[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[Theredknight]

If you intend to charge him in there, it would be worth the points on the chance that you can kill the enemy character before he kills you (force challenge)

[Charlo]

If you intend to charge him in there, it would be worth the points on the chance that you can kill the enemy character before he kills you (force challenge)

 

Yeah that's my thinking.

 

You just walk a load of Kakaphoni up the board and they'll just dakka al the way until they charge the remains with spears, striking before and real retaliation happens.

[01RTB01]

If you're running 3 squads that's 75 points on spears that could be invested elsewhere? They're long range troops so arguably shouldn't be in combat. Against anything dedicated they'll get hammered. Anything weak they'll tie up. On a practical level how do you wield 2 weapons both requiring two hands?

[Theredknight]

Depends how you use them, you could tandem them.

I'm going to try mine moving up, and closing with my cc squads. I have 2 squads. So they will shoot on the way, then be used as a second line troop to take objectives or shift other off them.

2squads of kakophoni shooting at you and charging isn't to be trifled with.

 

They come stick with cc weapons.

[Charlo]

Depends how you use them, you could tandem them.

I'm going to try mine moving up, and closing with my cc squads. I have 2 squads. So they will shoot on the way, then be used as a second line troop to take objectives or shift other off them.

2squads of kakophoni shooting at you and charging isn't to be trifled with.

 

They come stick with cc weapons.

Yeah, combined with EC buffs that is pretty good.

 

Gah, curse EC for becoming a better Legion, my interest in them us renewed!

[Terminus]

I will forever rage against Phoenix spears on Kakophoni.

 

1. Cost for a situational upgrade.

2. Encourages melee for a low impact melee unit when you really should be mowing stuff down at range and even against melee combatants I would rather they charge me for the overwatch.

3. Marine models are not dynamic enough for you to make a guy who looks like he can juggle a giant spear and a double bass guitar. Can't be done.

[helterskelter]

Nothing something like a doom siren couldn't fix. Wouldn't actually be a doom siren obviously. He'd be the bands vocals Edited February 28, 2016 by helterskelter

[Charlo]

I will forever rage against Phoenix spears on Kakophoni.

 

1. Cost for a situational upgrade.

2. Encourages melee for a low impact melee unit when you really should be mowing stuff down at range and even against melee combatants I would rather they charge me for the overwatch.

3. Marine models are not dynamic enough for you to make a guy who looks like he can juggle a giant spear and a double bass guitar. Can't be done.

 

If I do EC, going to do it just to make you rage then :D ;)

 

But in all seriousness, EC seem like the premier Melee legion now to an extent.

 

Hit hard, strike faster :D

[Theredknight]

Lol play them how you want. Il put spears on mine for fun, and it will be glorious.

[Terminus]

Nothing something like a doom siren couldn't fix. Wouldn't actually be a doom siren obviously. He'd be the bands vocals

Ok, I take it back, it can be done. Bonus points if you model the phoenix spear like a mic stand and he's straddling it provocatively. I have like 30 of those old 2nd edition noise marines, one of those tube heads would be fun.

[Caustic63]

 

Nothing something like a doom siren couldn't fix. Wouldn't actually be a doom siren obviously. He'd be the bands vocals

Ok, I take it back, it can be done. Bonus points if you model the phoenix spear like a mic stand and he's straddling it provocatively. I have like 30 of those old 2nd edition noise marines, one of those tube heads would be fun.

 

 

I think you are onto something here with this Kakophoni Orchestrator conversion idea. It might be a bit expensive to pull together the individual bits, but how I'd do it is to take a Palatine Prefector with the double-handed grip on his sword and replace his backpack with a Doom Siren one from the Noise Marines line. Follow it up by cutting away the sword and carefully gluing the top and bottom parts of a Phoenix Spear to his hands. Basecoat and paint it up and there you go - a conductor worthy of the most cacophonious choir!

 

As a side note, using Noise Marine Sonic Blasters from GW combined with the Legion Marines from Betrayal at Calth is a great way to make budget Kakophoni for a 3rd Company list.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Caustic63

[Caustic63]

State of the Legion: Emperor's Children

 

It's clear by now that Emperor's Children have received a lot of of beneficial changes in the past few months, rendering a lot of what I have said at the beginning of this thread out of date. Unfortunately most of the updates are not publicly available yet since the new Red Book hasn't been published (but was sold at the Weekender in limited copies), I'll summarize them here:

 

Flawless Execution (Legionnes Astartes: Emperor's Children): +1 Initative on Charges, unless they are disordered.

Sonic Shriekers now confer a -1 WS penalty on all enemy models in base contact, unless those enemy models are immune to Fear.

Phoenix Terminators now have WS5, and Phoenix Champions have 3 Attacks.

Kakophoni guns are now Heavy 2, but are otherwise unchanged.

Models in Tartaros Terminator Armour may now perform Sweeping Advances.

 

While more careful players may hold out until they have the new Red Book to start using these rules, our Legion has been underpowered for so long I'm sick of waiting - I'm using them now! Taken together, these updates are pretty significant. Flawless Execution now increases the rewards of the positional play that Emperor's Children armies have been known for - going first in close combat has the potential to greatly reduce the return damage you take but we've had that ability on a limited basis for a long time through the old Shriekers. Now that it applies to every Marine for free, there's no excuse any more not to include fighty and aggressive elements in your army lists.

 

The new Sonic Shriekers are even more useful then the old ones - since they now work in every round of combat and provide an advantage over enemy combatants that can prove essential to winning both inside and outside of challenges. Eidolon now hits the vast majority of enemy characters on 3s, our Consuls now hit enemy Consuls on 3s, and Phoenix Terminators/Palatine Blades are now going to be hitting almost all their opponents on 3s (rare is the WS5 opponent thats immune to Fear).

 

With all the buffs they have been given Phoenix Terminators now appear to be a bit similar to Palatine Blades, except that one has Terminator Armour, but there are differences in their respective roles. One of the positive consequences of having a lot of choice in regards to filling a particular role is that there is more potential for optimization through picking the best unit for the task at hand. In this case, Phoenix Terminators are tougher to kill and have Stubborn while Palatine Blades are capable of massive damage output but are somewhat fragile.  Either of these units is a good 'melee shock unit' that wipes out units of MEQs and possibly even TEQs, but when it comes to when I would take either one, I'd:

 

Take Phoenix Terminators in a Dreadclaw/LR/Spartan when:

 

- My RoW is Pride of the Legion (because they are Troops of course)

- I don't want to take up a Fast Attack/Heavy slot with my Transport

- I'm running a Spartan Deathstar with Fulgrim/Eidolon/EC Praetor and/or Chaplain/Medicae

- I want to run a powerful unit that doesn't require any attached characters

- I want my killer unit to Seize an Objective after they win

 

Take Palatine Blades in a Dreadclaw/LR or with Jump Packs when:

 

- I want to attach a character to the unit such as a Chaplain or Fulgrim and run a 10 man transport

- Run a fantastically deadly melee unit that my opponent MUST deal with

- My RoW is Wraith of Angels or Drop Assault Vanguard and they have Jump Packs (because Hit and Run works really well on them)

- I want my killer unit to have some answer to Dreadnaughts/Knights

 

The changes to Kakophoni are a whole other class of amazing. In no other Legion has a single choice been so profoundly affected by a rules change then with these guys - gaining a shot on their guns and having a RoW that makes them Troops and Relentless is so good its almost a no-brainer and a default choice when playing Emperor's Children (unless you have a really good plan with another RoW). The reasoning for this is very simple - they have high strength, long range, mobile multiple shot weapons that are capable of snowballing their damage at a moments notice (throw some dice, and you'll see how easy it is for them to remove 3-4 Marines and then trigger a Warp Breach killing 3-4 MORE Marines that could even possibly be out of LoS, and of course Pinning). Back this up with Stubborn and Sonic Shriekers and you have to ask yourself - how many other legions have a Troops choice this deadly? The answer IMO is none. They have Get's Hot! but this drawback can be mitigated - either go for a 5 on the Command Traits table or plant them in a Fortification with Ammo Reserves.

 

So 3rd Company Elite is a really good Rite of War... what about the other ones? I'll focus on the RoW I think are most usable as EC.

 

Armoured Breakthrough with Predators as Troops (with basic Autocannons & Sponsons only) plus a Tank as HQ and Elite Sicarians, and all your vehicles apart from Land Raiders and Super Heavies are Fast? Excellent Rite of War. Vehicles are good for firepower, but really bad up close so you're going to need some combat specialists to repel assaulting units... and EC certainly has our share of them! The Drawbacks mean nearly nothing since our CC units are going to be in transports anyways. No Deep Striking is kind of a drag though... boo @ no Dreadclaws.

 

Sky Hunter Phalanx with Jetbikes as Troops is a really good EC RoW in my opinion, since as a general rule our legion loves mobility. However there are a lot of units you cannot take in this sort of army, so it requires an extra level of thought and planning. Expect to have full Fast Attack slots, so Phoenix Terminators make sense in this army since they can take dedicated Dreadclaws in Elites while the Jetbikes take care of the anti-armour. Yeah... 3 units of Jetbikes, 2 units of double Javelins, a Primaris Lightning, Phoenix Terminators in a Pod... I think I'm getting something!

 

Orphans of Betrayal is not too amazing, but it kinda makes sense for a Loyalist EC army that feels a bit left out of the whole "3rd Company Elite" party since there are very few drawbacks. Take this if you don't really have a RoW and just need something to fill in that line in the spreadsheet.

 

Sacrificial Offering is an interesting strategy if you want to find some use for your old Imperial Guard models. Essentially, everything on the EC side Outflanks while the mortals just die and give your opponent no VP. Very much an Emperor's Children trick! (in fact they are mentioned by name in the description)

 

I'll play around with some of these Rites of War and see what interesting lists I can come up with. Glory in the pursuit of Perfection!

Edited March 4, 2016 by Caustic63

[Theredknight]

Touched a few up (they love it)

My extra kakophoni have arrived so il be busy!!

 

Eidy

 

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g449/ben_fabz/Mobile%20Uploads/7F322ECE-6F93-43B2-93C1-CEC70737EAB0.jpg

 

My Fabius finished

 

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g449/ben_fabz/Mobile%20Uploads/0BF91732-240E-4C74-B5E7-F2C7C1749044.jpg

 

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g449/ben_fabz/Mobile%20Uploads/59C0E341-83F8-4AA5-90F0-4FC1FD081B9B.jpg

 

Oh and a kharbydis

 

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g449/ben_fabz/Mobile%20Uploads/F33670BB-1A77-4139-9CAF-BFDE3CDFB0C0.jpg

[Lord Asvaldir]

Looking good, big fan of Eidolon with the helmet opposed to no helmet. 

 

@Caustic, I'm not sure kakaphoni are the best troop choice around that no legion can match. Yes of course they are good, heavy 2 s6 weapons is great, but I feel like that much gets hot is a drawback. 20 gets hot shots a turn, and you could very well be losing a marine a turn. I also don't think it's as easy to migrate as you suggest-there's only a one in three chance of getting the warlord trait you want without Fulgrim, and you can't always take fortifications. That being said, they are definetly much better than the old rules for the kakaphoni, and EC overall have received some greatly needed buffs. 

[01RTB01]

I've played kakophoni with the new rules in 3 games, 4th later today (hopefully). They are too good not to use. There's no other troops choice with that firepower. Admittedly they've whittled themselves down over 5 turns due to gets hot but they've done far more than my tac marines. I personally think they're perfectly balanced and without gets hot they'd be far too good. Doubling the shots has meant that bio psychic shock is so much more likely to go off and its evil! Bring on the III company of the III legion :)

[Theredknight]

Did you actually get them to fail the magical ld test and manage to get the additional wounds? That's something I hope to finally use! Remember they are cumulative

[01RTB01]

Did you actually get them to fail the magical ld test and manage to get the additional wounds? That's something I hope to finally use! Remember they are cumulative

Yup. Vs salamanders when they shot at a tac squad they killed an additional 4-5 and the assault squad lost 6.

 

Another game - v small game, a 5 man squad killed a single devastator, they failed, unit wiped out.

 

I'll see how they fare vs the iron tenth later...

[Terminus]

Noooooooo!!! Eidolon has the coolest bare head model in the game! If you're going to use the boring helmet, send me the other head! I'll pay you a few bucks for it.

As for palatines, I'm not a fan. They are basically just cheaper and squishier Phoenix terminators, unless you buy them jump packs, but then they are craaazy expensive. For foot-slogging combat marines, if you're playing 3rd company (the default rite), furious charge veterans are much much better and with meltabombs & specials can do something different as well.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Terminus

[01RTB01]

Well, kakophoni were awesome. First volley killed 3 missile marines, exploding heads left 2 left :) over the game they whittled away at opponents.

 

Palatines with jump packs, eidolon and chaplain were deadly on the charge. They'd have gotten away with it if it wasn't for the knight that went nuclear having been thrown at them by my leviathan :D

[Terminus]

I wish their jump packs cost a flat 50 for the squad like Reavers.

[Theredknight]

That'd be nice, you can get 15 jump packs for a lovely 50 points, that's worth it in my opinion!!

Well I cleaned up and trimmed my kakophoni last night, so assemble and start painting later!

[nightwrench]

I have played two games with the new rules and the ROW.  The bad...Adepticon, as far as I know will not be allowing the new thin book as it is not out officially yet. 

 

That being said.  I have been running a 10 man of vets with a spear and a mixture of 4 power weapons, MB and FC as the vet tactic.  They have killed 8 cat terms in one game and wiped out 5 cat terms in another game before they swung.  The I7 preator or Eidelon is stupid good especially when hitting on 3's with sonic shriekers.  Oh I forgot the vets also helped to wipe out a squad of new dark furies in the shooting phase.  Do not let them charge you...the fact they all have the raven's talons is painful at best.

 

I have actually been running Kakophoni in 5 man squads with rhinos are very strong as well.  I haven't had the points to take 10 man squads but the 5 man squads have been very efficient.  I run them together so another squad would be great but I am not quite ready to drop the rapier grav cannons and the outriders...btw outriders with a phoenix spear is stupid good.  I am planning to try out jet bikes next.  I am trying to figure out how to get rid of the Spartan and move too a DreadClaw with the outriders moving to a command squad.  Not sure yet.  I tried out the new contemptor chasis...I like it a lot. 

 

Oh I should mention I have been using HCB predators...have been strong both games.  Locked down a land raider in one game until it blew up then wiped out the 5 man cat squad...being stuck at 45+ inches in table corner deployment is bad vs those predators and played lets kill tactical blobs another game. 

 

I also roll my shooting attacks one a time for each Kakophoni I have 10 dice in my hand but I do one at a time.  I hear people now saying that takes to much time.  It doesn't when you do not have to discuss who is getting hot.  I have also found the 3rd and 4th marine in each squad is way to excited to shoot twice and is the one who rolls a one every time...

[Theredknight]

I am just painting my other 20 this week, giving me the option of 30, maybe good for this slather point games.one in a rhino, one in a dreadclaw, and maybe one on the table getting some sound waves down!

[nightwrench]

It is nice to be able to get out of the rhino and shoot with relentless.  My meta is heavily populated by Typhons.  I like to provide mobile LOS blocking rhinos for the typhon to shoot until my anti typhon stuff gets there.  I have found the vets in a Spartan are a good counter to the typhon.  It actually struggles against a Spartan unless you are like me and you thunderblitz it! 

 

On a side note...has anyone had success with the blades?  I am tempted to get some to use as my veterans.  I see them as the fourth or fifth best CC option in EC.  Now they might even be behind normal Tart terms.  I assume a dreadclaw is necessary for all of them as the jump packs are cost prohibitive. 

[Caustic63]

It is nice to be able to get out of the rhino and shoot with relentless.  My meta is heavily populated by Typhons.  I like to provide mobile LOS blocking rhinos for the typhon to shoot until my anti typhon stuff gets there.  I have found the vets in a Spartan are a good counter to the typhon.  It actually struggles against a Spartan unless you are like me and you thunderblitz it! 

 

On a side note...has anyone had success with the blades?  I am tempted to get some to use as my veterans.  I see them as the fourth or fifth best CC option in EC.  Now they might even be behind normal Tart terms.  I assume a dreadclaw is necessary for all of them as the jump packs are cost prohibitive. 

 

Fourth or Fifth best CC option for EC? I suppose Flawless Execution, 3rd Company and Tartaros Terminators have improved the standing of standard Terminators and Veterans, plus the buffs to Phoenix Terminators. Having said that, Palatine Blades still have superior CC stats and weaponry to both Legion Terminators and Veterans. I've run them out of a Dreadclaw, and I can state that they easily make a mess of all but the most dedicated CC units and heaviest of vehicles. Having a Rending Sword base, and cheap upgrades to Power Swords and Phoenix Spears really makes the difference in a side by side comparison with Veterans (plus WS5, Chosen Warriors, and Counter-attack). You are correct that the Dreadclaw is the better option, because it not only gets them into the combat they want to be in, but it also protects them prior to delivery.

 

I have played two games with the new rules and the ROW.  The bad...Adepticon, as far as I know will not be allowing the new thin book as it is not out officially yet. 

 

That being said.  I have been running a 10 man of vets with a spear and a mixture of 4 power weapons, MB and FC as the vet tactic.  They have killed 8 cat terms in one game and wiped out 5 cat terms in another game before they swung.  The I7 preator or Eidelon is stupid good especially when hitting on 3's with sonic shriekers.  Oh I forgot the vets also helped to wipe out a squad of new dark furies in the shooting phase.  Do not let them charge you...the fact they all have the raven's talons is painful at best.

 

...

 

Oh I should mention I have been using HCB predators...have been strong both games.  Locked down a land raider in one game until it blew up then wiped out the 5 man cat squad...being stuck at 45+ inches in table corner deployment is bad vs those predators and played lets kill tactical blobs another game. 

 

I also roll my shooting attacks one a time for each Kakophoni I have 10 dice in my hand but I do one at a time.  I hear people now saying that takes to much time.  It doesn't when you do not have to discuss who is getting hot.  I have also found the 3rd and 4th marine in each squad is way to excited to shoot twice and is the one who rolls a one every time...

 

It's nice to hear you've got some experience in with the new RoW. The performance you describe with your Vets is kind of surprising, considering the only AP2 weapon they possess striking in initiative order is the sergeant's Phoenix Spear. It's certainly possible to kill between 5-8 Cataphractii Terms on the charge, but its unlikely without the specialized equipment and superior stats the Palatine Blades have. I typically run my Palatine Blades in a unit of 9 giving the Prefector and two Blades a Spear (for a total of 3) while the rest just use their Rending swords. I then attach a character such as Eidolon without a jump pack, Fulgrim (reducing to 8), a Primus Medicae or a Chaplain.

To put it simply, Veterans are more all around flexible (thanks to ranged weapon choices, scoring and meltabombs) while Palatine Blades are pure bloody murder in close combat.