[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[Elazar The Glorified]

@Caustic63: Fulgrim can only pick HH book warlord traits or traits from the Strategic list

[Sanct]

Try the index in the back of the rulebook for either the 6th or 7th edition.  There might be an entry with a page number for "Heavy vehicles" 

 

I'm a fan of my forgelord with power maul, rad grenades, bike and screamer. Fail a single save @ I7. Go on. I dares ya.

Add a cyber familiar and one of the shield/field options for a 4++.

 

Palatine can take the phoenix spears as well but I wouldn't go all the way with them (or the other options).  Keep some vanilla.

 

Fulgrim is limited to the strategic traits or the 30k traits. No Coordinated Assault or Target Priority trait for him Caustic.

[Elizablumi]

@ Raktra and Sanct:

Thank you, I didn´t think about it, because this rule was always irrelevant for my marines (In 40k I play Dark Angels).

 

@ Caustic63:

Ok, now I know what you are talking about, but I don´t agree with everything.

You can´t pick every warlord trait.

I need to try it, but Paladine of Glory still sounds like the best warlord trait.

 

I can agree with templars, palatine blades and special terminators beeing stronger in cc, but most other units shouldn´t be that big of a deal.

Even units of 10 terminators should have a hard time.

Lets make some math (My squad is equiped with 2 powerswords, 2 poweraxes, 1 fist and the primus medicae has a phoenix powerspear).

I have 21 S4 I10 hits ( 1,75 dead terminators)

Next the primus medicae attacks 3 times with his phoenix power spear (0,89 dead terminators)

Most of the terminators I´ve seen are equiped with a lot of poweraxes and 1-2 chainfists.

To make it easier, let´s assume that all of them are equiped with poweraxes.

Next come 51 S4 Attacks (2,13 dead Terminators)

Now the left over terminators terminators (5,33) attack at the same time like my axes and fists.

I kill 2,167 terminators and they kill 2,37 assault marines (Don´t forget the fnp).

That makes 6,94 dead terminators.

Ok, that doesn´t cover the defensive fire and maybe 1 or 2 terminators have swords, but this wouldn´t change the result very badly (maybe 2-3 additional victims on my side).

After this the terminators are very likely to fail their moraltest.

 

I really like palatine blades, but they are very fragile with their power armor and every victim hurts you a lot more than a dead assault marine.

Their problem isn´t the first close combat, but everything which happens after that.

Their big advantage is the higher Initiative when they are charged.

Assault Squads are very expensive (maybe a bit to expensive), but you can´t compare them to assault marines from 40k.

The incredible number of attacks and 5 well protected power weapons make them a lot better.

 

Fast units:

 

You are right, snatching of objectives is a big strenghth of fast units and as a player of dark angels I really like bikes with plasma. :-)

I have to admit that I havent´t got that much experience with the 7. edition, but I have the fealing that objectives became even more important.

If you play the the new missions you often get points for sitting on an objective.

This is one of the reasons I wanted to take units which can sit on an objective without loosing effectivity.

I´ll have to see how it works.

 

Please don´t think that I´m against all your ideas or suggestions.

I appreciate other views and many of your ideas made me overthink some units, or gave me ideas for other lists, which could be fun to play.

Maybe I just like the scorpius, while you like fast units like outrides or javellins? :-D

I like them to (but not as much as the scorpius :-D) and I can see them in other cool lists, but I don´t think they make my list better or offer my list something which is missing.

[Theredknight]

Iv got a scorpius to put together yet, are they that good to dig marines out of cover?

[Raktra]

@Eliza - No problem!

[Elizablumi]

Nope, the only downside of the scorpius is, that it doesn´t ignore cover.

For 115 points you get 2-4 small blasts with S8 and AP3.

Because of barrage you can hide it behind cover, shoot on the side armour of vehicles and try to snipe some vexillas,characters,...

 

About your list:

I think you don´t have enough firepower against tanks and you spend a lot of points for characters.

The rest looks solid.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Elizablumi

[Theredknight]

I don't know about that, ranged anti tank maybe, but chainfists p fists etc cc is where we are at.

 

I intend to be wrecking face in t2!

 

If I'm not using Maru skara, I can swap the champ.

[Caustic63]

For this next list I'm going to demonstrate a possible use for the Maru Skara Emperor's Children build. In this army I've also included Fulgrim, but you can swap him for a Praetor with a Jump Pack and a Fire Raptor and still have a very effective list.

 

Fulgrim gives the army Conqueror of Cities because that is tactically the most useful in many games (sparing your units most of the detrimental effects of moving through ruins). Master of the Ambush can also work well, allowing you to position the units you choose to remain on the board.

 

In this list units marked with a * are the ones I have chosen to follow the Maru Skara, and all of them arrive Turn 2. In addition, the Land Speeders and Outriders Outflank and arrive separately using Fulgrim's reserves bonus to ensure speedy arrival.

 

Played right, an army like this would be capable of being almost entirely inside your opponent's deployment zone on Turn 2.

 

Rite of War:    Maru Skara            
                
HQ:                 
                

Legion Praetor

> Paragon Blade

> Iron Halo

> Jump Pack

> Meltabombs                                                 175

[Joins the Palatine Blades]

 

Legion Centurion                
> Consul - Legion Champion                
> MC. Phoenix Power Spear & Bolter                
> Refractor Field               
> Legion Schimitar Jetbike w Heavy Bolter                
> Meltabombs                                                  167

[Joins the Skyhunter Squadron]

                
Troops:                
                
Legion Tactical Squad (x15)                
> Sergeant w Artificer Armour, Meltabombs,                
and Power Axe                
> Legion Vexilla                                                235
                
Legion Tactical Squad (x15)                
> Sergeant w Artificer Armour, Meltabombs,                
and Power Axe                
> Legion Vexilla                                                235
                
Elites:              
                
* Palatine Blades (x9)                
> Prefector w Phoenix Power Spear, MBs                
> Jump Packs                
> Sonic Shriekers                
> Phoenix Power Spear (x2)                            358
                
* Contemptor Mortis Dreadnaught                
> Two Kheres Assault Cannons                       180
                
Fast Attack:                
                
* Legion Jetbike Skyhunter Squadron (x6)                
> Sergeant w Phoenix Power Spear                
> Multimelta (x2)                
> Meltabombs                                                   320
                
Legion Javelin Land Speeder Squadron (x2)                
> TL Cyclone Missile Launcher (x2)                
> Hunter Killer Missile (x4)                                170
                
Legion Outrider Squad (x5)                
> TL Plasmagun (x5)                                        275
                
Heavy Support:                
                
Sicarian Battle Tank                
> Lascannon Sponsons                                    175

 

Fire Raptor Gunship

> Reaper Batteries                                           210
                
ARMY TOTAL                                                   2500

Edited November 26, 2014 by Caustic63

[Leonite]

Gotta ask on that list, why no Apothecaries?

[Theredknight]

Yes, that plus I'm surprised no armour for the blades? With their flimsy 3+ save, they are asking for an ap3 template sending their way!

Maybe stick fulgrim in with them, In a raider or something heavier?

[Raktra]

Well, they're a jump unit using the Maru Skara outflank, so really the opponent should have very little chance to get a template on them without huge risk of collateral damage. Fulgrim's Tactical unit, however... I also find the Consul highly questionable, or at least adding on the sabre and the bolter.

[Theredknight]

I don't know, outflank could mean youl be on the wrong side of the table with deployments etc.

 

I like taking risks, but they are expensive for what they are unfortunately of they had an invulnerable save or something to buff the power armour maybe.

If you arrive and your caught out you could be getting shot at from all sorts for 1/2 turns at the least. Hard to say, but it's a bit of a risk, not enough bodies to carry the damage. Swap that for a unit of assault marines, and stick a chaplain or medic in there with the champ and youv hit a winner.

[Elazar The Glorified]

For the Maru Skara the Legion Champion must be taken as a second compulsory HQ so your list is 1 HQ short

[Leonite]

In which case, free up some points, add a Primus Medicae

[Caustic63]

For the Maru Skara the Legion Champion must be taken as a second compulsory HQ so your list is 1 HQ short

 

Fine. I'll update the list to be the Praetor and Fire Raptor version. Nice catch.

[Theredknight]

Looking at conquest, ec got literally the crappest legion relic out of the lot. Lucid blade.

 

Everyone else got something at least good, and mostly suiting their play style.

 

Ours: a crappy ap3 blade, that can sacrifice attacks for an improved invuln save? Dont you want to be killing the guy, not sacrificing 1 or 2 attacks.

Coupled with the fact it's limited to challenges we are forced to make..and most of our opponents are in art or teminator armour.

I wouldn't mind as much if it was at least ap2. The Raven guard one is, and it's a lot better, for a cheaper point cost!

How do they design it and think 'let's do that' for the legion which is pretty much the bottom feeder on legion traits too..Annoys me immensely.

 

And legion trait, why can there not be a plus to the minus of us being forced to challenge. If we win..nothing apart from supposed glory, if we lose, take a hit on ld. At least if we win let us re roll a ld test dive or another rule?

 

I'm pretty much playing a generic crusade list but using eidolon, I can't really use any legion traits, Maru skara is pretty useless sub 3k, where you have units to spare to put in reserve.

 

We are better in the way that they get their buff charging in combat. Ours only come after we've charged them, and 'if' we win combat we get ours.

Oh you get crusader ..meh.

 

 

Is this why there are hardly any ec players, have I picked a duff legion?!

[Raktra]

Most of the first book's Legions suffered I think, which is a crying shame. Death Guard kind of got it alright, but otherwise... Poor lads.

[Kathias]

The new Lucid Blade Relic doesn't seem to bad. Slap it on a Praetor with a Paragon Blade, and you can just pump yourself down to 4 attacks (+1 from charge, +1 from two specialist weapons) to have a amazing 2++. Your Praetor will be Warhound Titan status and just run through other HQs and troops faster than they can say "Boy that's sharp."

[Sanct]

Theredknight: EC also get +1 Initiative in challenges since the HH: LACL. Building a decent melee character is easier (use a combat augment array!)  The crusader bit is insane when you probably end with a 66% chance to win a sweep and remove a unit.

 

Kathias: I wouldn't have thought you could use a weapon ability unless you used the weapon (so no paragon blade attacks if you buffed to 2++) 

 

In the super point heavy world of 30k I can see a ickle 100point EC character pinning down primarchs for round after round as they bounce off the 2++ but for the RG the Fractal Harrow-Blade is incredible on the right unit (forge lord with rad nades on a bike - all it needs is screamers :D )

[Theredknight]

Problem is though, as we have to challenge every time, and generally, our opponent is 2+ armour save. And as we do, we sink quite a lot of points into characters. And not by choice.

A basic tactical sgt is art arm, p fist, combat shield, to give them a chance against others.

 

I'd rather have the option of giving it to the mandatory champ I have to take if I use the row. And he cannot take a paragon.

I'd give him a p.spear, but that is two handed.

 

You want to be using eidolon as he is pretty much our only perk. (His t.hammer no unweildy on the charge is painful usually)

So a second praetor just to take it is expensive.

Other legions can give them to centurions because they are actually good!

 

Sanct: it's a bit of a waste of points to try and get him into combat just to maybe hold up a primarch, most of their attacks are going to id you, so you only need to roll 1 one, and bye bye. If it was ap2, then..then maybe, maybe you'd take a wound off.

 

Also, you have to win a combat to win the sweep, we do not get any help with that part, where even WE get furious charge.

 

Raktra: I was hoping in conquest, for a bit of an update to bring them into line a touch with the others, even something small, not a crap sword and another buff to NL lol

[Theredknight]

Out of interest, does anyone actually win with ec against other legions? I'm interested to hear what kind of lists you run If you do!

[Kathias]

 

Kathias: I wouldn't have thought you could use a weapon ability unless you used the weapon (so no paragon blade attacks if you buffed to 2++) 

 

 

Don't think it says anywhere in the ability that you have to be using the sword to activate its ability. Fairly certain you can use the Lucid's ability, and attack with the Paragon.

[Caustic63]

@ Theredknight

 

The Emperor's Children aren't one of those 'straight forward powerful' legions like the Iron Hands or Iron Warriors, but rather you have to think about how best to use them. In my opinion they are, above all other legions, about speed and mobility supported by advanced strategic bonuses like Outflank and reliable reserves (being able to know exactly when your units will arrive is highly useful because you can plan around it).

 

In my opinion in order to 'actually win with EC' you have to play to get the most out of these advantages.  If you find yourself getting blown off the board whenever you dare take reserves, then perhaps you should insist that more sources of cover be present on the board prior to beginning the game. If all you have are a few wrecked tanks and some trees for cover, its no wonder gunlines are kicking your teeth in.

 

The most successful games I've played involved using Angel's Wraith or Maru Skara. While the former is quite limiting in terms of the units you can actually take in your army, Hit and Run on Jump Pack Infantry is exceptional for the Emperor's Children because their Phoenix Power Spears and Sonic Shriekers can get repeated use even in an extended combat by running out then charging back in. Plus your Initiative bonuses make Hit and Run far more likely to actually work.

 

In my experience almost no opponents can really be prepared for a well built Maru Skara list, though some legions/armies can slug it out or castle effectively enough to weather the storm and turn the tide.

 

I'll post some battle reports when I get the chance.

 

...

 

Also, with the new release of the 7th edition FAQ it's become apparent they aren't going to amend Sonic Shriekers (currently by RAW an independent character in a unit with a shrieker gives everyone in the unit the Initiative bonus). While I appreciate the opinions of all the posters here who don't play it this way, and the efforts of Bowzlee to contact Forge World Customer Service, without something official in an FAQ I'm going to return to playing this piece of wargear as written and continue to advise its use in this manner with this tactica. I've had a discussion with my local 30K group and the RAW argument makes sense to them (since 40K Emperor's Children have Mark of Slaanesh), as does the need to bring in more Emperor's Children players due to the general perceived weakness of the legion.

[Sanct]

 

 

Kathias: I wouldn't have thought you could use a weapon ability unless you used the weapon (so no paragon blade attacks if you buffed to 2++) 

 

 

Don't think it says anywhere in the ability that you have to be using the sword to activate its ability. Fairly certain you can use the Lucid's ability, and attack with the Paragon.

 

 

 

RaW i agree but I'd stick with the rulebook "he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons"

Otherwise you'd see a lot more charnabal sabres for the duelist's edge ability.  

[MorgothNL]

Out of interest, does anyone actually win with ec against other legions? I'm interested to hear what kind of lists you run If you do!

 

I'm up for another 2500pts battle with my EC vs Salamanders this afternoon. 

I've won before, but that's when me and the Salamander player were still both tweaking our list. Now that he is starting to realise what kind of options Salamanders have available, it just gets harder to impossible to win.

 

EC 'chapter tactics' are just insanely crap compared to the other legions'. Even our rite of war comes with huge drawbacks (lose a vp if i cant kill his eternal-warrior-terminator-stormshield-hammer warlord??). Now with conquest FW had a chance to help EC out, but they murdered EC again with an AP2 blade -.-. 

 

Every time I think of facing the Salamanders, I ask myself, why the hell are pyroclast in artificer armour and palatine aren't?? Why doesn't Tartaros termi armour allow sweeping advance? (or just the phoenix guard). Why are Fire drakes as expensive as phoenix guard, but come with 2! wounds??

 

Anyways, today I'll be taking one of the following lists:

 

If I decide to go with "pride of the legion":

1 Eidolon

10 Palatine Blades -  (5x Phoenix spear, 5x Charnabal sabre, sonic shriekers, melta bomb)

1 Storm Eagle - Lascannons, extra armour

 

9 Legion Veteran Squad (furious charge) - 4 power axes, vexilla, artificer armour, 2 power weapons, melta bombs

1 Apothecary - artificer

1 Anvillus assault pod

 

10 Legion Veteran Squad (sniper) - 2x missle launcher, aritifcer, power weapon, vexilla

1 Rhino

 

10 Legion Veteran Squad (sniper) - 2x missle launcher, aritifcer, power weapon, vexilla

1 Rhino

 

1 Rylanor

 

1 Sicaran Battle Tank - armoured ceramite, lascannons

 

1 Mortis Contemptor - 2x Kheres

 

 

If I go with the EC Maru Skara:

1 Eidolon

9 Palatine Blades -  (5x Phoenix spear, 4x Charnabal sabre, sonic shriekers, melta bomb)

1 Anvillus assault pod

 

1 Champion - Refractor field, sonic shrieker, melta bomb, lucid blade

10 Legion Veteran Squad (furious charge) - 4 power axes, vexilla, artificer armour, 2 power weapons, melta bombs

1 Apothecary - artificer

1 Storm Eagle - Lascannons, extra armour

 

10 Legion Tactical Squad -  aritifcer, power weapon, vexilla, melta bomb

1 Rhino

 

10 Legion Tactical Squad -  aritifcer, power weapon, vexilla, melta bomb

1 Rhino

 

1 Contemptor Dread - 2x TL Lascannons, extra armour

1 Contemptor Dread - Kheres, CC arm with plasma blaster, extra armour

 

1 Sicaran Battle Tank - armoured ceramite, lascannons

 

 

 

I know almost exactly what I'll be facing, but I don't fine tune my list accordingly, because I want to play a list I would also play againt another legion. 

The Salamanders are bringing:

1 preator with salamander shield and hammer

10 fire drakes with shields and hammers

1 spartan

 

1 Proteus 

9 pyroclast

1 Apothecary

 

2 Primus Lightning Fighters

 

2x 10 tacticals in rhinos

 

 

I'll let you know how it ended. I don't see how I will play with close combat EC against an army like this, and win. EC close combat buffs are only useful if you win, and thats gonna be hard vs an almost complete 2+ armour army with hammers and 3+ invuls. 

EC really need some more ap2 or armour 2+, or give them acces to hit and run without 'angels wrath' so the phoenix spears can be valuable.

Edited December 4, 2014 by MorgothNL