[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[Charlo]

Kakaphoni RoW seems like a great allied Detachment to be honest.

 

Just a couple of squads of crazy dudes laying down the advancing firepower and securing objectives while being handy in assault due to the EC wargear and bonuses :D

 

Sure they won't get on with your dudes but who cares :p

[Hesh Kadesh]

Butbthey can't secure objectives because they're not Sworn ;)

[Charlo]

Butbthey can't secure objectives because they're not Sworn ;)

Can they not? Fair enough, I won't lie, I know little of the allies matrix/ rules in 30k!

 

But hey, big chunk of firepower and EC flavour for minimal investment if not!

[01RTB01]

Why would the III want allies? Aren't they sufficiently perfect alone?... :D

[Hesh Kadesh]

They want to share their perfection all over everyone.

[Terminus]

I like where this conversation is going... *reaches for nipple clamps* Who's ready for some hot perfection?!

[Slips]

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Family Friendly Board, Guys...

 

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[Caustic63]

Hmm, the Herald consul seems pretty strange. Having both Rite of Command and Support Officer means he must be your Warlord, and yet he can't be your compulsory HQ choice. I'll wait until I get Book Six to call Forge World about this one. Looking past this minor bump though the banner's benefits are pretty nice for melee focused armies, both the Loyalist and the Traitor ones. The Loyalist banner is a nice way to generate a 12" +WS bonus bubble that replicates the effects of Sonic Shriekers except without the being fear-based drawback, while the Traitor banner stacks nicely with our legion tactics given the 12" bubble of bonus charge&run range plus the bonus to Hit when we charge.

 

If I was to deduce a use for a Herald in a typical Emperor's Children army, I would say the Loyalist banner works best inside a Tactical Squad since the benefits are perpetual as long as the bearer is alive while the Traitor banner is better inside a unit deploying aggressively such as via Dreadclaw or in a Maru Skara army where the bonuses stack pretty good... if you roll the appropriate Warlord Trait you can also end up with a hilarious +1" Movement, +3" Crusader Run, +3" Charge in the first turn too though that strategy kinda relies on luck and is HQ intensive.

[Theredknight]

Yes caustic, although he's a support officer, it means that you can, if you like, choose a chaplain or other to be your compulsory hq choice.

See that wild be nice for us, along with the herald in a blob of 20, supported but kakophoni and others as a fist. Chuck eidolon in there and you have one hell of a unit, with a decent chance of getting to combat t2. Or rather, him sewerage with another squad and herald in a despoiler blob.

 

I am trying to decide how to model my fulgrim painting, it's not easy trying to figure out which are the best bits to use!! I will have my herald armed with a Phoenix spear and shield, while the painting gets carted about on a dreadnought base, more for rule of cool, any benefits can be taken from the bearer, but be nice to see that painting on the field!!

[Caustic63]

Yes caustic, although he's a support officer, it means that you can, if you like, choose a chaplain or other to be your compulsory hq choice.

See that wild be nice for us, along with the herald in a blob of 20, supported but kakophoni and others as a fist. Chuck eidolon in there and you have one hell of a unit, with a decent chance of getting to combat t2. Or rather, him sewerage with another squad and herald in a despoiler blob.

 

I am trying to decide how to model my fulgrim painting, it's not easy trying to figure out which are the best bits to use!! I will have my herald armed with a Phoenix spear and shield, while the painting gets carted about on a dreadnought base, more for rule of cool, any benefits can be taken from the bearer, but be nice to see that painting on the field!!

 

Eidolon and the Herald both have rules stating that they must be the army's Warlord unless Fulgrim is present. By FAQ that means they can't both be taken in the same army. Kinda dumb I know, but until they take away Rite of Command this combo can never be.

 

Also, Heralds can't be armed with any weapon that's listed as Two Handed in its description. This also kinda sucks, since it means he can't take a Phoenix Spear.

[01RTB01]

Also means you can't take a Herald and Eidolon too just in case people wondered.

[dark_elf]

No Phoenix Spear on a EC Herald... that's just madness!

 

I now have an excuse to buy the Banner MK3 dude :)

[Terminus]

Well I guess it would be hard to balance a two-handed spear and a giant banner at the same time.

 

So one thing I'm finding while building EC lists is that I'm usually better off going for command squads rather than the special units, especially if you have access to shriekers for everyone.

 

For example:

 

5 Phoenix Guard with Grenade Harness and Sonic Shriekers - 290 points

5 Tartaros Command Squad with Grenade Harness, Phoenix Spears, 4x combi-plasmas, plasma blaster - 293 points (although honestly I'd buy a couple of chainfists in here).

 

Both are WS5, so shriekers would only matter against other elite troops. In the Kakophoni rite (which you are probably running anyway), the Command Squad can also get shriekers for another 10 points. The Guard are innately stubborn, while the Command project a 6" fearless bubble from the standard bearer. The Guard Champion I think has 3 attacks now(?), so that's a small edge to the Guard (but I rather have access to a few chainfists).  So essentially the trade off is you lose Sudden Strike (which isn't very relevant, since the Command Squad is also I5 when charging and I6 in challenges, so the extra point is frequently unnecessary) for all that plasma weaponry, and trade Living Icon (win on draws) for Chosen Warriors (everyone can challenge, so fair trade).  Slot consideration-wise, the Command Squad saves you an elite slot, but Phoenix Guard can be taken as troops in certain rites.

 

So unless I'm buying a boatload of Terminators to stick in a Kharybdis or Spartan with Fulgrim, the command squad seems the better option when only taking 5.

 

Or another example:

 

5 Palatine Blades with Phoenix Spears and Shriekers - 195 points (each additional guy is 32! points)

5 Command Squad with Phoenix Spears - 215

 

That extra 20 points buys you artificer armour, which will go a long way towards making them more survivable in this phosphex world of ours. You also have the option of buying combat shields for a 6++ in combat (plus the unit would look cool with shields and spears), and melta-bombs for all of them. And again Shriekers are available in the default Rite, although the unit is getting pretty pricey now. You lose counter attack, but that's a stupid rule anyway for this unit (why not furious charge?). To be honest, in this example I am not thrilled with either option, but again the command squad seems more bang for the buck. The cost on jump packs for both units is frankly annoying, and something I hope the LACAL reprint (whenever that comes) slashes jump pack cost in half across the board.

 

Or if we're talking full units with extra ablative bodies, regular veterans seem the better bet again. Let's assume we're running Kakophoni rite for shriekers.

10 Palatine Blades, 5 with Phoenix Spears, Shriekers - 305 points

10 Veterans, Sgt with Artificer/Phoenix Spear, 4 Power Swords, Meltabombs, Furious Charge, Shriekers - 310 points

 

Offensively they are very similar, with a bunch of S5 I5 attacks that hit WS4 models on 3+.  The Palatine Blades do have a better AP value on the charge and WS5, which makes them better against elite close combat units, but honestly this unit shouldn't be engaging stuff with a lot of power weapons since all they have is 3+ saves. On the flip side, the Veterans are scoring and can blow the crap out of vehicles or even monstrous creatures. You could even add a couple of meltaguns or heavy flamers in there for extra vehicle or hordes management.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Terminus

[Brother Dallo]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but unless something changed, command squads can't take Phoenix spears, by dint of no longer being characters. I'd be happy to be proved wrong though. 

 

Dallo

[TemujinZero]

Combat shields are 5++ in combat, and counter attack is an amazing rule in an army that desperately needs to make charges.

 

Otherwise I more or less agree, but neither special unit are in the trash category.  They have their uses.

[01RTB01]

Personal opinion is I love my palatines and wouldn't change them. Phoenix terms are better post buff but I haven't run them yet. I'm playing a 2.5k game today so will report later how it goes. That said, clearly within the lists some options are better than others. I think if I was "playing to win" then I'd take a mix of:

 

HQ - Delegatus PotL

Elites - quads

Troops - min vet squads

Fast attack - lightnings

Heavy support - Venators/ vindi lasers

LoW - Typhons

 

Ultimately for me I play emperor's children as I like the fluff and the models. They may not be the best but without them we're the same as everyone else but different armour colour.

[Theredknight]

Oddly enough, even before the changes I have had a decent winning streak against nl, wb, we,dg, alphas, mech, so they are good if you find the balance. Tbh it was mostly a legion list with eidolon in there lol

[Hesh Kadesh]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but unless something changed, command squads can't take Phoenix spears, by dint of no longer being characters. I'd be happy to be proved wrong though. 

 

Dallo

Many people have the tacit agreement of "ignore FW" when it does occur. They can't even take Combi-Weapons, for crying out loud, and Terminator Command Squads are limited to 3 in size, and the Standard Bearer doesn't have the Character special rule, like every other squad sergeant in the game.

 

And because of this oversight, some nobody Sergeant from Training Company Delta Epsilon Nobody Cares.com newly promoted after his previous sergeant died can whip a Phoenix Spear out of the armoury, but the bodyguards to a Lord Commander can't, because of FW's chronic inability to write sensible, entirely fluffy, or effective, or even logical rules.

 

Command Squads are among the most poorly edited units in the book. While that is what the RAW states, I'm sure nobody else wants me to go into my verbal diatribe listing every other RAW broken thing in the game at the moment. If it's a more competitive setting, it might be worth checking with the Tournament Organizer beforehand. If not, who cares? 

[Terminus]

Combat shields are 5++ in combat, and counter attack is an amazing rule in an army that desperately needs to make charges.

 

Otherwise I more or less agree, but neither special unit are in the trash category. They have their uses.

But it's only kicking in if you're charged, in which case you've already failed. I would rather have furious charge so I can ensure that I crush in the combat when I get that charge for S6 AP2 I5 hitting on 3+.

 

Maybe if palatines had artificer armor.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Terminus

[01RTB01]

I played 2.5k today in a specific scenario. Full report forthcoming but bottom line for me is that palatines rock, provided they don't get charged...and Kakophoni genuinely rock with the new RoW.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Bear in mind that Counter attack still isn't charging. It's only a 1 attack bonus, so no Furious Charge, nor do you trigger the Power Lances/Phoenix Spear charge effects. 

[TemujinZero]

For some reason I was thinking that counter attack gave them the benefits of charging. Previous edition perhaps. Since it doesn't, it's a pretty terrible rules mismatch.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I'm AFB, but it is even worse than it appears, as it is only models which move via Pile In which get the bonus attack for CA. If your opponent can mob most of the squad, you can lose out on 7 or so bonus attacks.

 

A nice Rite of War for EC in general, or at least their palatines, would be to give them a 'Counter Charge' special rule, which lets all models always count as charging in the first round of any combat. Eidolon would become even nastier now that he's WS7 on the charge too.

 

Especially if Long Dead Saul gets a redo. Giving your entire army the abili

[Terminus]

It's not that dire.

 

“If a unit contains at least one model with this special rule, and that unit is charged, every model with the Counter-attack special rule in the unit gets +1 Attack until the end of the phase.

If, when charged, the unit was already locked in combat, the Counter-attack special rule has no effect.”

 

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks.

 

For what is worth, I'm playing with an EC list in the army list subforum, and 5 palatines with shriekers and spears are 10 points cheaper than 5 veterans with shriekers and swords (spear/artificer on sgt).

[Hesh Kadesh]

I shwould stop smoking tealeaves when i write...