[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[Theredknight]

Yes caustic long have we awaited this day.

Looking forward to the new books, hopefully inbound soon.

One popped up on the bulletin last week, not sure about the new legion one.

We have speculation about the rules as you say, will be good to see how it is worded.

I was a little shocked to see that there is practically no drawbacks, I never play allies anyway.

Anyway, we can hope that the rules lords have been kind to the legion, and give it that more degraded feel as the heresy moves on further.

Be nice if they removed that forced challenge anchor but I guess we will see!

[01RTB01]

Rules pics are floating around. Shriekers are those in base contact. It's a significant difference. Exciting times ahead. I should hopefully have my hard copy of the new red book by Saturday. Very excited!

[MorgothNL]

Rules pics are floating around. Shriekers are those in base contact. It's a significant difference. Exciting times ahead. I should hopefully have my hard copy of the new red book by Saturday. Very excited!

In which waters would that be? 

[Slips]

Just look at the weekender thread.

 

Peeps have been posting a select few pages from the book when they got to buy them at the weekender.

[MorgothNL]

Just look at the weekender thread.

 

Peeps have been posting a select few pages from the book when they got to buy them at the weekender.

Been following that thread most of the time, but missed any pics from EC. but I'll start clicking through the 76 pages then.

 

Edit:

Ok, that's silly, I'll just wait for my own copy.

Edited February 9, 2016 by MorgothNL

[Slips]

 

Just look at the weekender thread.

 

Peeps have been posting a select few pages from the book when they got to buy them at the weekender.

Been following that thread most of the time, but missed any pics from EC. but I'll start clicking through the 76 pages then.

 

Edit:

Ok, that's silly, I'll just wait for my own copy.

 

First Post should have links to relevant info.

 

Also on Heresy30k, Garro has a thread where he goes over, in general and broad terms, whats in the book.

[MorgothNL]

 

 

Just look at the weekender thread.

 

Peeps have been posting a select few pages from the book when they got to buy them at the weekender.

Been following that thread most of the time, but missed any pics from EC. but I'll start clicking through the 76 pages then.

 

Edit:

Ok, that's silly, I'll just wait for my own copy.

 

First Post should have links to relevant info.

 

Also on Heresy30k, Garro has a thread where he goes over, in general and broad terms, whats in the book.

 

Yes, I've seen that but thank you.

 

Just wanted to see the exact wording (like the base contact with the shriekers). But it's ok, I'll wait :).

 

Now I regret breaking apart 5 phoenix guard to give palatines spears -.-. Would rather have had a few more phoenix guard now.

[01RTB01]

If you pm me an email addy I can forward the pics. Good res and v clear :) I just Can't post here on my phone and laptop is dead :(

 

Wording for shriekers is models in base contact. Also doesn't affect fearless troops. Not too many of those about!

 

Question is how to model them? Thoughts?

[Theredknight]

Just fearless? How about stubborn and other things I wonder..fear causing = fearless? Do night lords it won't work on, at least we can go at the same time as them this time I suppose.

 

I think for normal guys vs other normal guys that's pretty helpful. And hopefully the initiative bonus turns out to be true and worded correctly.

 

Does this new book include unit entries? I got and idea of what is in it, but hopefully costs have been adjusted (boy justearin got turbo boosted)

 

Apparently the updated lacal will be about in the next couple of months. Alan Bligh had completed it before the weekender apparently.

The are usually pretty good on printing 2/3 months turnaround.

 

I can see the rite of war, but bo info on ec units/rules.

[1ncarnadine]

The wording on Shriekers is that it doesn't affect models "immune to Fear." There are actually quite a few times this comes up in the wording for rules in the new books, and it's obviously intended to specifically exempt the Death Guard (as they are immune to Fear but not Fearless).

 

also, it should work on Night Lords? Causing Fear =/= Fearless or immune to Fear in many cases

Edited February 9, 2016 by LetsYouDown

[Theredknight]

Hmm interesting reading the rb, models that cause fear are not themselves immune to fear.

 

Hello ws3 night lords!

 

If they are fearless, they auto pass morale and ld based tests.

 

Stubborn units take morale checks and pinning tests without a modifier.. However, I don't have my book to hand, do kakophoni actually force a morale test, or is it just a test based on their leadership? This also goes for fearless, the detail is in the wording.

[MorgothNL]

So do we know who can take the shriekers? And at what pts? (normal sergeants?)

 

If you pm me an email addy I can forward the pics. Good res and v clear  I just Can't post here on my phone and laptop is dead 

Wording for shriekers is models in base contact. Also doesn't affect fearless troops. Not too many of those about!

Question is how to model them? Thoughts?

 

Send a PM :D.

 

I'm thinking the same, I really want WYSIWYG.. but what is it that we should see and where ?

Edited February 9, 2016 by MorgothNL

[Theredknight]

Sonic shriekers tend to be in the larynx of a space marine. At they are modified tracheal implant spliced with laer dna.

 

Really you wouldn't see it, it would be amplified through their speakers wouldn't it?

I imagine it will be a 'the whole unit must take it' type of thing, a bit like palatines are now.

[Caustic63]

Changing the topic a little bit, overall I think ALL the updates they've done are good - which is an unusual thing for me to say on a nominally GW product. Somewhere along the line the designers realized what the player base has been saying all along about there being noticeable power creep between the first four legions and the last five legions, and they've acted upon it. My favourite legions will always be Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons (with a soft spot towards Salamanders and Imperial Fists) but I know that for a game to truly endure and grow all legions need to be equally powerful from a competitive point of view, even while they favour different specializations and styles of gameplay.

 

So now for the buffs:

 

Sons of Horus have gained the new Death Dealers rule, which gives them a +BS bonus if you are within 12" of the enemy and not shooting a Heavy weapon (doesn't work on Snap Shots or Fury of the Legion). In my opinion this cements the SoH as the generalists of the traitors, since they already had an abundance of force org swaps that made them very versatile. In order to take advantage of this rule they need to be aggressive however, so it matches their style very well. The new Justaerins are much fairer now (perhaps a bit too good!) so keep an eye out for them.

 

The World Eaters have also gotten a legion tactics upgrade, essentially swapping Furious Charge after a kill for Reroll 1s to wound on the charge. Bloodlust now works on a 4+ too, which like us gives them some protection from being swept if they lose. Both of these are good changes, because while the WEs had good units and characters (let's not mention the NON traitor guy...) their legion rules seemed lacklustre and needed tightening. I think its safe to say a game as ECs versus WEs is going to end up being largely positional with getting the charge being exceptionally important.

 

The Death Guard now gain FNP(4+) when hit by Poisioned or Fleshbane weapons (most likely Phosphex or Rad Missiles) and Ignore all Dangerous Terrain. Useful but still mostly niche. Their Power scythes lose Unwieldy but still penalize initiative in return for giving their bearer a bonus attack for being in base contact with 2 or more models. This is ultimately better for their close combat performance, because it means their sergeants are going to be very lethal in a challenge with going before the Power Fists and Axes. Grave Wardens also get a minor buff, with their Toxin rule replaced with Poisoned (3+) which is clearly better giving they occupy a heavy support slot.

 

Prior to these updates I was of the opinion that the three weakest legions in the game were Emperor's Children, Sons of Horus and Night Lords. Apparently the designers agreed with me, because they decided to buff the Night Lords too. Talent for Murder now gives the bonus to both Hitting and Wounding in CC, so expect some large squads inside a Night Lords army designed to get the most out of this rule. Combined with the new Night Raptor Troops RoW, there are now TWO nasty builds this legion can take around its unique units. Of course, the buff to From the Shadows from 6 to 5+ also helps considerably so expect some mean spirited tactics from these guys!

 

In regards to the nerfs,

 

The biggest one I see is moving Tyrant Terminators to Heavy Support. This guts the Perturabo Pride of the Legion list built exclusively around them, which is what I like to see. That army was potentially very cheesy, DSing first turn and then showering you with missiles... now if an Iron Warriors player wants to do that he needs some normal troops to back it up which dampen the tactic slightly.

 

Alpha Legion headhunters lose Preferred Enemy. This sort of makes sense since it didn't stack well with Alpharius' rule, but its a bit of a wash when you consider they now get free Combi-Bolters and access to Combi-Weapons (and a RoW that makes them Troops). Overall its not huge to Alpha Legion, who are still one of the best legions you can take because of their trickery-based abilities and flexible legion tactics.

[01RTB01]

No offense but why the general overview here? Wouldn't it be better in a summary thread rather than EC specific tactica?

[Hesh Kadesh]

As a Night Lord user, I couldn't disagree more that they were the weakest. They were perhaps second best after RG, and are now possibly better than RG at RG'ing. That said, they've just become better at Terror Assaulting, and if you're NLing, you're Terror Assaulting, pretty much. If you outnumber with NL, it shouldn't be because you have a blob of squad (blob is bad, they are alliterative, therefore it much be true), but because you're ganking several units together.

[Theredknight]

Gang beating astartes.. Jesus wept

[GorgeousGoat]

I've just ordered 15 more Kakophoni models and with the new RoW - welcome to 2 squads of 10, Dreadclaws and Orchestrators with Phoenix Spears.

 

18 Shots per unit at 42" (6" movement at relentless and 36" range to fire). 3's and then 2's to wound. AND you outrange all bolters and suspensor web weapons!

Against a MEQ squad of 3+, they will suffer 3 casualties unless the 2+ Sergeant tanks it (but if he dies, Ld drops by -1 anyway).

Assuming 3 normal marines die, and the Ld of 9 is dropped to 6 - and there's 58.33% chance they will fail. Incurring a further 3-4 further wounds.

 

Phoenix Spears because a challenge at I6 on the charge with AP2 - hitting on 3's (vs non-immunity to Fear and Fearless etc) and wounding on 3's. You should win the challenge, mulch a lot of the squad before they can even hit back as the rest are I5. 

 

One thing that may have been overlooked is that you would have Stubborn troops, and having been playing Dark Angels for years, I believe this to be an underrated perk!

Edited February 11, 2016 by GorgeousGoat

[Theredknight]

Fearless and stubborn mean they take the ld test with no modifier don't forget. So still a chance there.

 

I'm pretty sure the wording is that they are cumulative, so if you targeted one squad with 2 units of kakophoni, you could potentially devastate them.

[Caustic63]

No offense but why the general overview here? Wouldn't it be better in a summary thread rather than EC specific tactica?

 

Because only half of good play is knowing the strengths and weaknesses of your own legion/army... the other half is knowing your opponents. If our opponent legions (or potentially allied depending on the scenario) are also getting changes its important we know them so we can adjust our play accordingly, lest we get caught unprepared. An example of this would be getting charged by Mortarion - since he isn't unwieldy any more I can't count on finishing off his last wound with a Power Axe/Fist since odds are he'd just chop off my character's head. Similarly there's an Alpha Legion player in my area who is already planning a Headhunter list. Since this thread is a tactica (as opposed to a pure Emperor's Children discussion and exhibition thread), I'm trying my best to educate around performance in gameplay and occasionally this involves discussing our enemies and how we compare to them.

 

As a Night Lord user, I couldn't disagree more that they were the weakest. They were perhaps second best after RG, and are now possibly better than RG at RG'ing. That said, they've just become better at Terror Assaulting, and if you're NLing, you're Terror Assaulting, pretty much. If you outnumber with NL, it shouldn't be because you have a blob of squad (blob is bad, they are alliterative, therefore it much be true), but because you're ganking several units together.

 

I didn't say that Night Lords are the weakest legion, but I did say they used to form up the bottom 3 legions in my opinion. This came from a number of factors (some of which are pre-FAQ) namely that their wounding bonus was dependant on outnumbering, which made it situational and unreliable... and therefore it required a degree of planning that other legions (apart from Sons of Horus and ECs) didn't have to pull off. Their other mechanic is Fear, which Legionnaires are quite resilient to due to high leadership (while some legions and units are outright immune to it). And then you get Night Fighting, which took a serious hit between 6th and 7th to be just Stealth. The Chainglaive seems underwhelming when you compare it to Deathshroud Scythes, Phoenix Spears, and the Ultramarines Axe/Blood Angels Blade... you are basically hoping for a Rend when in a sergeant vs sergeant challenge. A 6+ Cover save on the first turn of the game that doesn't stack with other cover seems kinda meh when you compare it to Raven Guard's Camoline which gives you stealth all game long.  You can choose to fall back instead of being Pinned, but either way its basically picking which hole to get the shaft in... and then there is the fact that everyone takes a Morale check if your warlord dies. This seems to be a major liability to me.

 

I'm not saying Night Lords don't have effective builds or some good units though, and Terror Assault is a pretty effective army (though one heavily invested towards dealing with infantry). The bottom line is that I feel they are a difficult legion to play, and the fact that you've triumphed with them proves that you are a pretty good player and deserve to be commended for your devotion.

 

Given the above, it seems clear to me why they have been buffed so much in the last few months.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Caustic63

[MorgothNL]

 

No offense but why the general overview here? Wouldn't it be better in a summary thread rather than EC specific tactica?

 

Because only half of good play is knowing the strengths and weaknesses of your own legion/army... the other half is knowing your opponents. If our opponent legions (or potentially allied depending on the scenario) are also getting changes its important we know them so we can adjust our play accordingly, lest we get caught unprepared. An example of this would be getting charged by Mortarion - since he isn't unwieldy any more I can't count on finishing off his last wound with a Power Axe/Fist since odds are he'd just chop off my character's head. Similarly there's an Alpha Legion player in my area who is already planning a Headhunter list. Since this thread is a tactica (as opposed to a pure Emperor's Children discussion and exhibition thread), I'm trying my best to educate around performance in gameplay and occasionally this involves discussing our enemies and how we compare to them.

 

 

I must agree with this, though the overview could have been a bit more focused on how changed in other legions, affect what we did before, and how we have to change our plans or what we have to look out for.

 

That being sad, I do agree that it is a good thing to keep in mind the rules and changed in other legions. I'm not trying to boost, but I don't have any trouble winning with any 30k or 40K army (neither with EC even before the changes) and this is more than half because of what Caustic said. I would say that over 50% of why I win, is because I know my army 100%, and I know his army 99% (where they usually know 80% of their army themselves). 

 

Knowing what our strengths are isn't all that helpful if you don't know the opponents strengths and weaknesses. Knowing which units of the opponent cause the most pain to your specific list and which of your units need to be kept safer or used differently against a certain opponent, is 90% of the game to me.

 

Target priority and making sure your units face the units of the opponent they are most efficient against, wins all games (that and the will of the dice gods)

It helps keeping games fun to me, cause because of this, I don't need the best of the best in my army, but can take mostly what I like. As long as you use it all correctly and know what you're facing. (it's the Eldar way  )

 

I only play in friendly settings, where nobody takes cheesy armies.. strong armies like salamanders with spartans, landraiders and firedrakes yes.. but no 6 heldrakes and such.

 

Looking forward to playing a game with our new rules  and I'm highly motivated to finish painting my army.

Edited February 11, 2016 by MorgothNL

[Terminus]

So I am thinking of an army list built around Eidolon, a Herald, and a unit of Phoenix terminators. So everyone gets +1" on charge distances and re-rolls of 1s to hit in turn one of melee from the Herald. Eidolon adds another 1" of charge distance. Phoenix terminators turn ties into victories and can now sweep. Then Emperor's Children rules mean you are probably going first and hitting everyone on 3s, and if enemy is weapon skill 3, you are being hit back on 5s.

 

A number of the new rites seems good for this.  The assault marine (especially if they are cheaper) one where they deepstrike turn 1 and are hit and run from then on, combined with a kharybdis for a big block of Phoenix terminators also dropping turn 1 and being relatively safe from enemy fire should be fun.  With Fulgrim instead of Eidolon, you lose an inch of charge distance but gain +2 on combat resolution, so you should be sweeping the crap out of stuff.

 

I almost wish the Phoenix Terminators lost sudden strike for a cost decrease (they are now 10 points more than the 2-wound Justaerin) or some defensive tech. I6 is really overkill most of the time.  I guess with martial pride you can challenge and punk even Praetors with Paragon blades before they get to swing.

 

Only problem is the mandatory challenge rule means most of this increased initiative is wasted except for the one douche who gets to fight that round. Stupid martial pride.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Terminus

[1ncarnadine]

So I am thinking of an army list built around Eidolon, a Herald, and a unit of Phoenix terminators. So everyone gets +1" on charge distances and re-rolls of 1s to hit in turn one of melee from the Herald. Eidolon adds another 1" of charge distance. Phoenix terminators turn ties into victories and can now sweep. Then Emperor's Children rules mean you are probably going first and hitting everyone on 3s, and if enemy is weapon skill 3, you are being hit back on 5s.

 

A number of the new rites seems good for this.  The assault marine (especially if they are cheaper) one where they deepstrike turn 1 and are hit and run from then on, combined with a kharybdis for a big block of Phoenix terminators also dropping turn 1 and being relatively safe from enemy fire should be fun.

 

Unfortunately the Herald has the Rite of Command rule from the Delegatus. It's identical to the version you can see in the January FAQ.

 

Let that sink in. No, I don't know why either.

Edited February 11, 2016 by LetsYouDown

[Theredknight]

I thought he also gave +1 to combat res?

[Terminus]

You talking about Herald?  Maybe the banner will do that, not sure, just know that the allegiance-specific rules are "the blackshields banner confers fear and +1ld to friendly units within 12″. the loyalist banner confers +1ws to all legion astartes within 12″ to a max of ws5. the traitor banner confers +1″ to charge and run distances and may reroll 1’s to hit in assaults to units within 12".  If he does, that's icing. +3 on resolution and win on ties means you never lose even when losing, lol.

 

But yeah, martial pride... crippling.