuses are bonuses to use.if you can, not built exclusively towards and relied upon to pick up the slack if circumstantial. It might be better to feed the enemy Chaplain your chosen warriors while you unleash your 6-7 attacks on the enemy squad and the rest of the squad and then have excess wounds allocated.

 

There is no accounting for chance, although the only thing that could make a 2++ Invulnerable tougher is Eternal Warrior.

 

I don't agree with people who use 'but he dies to Sigismund in a challenge' either.

[01RTB01]

Didn't someone say something about ws5 Phoenix guard, heavy 2 and relentless kakophony?... I've no inside info but called it :)

 

Phoenix and palatines with sonic shriekers mock with glee and kakophoni as troops, 3rd company, 3rd legion here we go :D

 

Models already built and some painted. Woooooooooo!

[Theredknight]

I have been asking people to try and give us some info on the legion, I think we get shouldered to the back of the queue with so much good stuff available lol

 

I still have no more info than I did before, I'm more interested to see if they changed the weapon profile a little tbh

[dark_elf]

I haven't been able to get much info either.

 

The only thing I've seen confirmed is the Kakophoni with Heavy 2, Relentless and Troops in the new RoW.

 

Can't yet find any info on the updated rules for Phoenix Guards, Palatines or general EC updates to pull the Legion in line with the others. I am really hoping for some updates because currently, I am tempted to go with another legion.

[Supe robot gangster #1]

Don't have the pics in hand. But I have seen them.

Legion wide we get +1 I on the charge

Sonic shriekers changed to -1 WS on opponents

Phoenix guard WS 5

Kakophani ande heavy 2 now

New ROW is kakophani as troops and have relentless

[1ncarnadine]

I have been asking people to try and give us some info on the legion, I think we get shouldered to the back of the queue with so much good stuff available lol

 

I still have no more info than I did before, I'm more interested to see if they changed the weapon profile a little tbh

 

I'll do you guys next, as I still can't sleep and typing these rules helps commit them to memory for me. It's pretty much as Supe robot gangster said though.

 

LA rules are unchanged except for the addition of a new rule, Flawless Execution. Legion-wide +1 I on charges, unless making a Disordered Charge.

 

Sonic Shriekers impose -1WS on anything in base contact with a model using the shriekers, but it doesn't work on enemies immune to fear (so Death Guard, automata, some characters).

 

Phoenix Terminators are +1WS on the regular dudes, and +1A on the Phoenix Champion. Sudden Strike has a line that calls out that the Init bonus combos with the LA rules so +2I on charges. No further changes.

 

No changes to Rylanor unfortunately! He is still stuck with 2 attacks and doesn't even get 4HP like the Mhara Gal & Telemechrus. Darn. And Eidolon's charge rule still calls out Cumbersome instead of Unwieldy! oops.

 

Kakophoni are of course Heavy 2, no other changes. Actually that's it! 

 

The Book VI RoW has been posted about in other places and I think there are even pictures of it but I'll sum it up again anyway:

Kakophoni may be troops (they don't have to be but they can be compulsory! Nice), and all Kakophoni in the army gain Relentless. All infantry units in power or artificer armour can purchase sonic shriekers for very cheap, although the entire unit must purchase them. They go at a rate of 2 meltabombs for 5 shriekers. Downside, uhm, only for Traitors, no Allied Space Marines, and if you do ally in Imperial Army/Mechanicum the allies count as one level worse than normal on your allies matrix. Darn, what a blow!

[Theredknight]

Thank you lets you down for reporting!

[Theredknight]

Anyone any idea where it says ec get +1 initiative?

[MorgothNL]

Anyone any idea where it says ec get +1 initiative?

I suppose it's in the new red book? (if thats what you're asking). If you're asking where on this forum it says that: it seems to be something confirmed by multiple people who have seen/are in possession of the red book.

 

If this is true, and all EC get +1I on the charge, I'd be quite happy. Of course for obvious reasons, EC getting a much needed legion boost, but mostly cause I've been struggling with 2 of my lists. They are identical but one runs Eidolon with palatines, and the other runs Eidolon with apothecary and Command Squad with Melta bombs. The Command Squad does much better most of the time, mostly due to the ability to destroy a spartan on the turn they charge out of a dreadclaw, and get Eidolons hammer into combat the turn after. It just sucked that they struck at the same time as their opponent. This will fix that and will put CMQ SQ with Meltabombs above Palatines for me (using the same models so not losing face there). Now they just need the ability to take spears .

Edited February 7, 2016 by MorgothNL

[01RTB01]

I've updated my lists so that my palatines and Phoenix guard have shriekers. I've got a chunky game coming up and I'll be running 20 kakophoni as my main troops. Should be fun seeing the impact shriekers have as well as the +1 initiative on the charge. Does mean that the blades should strike first (after eidolon). Very excited.

 

The +1 initiative army wide is now part of the legiones astartes EC rules. We may not be as "good" as some of the legions but at least our flavour works and all special units are now viable. I'm going to try adding my jump pack chaplain with void generator to the palatines with eidolon. Could be fun :)

[MorgothNL]

I've updated my lists so that my palatines and Phoenix guard have shriekers. I've got a chunky game coming up and I'll be running 20 kakophoni as my main troops. Should be fun seeing the impact shriekers have as well as the +1 initiative on the charge. Does mean that the blades should strike first (after eidolon). Very excited.

 

The +1 initiative army wide is now part of the legiones astartes EC rules. We may not be as "good" as some of the legions but at least our flavour works and all special units are now viable. I'm going to try adding my jump pack chaplain with void generator to the palatines with eidolon. Could be fun

Yes, I've also made versions of all my lists, to not contain relics. Some people are quite snarky about it since they now have to agree to allow them. I don't want to have any discussions before the game and ruin the spirits, so I now just ask if he has one, if not, I won't take one either.

I like it too actually, cause the void shield was starting to become a 'go-to' item in many list, which was becoming quite lame.

[Theredknight]

Hmm interesting, I guess it depends if they adapted the unit rules, as well. i guess we will see.

 

I had heard that Phoenix guards weapon skill had changed, they are still a little weak compared to most others, but at least they have a chance to hit them! The nl row could be hard for us, being that it can give the whole army fear. Yep no sweeping and no point in taking kakophoni unfortunately! It's like a trump card

 

Haha void shield is ace, especially when popped in the front of a squad. I had one turn it tanked al the hits from a mortis and a sicaran. Well worth the points.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Theredknight