[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[MorgothNL]

That actually went quite well!

 

I made some last minute changes to my list, cause I couldn't go with an EC army without jetbikes.

I went for the Maru Skara, and swapped 1 dreadnought for 6 jetbikes.

 

We played Crusade combined with Emperor's Will (we like to use two 6th ed. missions in 1 battle, makes for fun games).

 

I was able to dictate exactly when and where we would be fighting, and also which units vs which unit.

I never shot his spartan or proteus, cause I didn't think I could kill them before the game ended, and I was hoping that the Fire Drakes and Pyroclast with be riding their transport for too long.

 

I used the Sicaran to kill his 2 Rhino's and shoot 1 flyer. Rylanor was walking midfield, just for the combat bonus (but I'd be better of taking a lascannon mortis next time). 

My Palatines (read Eidolon) ate his pyroclast in 1 assault turn, I was able to hide behind a ruin when assaulting, so I could cover-save his melta overwatch :).

 

His Tactical squads didn't pose any threat, and I just dealt with them whenever I had bullets to spare.

I threw my veterans into his firedrakes, just to see how they would do, and I was hoping to lock his Firedrakes for a few turns, keeping them away from any objective.

The veterans lasted 1,5 turn (mostly because of lucid blade on the champion!). It was a waste to have my veterans die without doing real damage to the terminators and not being able to make a single FNP due to S8 wounds), but in the end the terminators didn't make it to an objective.. so that worked.

 

My jetbikes just zoomed in his back to annoy and weaken any unit before I would assault it. 

 

 

In the end I had 2 out of 3 crusade objectives (his spartan had 1) -> so I won crusade (giving me 4VP)

I won Emperors Will by holding my own objective with a Rhino, and he didn't have his (not enough bodies on his side) -> 3VP

I had first blood (Sicaran killed Rhino) -> 1VP

I had linebreaker (Jetbikes) ->1VP

 

He had 1VP...  cause I didn't kill his warlord (and the crappy EC rite of war gives him 1VP for that)

 

 

EC are a though army to play. EC's hard hitting units lack any form of durability (Palatines with 3+ armour and no hit-and-run). You rarely get to use the sweeping advance thing, cause in my experience, you either eat a unit whole, or it eats you. Only with tacticals vs tacticals would this come in handy (which rarely happens).

- Phoenix spears are too expensive (2 handed + only usefull 1st turn IF you assault). But because they are fluffy I'll keep those in my Palatines.

- Jetbikes are just fine, 2+ armour is welcome in an EC army, they are fluffy and they bring keep the mobility in your army.

- Sicaran does its job just fine as well, and also balanced point wise

- Eidolon is ... well... he's the one thing that's really good about EC

- The Maru Skara rite of war is good, it comes with too many downsides, but it does make your army reliable, and insures that you'll be able to dictate the flow of nearly every battle.

 

I'm now looking into maybe giving my Palatines jump packs, just for added mobility after they kill their first target, so they wont get shot to bits while strolling to their next target.

Rylanor will be replaced with a lascannon mortis (I don't think the army I'm running will need the 1+ bonus, I either just win or just lose)

I'll tone down some of the weapons on the veterans, they take up a lot of points, and it's just too much they way I was rolling them.

 

 

My advice when running EC is to take the Maru Skara and outflank your close combat units in a storm eagle or such. The moment my hidden blade arrived, the game was mine to control. All the salamander player could do was try to endure, try to hold objectives, and try to get his expensive Fire Drake unit into combat. Keep 1 or 2 simple troops in your backfield for objectives and for fire support just before you assault. Killing just 2 pyroclast with furry of the legion is well worth it when you plan to assault with models worth 40pts each (TL melta overwatch).

 

Any advice anyone can give me with my tweaks would be appreciated, though I don't want to change this tactica topic into a army list topic. So let's keep it to general tactical advice :D.

Does anyone have experience with Palatines + jump packs? Are they worth the points?

[Theredknight]

Morgoth -

I feel your pain, it's so frustrating when the models are some of the best around!

 

I thought tartoros can sweep, but cataphractii can't?

 

All we can pray for is fnp (or enjoy pain) and some degenerated rules.

 

Salamanders are the best out there, closely followed by alphas.

 

So.. What's are best way of getting around this injustice? Is the sonic shrieker rule for real or just a different way if reading it?

[Caustic63]

Morgoth -

I feel your pain, it's so frustrating when the models are some of the best around!

 

I thought tartoros can sweep, but cataphractii can't?

 

All we can pray for is fnp (or enjoy pain) and some degenerated rules.

 

Salamanders are the best out there, closely followed by alphas.

 

So.. What's are best way of getting around this injustice? Is the sonic shrieker rule for real or just a different way if reading it?

 

Terminators can never sweep, though Tartaros Terminators can still run (and quite quickly with EC).

 

Salamanders are a good legion but they suffer some pretty crippling penalties related to close combat and mobility in general. Think about it... if you are running a legion that wants to be right next to you with Meltaguns and Flamers, do you really want your guys to be faltering when it comes to mobility and close combat potential?

 

Morgoth made a really wise choice by swapping his Dreadnaught for Jetbikes. A smart EC player knows that if his opponent is running a massive, expensive death star that's slow and can't sweep, he can run circles around him with highly mobile units then claim more objectives at the end of the game. Eldar use this technique all the time with their Jetbikes.  Mobile units are also more likely to get the charge off, so Phoenix Spears are intrinsically more useful.

 

The Sonic Shrieker rule reads that "A model or unit with a Sonic Shrieker gains _ ." Out of that I drew that a unit only needs a single Sonic Shrieker to get the bonus, but not many other EC players did from what I understand.

[Slips]

I'm pretty sure someone here got an Email Response from Forgeworld about the Sonic Shrieker only affecting the Equipped unit, no?

[Caustic63]

I'm pretty sure someone here got an Email Response from Forgeworld about the Sonic Shrieker only affecting the Equipped unit, no?

 

Since then an official FAQ has been released that doesn't change the wording despite it being unclear, so as stated in an earlier post while I appreciate the opinion of a Forge World customer service agent (and the efforts taken to get that opinion) my LGS and I have decided to play the rule as written (if mainly to encourage 30K gamers to pick up the legion, which is widely seen as lacking).

 

Not to mention that one time I called Forge World two times with two lists of Horus Heresy questions and asked the same question twice by accident, only to get two different answers.

 

The question was 'How does Vulkan's 'Furnace's Heart' gun work when firing Overwatch/Snap Shots'. I had one representitive tell me that it would fire as normal, and another tell me its a template weapon that doesn't use BS and so can't be used.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Caustic63

[Raktra]

Well, no offence, that's grand and all, but when writing for here either write for the majority or write with both sides of the argument in mind, because so far you've been leaning too heavily on your version of it and it's one in the minority, so it's not helpful.

[Theredknight]

This was what we had received earlier. Regards that.

 

 

 

Finally got the response from Forgeworld:

 

 

Hi there.

 

 

Only the model with the Sonic Shrieker gains the +1 initiative.

 

 

 

 

 

If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.

 

Regards,

Forge World

[MorgothNL]

That is too bad indeed :(, would have been a great way to boost the EC in close combat. The ability to increase the initiative of, lets say, veterans.. would really give them the edge that is needed in an EC army.

 

Still don't get why EC have absolutely nothing that would make you pick them (except for perhaps the coolest minis?).

Anyways, I'm not letting this injustice stop me, and I'll keep hoping that FW will balance it out somehow after people start bashing :P. 

 

I was so satisfied with the list of my last battle, that I bought the 2 Rhinos, storm eagle and sicaran :D.

Those jetbikes will very likely also be included in the army, which just leaves the veterans in doubt (mostly their equipment).

 

I would still like to hear from someone who used Palatine Blades with jump packs..  how did they do? And how did you use them? Even though they have jump packs, I don't think footslogging seems like a good idea with that 3+ and no apothecary allowed.

Also what do you guys equip your Palatines with? (some spears seems good for the AP2, but you're also losing quite some attacks and they are a point sink)

[Caustic63]

Something I've noticed about the Emperor's Children as I've played with them is that they seem to be the closest to a generalist legion the Isstvan book has, and in a game where the legion you pick is by definition the way you specialize your army, this can easily be percieved as a weakness.  By default I find myself comparing them to a vanilla legion (using the legion-wide Furious Charge or Stubborn special rules) whenever I build my lists, and there are definately a few cases where Stubborn and no auto-challenge is better.

 

Regardless, I've observed that EC don't take a lot of unit or army related penalties compared to other more specialized legions like Iron Hands (who get the harshest of penalties for the greatest of benefits). This means that a Maru Skara list, for instance, can take a wide variety of forms... all of which are intended to force your opponent to react to you as opposed to the other way around.  In my opinion though, a list using  this Rite of War benefits the most when it fields highly mobile units like Jump Pack Troops, Bikes, Speeders, and Flyers.

 

On that note, today I've made a list using the Angels Wraith Rite of War.  This type of army is highly restrictive in regards to its composition, but I feel like its mobile nature is complemented by the Emperor's Children rules. 

 

Rite of War:    Angel's Wraith            
                
HQ:    WL Trait:    All friendly units within 12" get +1" charge distance

Lord Commander Eidolon [with AS #1] [WL]                
> Jump Pack                                           205

Legion Centurion [with PB #1]                
> Consul - Primus Medicae                
> Jump Pack & Artificer Armour                
> Phoenix Power Spear, Power Axe, MBs                
> Combat Shield                                     150

Legion Centurion [with AS #2]                
> Consul - Primus Medicae                
> Jump Pack & Artificer Armour                
> Phoenix Power Spear, Power Axe, MBs                
> Sonic Shrieker (or Combat Shield)      150

Troops:                
                
Legion Assault Squad (x15)                
Sergeant w Art Armour, Phoenix Spear, MBs                
> Power Sword (x2), Power Axe            385

Legion Assault Squad (x15)                
Sergeant w Art Armour, Phoenix Spear, MBs                
> Power Sword (x2), Power Axe            385
                
Elites:                

Palatine Blades (x8)                
Prefector w Phoenix Power Spear, MBs                
> Phoenix Power Spear (x2)                
> Sonic Shriekers                
> Jump Packs                                       334

Fast Attack:                
                
Javelin Attack Speeders (x2)                
> Cyclone Missile Launchers                
> HK Missile (x4)                                  170
                
Primaris-Lightning Fighter                
> Kraken Missiles (x3)                
> Ground Tracking Auguries               220
                
Skyhunter Jetbike Squadron (x6)                
> Multimelta (x2)                
> Meltabombs                                      290

Heavy Support:                

Fire Raptor Gunship                
> Reaper Autocannons                       210

ARMY TOTAL                                   2499
 

 

---

 

One thing that bothers me about Angel's Wraith though is that, moreso then Maru Skara, its very much a 2nd turn army where running your troops around in Storm Eagles forces them to start in reserves. This makes your army as a whole shockingly vulnerable to getting wiped off the board first turn, as well as poor reserves rolls. I had been tempted to run Fulgrim and two Despoiler squads in Storm Eagles as the core of my army, but that would mean I would have too little starting on the board.  And yet... running a Maru Skara army takes away the all important Hit and Run that Palatine Blades/Assault Squads love. Oh well, list building is always a collection of hard choices, particularly with such a difficult legion to get the most out of.

[Raktra]

You really think the Iron Hands get the worst penalties? I would've thought Salamanders had it worse there.

[MorgothNL]

You really think the Iron Hands get the worst penalties? I would've thought Salamanders had it worse there.

 

Nah, I've never had a battle vs Salamanders where their penalties hold them back. Their penalties go into effect wherever you get into a situation where you should't have your army in anyways.

 

@caustic63

Aren't you afraid your palatines will get shot of the board completely? This happens to me every time, which is why I removed the jump packs and put them in an Eagle (will be putting them with jump packs in an Eagle next time). That 3+ armour save is horrible and with jump packs those models go for 40+ points per model. 

[Caustic63]

Keep in mind that which Legion suffers the worst penalty is always subject to opinion (based on the playstyle of the person in question) but from the point of view of a neutral legion the Iron Hands are definately one of the more specialized.  I base my opinion on the fact that they have harsher unit selection restrictions then the Salamanders, being essentially denied large scale use of Jump Infantry, Bikes and Jetbikes (as opposed to the Dark Age units that are rarely taken in most armies anyway) while suffering some pretty cutting drawbacks in terms of running, sweeping, and going to ground.

 

Either way though whether Iron Hands are penaltized 'harsher' then Salamanders is irrelevant when what's more important is that as a player you are willing to accept and work around those drawbacks in order to gain access to the benefits.

 

My point is that by choosing your legion (and potentially a Rite of War) you are defining how you want your generalist legion army to be specialized. By taking a legion with less benefits and less drawbacks like Sons of Horus or Emperor's Children you aren't gaining as much as you could be, which is a valid point of arguement.

 

In regards to the Palatine Blades with Jump Packs, I have found that they have frequently taken casualties but can still be quite capable of causing damage even when you only have a few models left. I never run them with all Spears however, instead giving upgraded weapons to only a few models to keep the overall cost down. Charnabal Sabres on their own are quite workable melee weapons, so you could almost get away with no gear at all apart from the Jump Packs and Shriekers.

 

Palatine Blades are not an all-star unit like Tyrant Terminators or Firedrakes, but they have the advantage of hitting first and with a non-negligable amount of AP2 in the process.  I wouldn't send them against anything too hardy, but they are still a better class of melee unit then most legions get.

[Caustic63]

Recently I've had the privilege to play a 30K game against a fairly experienced player who is a fan of Iron Warriors, and wanted to try out the new 30K rules (he's specifically a fan of Tyrant Terminators, Iron Havocs and Hammer of Olympia). I saw this as the perfect opportunity to provide an example of my theories about playing the Emperor's Children and maybe learning something new along the way. Prior to starting we agreed to play using the following clarifications:

 

- Vhalen's inbuilt warlord trait supersedes the stipulations of the 'Warsmith' rule which require him to swap out his trait for 'Shatter Defenses'

- If a unit contains a single Sonic Shrieker, then all models benefit from it's effects as written

 

I used the Angel's Wraith Emperor's Children list posted above. He used the following Hammer of Olympia Iron Warriors list:

 

Rite of War:  Hammer of Olympia        
            
HQ:    WL Trait:    One unit in your army rerolls 1s to hit in your DZ (not Gets Hot!)    

Kyr Vhalen [with TS #1]            195
            
Centurion [with Tyrant Terms #1]            
> Consul - Master of Signal            
> Artificer Armour & Combat Shield            
> Power Axe            125
            
Troops:            
            
Legion Tactical Squad (x15)            
> Sergeant w Art.Armour, PF, MBs            
> Legion Vexilla            
> Additional Close Combat Wep            280
            
Legion Tactical Squad (x15)            
> Sergeant w Art.Armour, PF, MBs            
> Legion Vexilla            
> Additional Close Combat Wep            280
            
Legion Tactical Squad (x15)            
> Sergeant w Art.Armour, PF, MBs            
> Legion Vexilla            
> Additional Close Combat Wep            280
            
Elites:            
            
Apothecarion Detachment (x3)            
> Art.Armour, Augury Scanner            180
            
Tyrant Terminator Squad (x5)            295
            
Heavy Support:            
            
Sicarian Battle Tank            
> Lascannon Sponsons            175
            
Whirlwind Scorpius            115
            
Iron Havocs (x8) [Reroll 1s to Hit]            
> Autocannons            
> Augury Scanner            265
            
Predator Squadron (x2)            
> Plasma Destroyer (x2)            
> Heavy Bolter Sponsons (x2)            260
            
Fortifications:            
            
Aegis Defense Line            50
            
ARMY TOTAL            2500
 

-----

 

30K Emperor’s Children versus 30K Iron Warriors @ 2500pts. Using Standard 40K Battle Setup:

 

Pregame: We rolled the 5 objectives scenario, and Dawn of War setup. Secondaries are Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord, and First Blood.

 

Prior to setting up objectives I noticed the terrain was a little too sparse, so I insisted on adding more. My opponent agreed (somewhat reluctantly), and we placed a wrecked Felblade (well sort of…), a wrecked Baneblade, and a wrecked Rhino on the table. As the Emperor’s Children I got lucky and won the roll-off for deployment, choosing to deploy first and go first.  Both sides already have built-in warlord traits and no Psykers.

 

I deployed my Skyhunters, two Assault Squads, and Palatine Blades as follows.  He placed his Aegis Line as shown, followed by the entirety of his forces in a clear gunline setup. Backed up by Kyr Valen’s rules, this looked to be quite the daunting army to face! I silently wondered if I should’ve gone Maru Skara to increase my unit options.

 

 

Turn 1: Iron Warriors rolled a 1 and failed to Seize.

 

Emperor’s Children: I moved up with the Jetbikes and all Jump Pack troops as follows. During the shooting phase I ran with all but the Jetbikes (who shot their Heavy Bolters and Multimeltas) killing one of his Tyrants. Rolling double dice for run moves put me in good position behind LoS blocking terrain. Now to hunker down and pray.

 

Iron Warriors: In the movement phase my opponent shifted his Predators to avoid showing side armour to the right side, sensing the imminent arrival of the Javelins and not wanting to give them side armour. Kyr Valen’s Tactical Squad moves up towards my partially hidden Palatine Blades, while his Tyrants move towards my Jetbikes.

 

During the shooting phase he opens up with his Tyrants and Sicarian on the Jetbikes, causing a tidal wave of wounds and leaving only a single MM Bike left (who passes his Morale check). TS #3 uses Fury of the Legion on my AS #2, firing 30 bolter shots and causing 10 wounds. I fail four saves, but thanks to FNP only two Assault marines die. He repeats the performances with his Autocannon Iron Havocs, rolling a lot of 2s to hit and only downing a single marine.  The Scorpius targets Eidolon’s squad and scatters wide, but manages to kill 2 marines. His Predators throw down 6 pie plates on the same squad, but unluckily misses 4 times scoring a total of 3 hits and killing 1 marine as I pass two 5+ cover saves. Phew, that could’ve been much worse! Valen’s squad rapid fires on the Palatines causing shockingly no damage (lots of misses combined with solid saves and FNPs). In the assault phase, my opponent uses the ‘Hail of Fire’ special rule and does a disordered charge on my Palatines. Tyrants attempt to charge my remaining Jetbike, but thanks to terrain come up barely an inch short. Now into combat.

 

Kyr Valen’s squad takes no damage from Pistol overwatch and successfully makes his charge with an 8 (he needed a 6 with terrain penalty). In the opening round I get the Counter-attack bonus and Kyr Valen challenges, with one of my Charnabal Palatines answering (woot for Chosen Warriors!). In the ensuing combat, Valen understandably beats his opponent (barely) and takes no wounds in return, while the rest of the Palatines and Primus Medicae manage to slip 3 wounds onto his Iron Warriors while taking one casualty from the PF sergeant in return. He loses combat by a single wound, and passes his Stubborn morale check (since Valen is a warsmith). I make my Hit and Run test and FAIL ON A SIX (booo!) so the Palatines stay in combat.

 

Turn 2:

 

Emperor’s Children: Reserves time. The Javelins and Primaris Fighter show up, but my Fire Raptor decides to be slow and remain in reserves. Darn. The Lightning sets up side armour shots on the Predator Squadron, while the speeders end up coming on the right side (my right) and set themselves up for some nice side armour shots on the Sicarian. The last remaining Jetbike dives for cover out of sight, AS #2 takes up position directly in front of his Iron Havocs (losing one member to Dangerous Terrain), and Eidolon’s Assault Squad jumps over to get as close to the Valen combat as possible.

 

In the shooting phase, the Lightning puts 3 missiles and the TL Lascannon into the two predator squadron and gets 3 penetrating hits (rolling explodes on the LAST one ) eliminating one of them, while the Javelins shoot 8 missiles into the Sicarian’s side armour and manage to bring it down. AS #2 kills an INCEDIBLE amount of Iron Havocs with pistols, killing 4.

 

In combat Eidolon’s squad gets its charge shattered by Valen (so Disordered and no HoW) but still makes it in through difficult terrain, as does AS #2.  Combat goes poorly for everyone but Eidolon who crushes the meagre Sergeant sent to oppose him along with 3 other Iron Warriors standing nearby. Valen kills 1, and the Primus Medicae kills one. Everyone else wiffs or bounces off armour/FNP. Iron Warriors pass their Stubborn morale check.  I consider Hit and Run on the Palatines, but turn it down when I realize I don’t want to give my opponent an easy target to shoot at.  AS#2 wipes out the Iron Havocs (barely I might add) and consolidates 3” closer to the Scorpius.

 

Iron Warriors: Tyrants move towards the centre right objective, TS#3 moves out of the ruins towards the Emperor’s Children AS #2, TS#2 moves towards the Valen combat in an attempt to relieve him. Remaining executioner shifts backward and rotates to face the EC Assault Squad near the Scorpius.

 

Boosted by the Master of Signal, the Tyrants blast a bunch of Krak Missiles at the freshly arrived Javelins (they Jink), and score 5 penetrating hits and of course I fail ALL of the jink saves and they both are wrecked (more like Junk saves!).  On a better note though, he decides to put the Scorpius into my Jetbike that’s out of LOS since laying down S8 templates within a few inches is pretty risky. He scores 4 strikes, and gets 3 hits out of the bunch. Almost impossibly he gets THREE ONES! Both me and my opponent agree that the game is getting messed up in regards to absurd dice.  TS #3 rapid fires at my AS #2 in almost melee range and this time their fire is more telling. They score 10 wounds, and I fail 7 saves (argh!) and FNP only bails me out of 2 so 5 marines die. His executioner fires at the same squad and kills 2 (firing around the Scorpius gave most of my squad a decent cover save) reducing them to 4 marines plus the Medicae. Being out of combat is murder against a list like this!

 

In the Assault phase, his TS #2 makes a normal charge against the ongoing combat with Valen, needing a 4 and he easily makes it in. His TS #3 makes a disordered charge against my remaining marines in AS #2 barely succeeding with a six.  Both assaults go poorly for him, as he is forced to choose between Valen and the Apothecary when Eidolon issues a challenge and surprisingly sends in Valen. This ends with Valen not scoring the 6 to wound he needed to ID me, and Eidolon punching his head in. The remainder of the combat goes in my favour, but the Palatine Blades suffer 3 casualties to his TS #2 due to poor saves. I end up winning combat by 6, and thanks to the loss of Stubborn both his units run and both get swept by high Initaitive + Crusader. In the other combat between AS #2 and his TS #3 the sergeant fight each other and both whiff (good for me, since he charged and would’ve easily killed me with the PF) while the Medicae kills two of his guys and he doesn’t manage any wounds. The Iron Warriors lose and stick thanks to the Vexilla, and I make my Hit and Run roll and leave combat and he consolidates.

 

Turn #3:

 

Emperor’s Children: I roll for reserves, and the Fire Raptor arrives (barely). My much reduced Palatine Blades squad Jumps over next to his Scorpius, close to my 5 Assault Marines with Primus Medicae (who freshly used Hit and Run), while Eidolon’s fairly bulky squad jumps over next to his Executioner (they failed two Dangerous Terrain rolls, but pass their armour saves). The Lightning flies into Ongoing Reserves, having been denied any good targets. My Fire Raptor positions itself directly facing his Tyrant Terminators.

 

In the shooting phase, the Fire Raptor opens up on the Tyrants with everything it can muster (two Reaper Turrets, Avenger Bolt Cannon, Missiles) and scores 14 wounds with 17 shots. He fails 3 saves, leaving only 1 Tyrant and the Master of Signal left. With no more shooting available for me, I move on to the assault phase.

 

Eidolon’s squad assaults the Executioner, and promptly wrecks it in a flurry of Power Spear and Thunder hammer blows. The Palatines and Assault Squad assault his last remaining TS #3, and one Assault Marine dies to overwatch. In the ensuing combat he chooses to accept the challenge of my Primus Medicae with his Sergeant and I beat him commandingly, removing two of his squad-mates in the process. With such a sizable amount of power spears at I5 all aligned against him, it results in a bloodbath with the Iron Warriors losing 8 casualties. He gets swept again, and then he throws in the towel.

 

We resolve one last barrage of Scorpius cluster rockets and a Master of Signal Bombardment at Eidolon and his squad for spite (and he nearly kills Eidolon has he fails a look out sir but passes his invulnerable save) leaving them with only 3 models left.

 

Final Score:

 

Emperor's Children:

1 VP for First Blood (Sicarian)

1 VP for Line Breaker

2 VP for Warlord (Warsmith bonus)

2+ Objectives

 

Iron Warriors:

2 Objectives

-Surrendered after 3 turns-

Edited December 15, 2014 by Caustic63

[Caustic63]

Summary and Conclusions:

 

While one sample game does not make a trend, there are a few important lessons that I drew from this experience. Throughout the game I found myself feeling very restricted by Angel's Wraith for not enough benefit, while missing the assurance of reserve arrival that comes with playing Maru Skara. Hit and Run is a good ability though for Jump Pack troops when it works (but should always be used in your opponent's turn), while the two Primus Medicae I had made their points back and more through passed Feel No Pain saves against small arms and Plasma.

 

However my board presence, particularly at the beginning of the game, feels a bit too minimal. If I would've gone second (granted I would've likely deployed differently unless he siezed) then he would've had two rounds to pump me full of firepower instead of one which ultimately could've proven my undoing since I have few models.  At least in a Maru Skara army I can take Tacticals with Apothecaries to shore me up, and potentially run outflanking Palatines/Veterans/Outriders/Dreadnaughts.

 

On the Iron Warriors side, Tyrant Terminators are vicious and when teamed up with a Medicae/MoS/Siege Breaker they can prove incredibly potent against almost any target. After the outcome of this game where he had all his infantry squads swept in combat, my opponent is strongly considering adding Perturabo to his army for Stubborn and fluffy reasons (he's an awesome Primarch anyway, its a shame there's no model yet).  Realistically, the list I was running wouldn't have had a good answer to a Primarch so maybe its time I consider breaking out my Fulgrim for the next few games.

[Theredknight]

Well, iv tried a few games with cool lists, but ec just don't hold their own up to other legions like that so iv come up with a 2k list after a few games.

 

 

Eidolon j pack

 

Chaplain j pack p weapon refractor field m bombs shrieker art arm

 

15 assault marines 2 ps 1 pa

Sgt art armour, c shield, p spear m bombs

 

15 Tac marines combat blades

Sgt art armour p fist

 

10 cc Tac marines sgt art armour, p fist mb

Rhino

 

10 cc Tac marines sgt art armour p spear mb

5 Tac support volkite calivers

 

Javelin w lascannons

 

4 jetbikes w volkite

 

Scorpius

 

2000

 

So I played with a similar list, but had a contemptor instead of the jetbikes and wonder if I should try with that again or not..

 

What do you guys think?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Praetor, Paragon Blade, Boarding Shield

Legion Champion

 

2x Contemptor Dreadnoughts with Multimelta, Graviton Guns, Havoc Launcher

2x Contemptor Dreadnoughts with Multimelta, Graviton Guns, Havoc Launcher

2x Contemptor Dreadnoughts with Multimelta, Graviton Guns, Havoc Launcher

Contemptor-Mortis, TL-Kheres Assault Cannons

 

Tactical Marine Squad, BP+CCW, +2 Marines

Tactical Marine Squad, BP+CCW, +2 Marines

 

Just for fun, 2K Outflanking Dreadnought List. Can probably fit more if I choose normal dreadnoughts, but why not.

[Caustic63]

Well, iv tried a few games with cool lists, but ec just don't hold their own up to other legions like that so iv come up with a 2k list after a few games.

 

 

Eidolon j pack

 

Chaplain j pack p weapon refractor field m bombs shrieker art arm

 

15 assault marines 2 ps 1 pa

Sgt art armour, c shield, p spear m bombs

 

15 Tac marines combat blades

Sgt art armour p fist

 

10 cc Tac marines sgt art armour, p fist mb

Rhino

 

10 cc Tac marines sgt art armour p spear mb

5 Tac support volkite calivers

 

Javelin w lascannons

 

4 jetbikes w volkite

 

Scorpius

 

2000

 

So I played with a similar list, but had a contemptor instead of the jetbikes and wonder if I should try with that again or not..

 

What do you guys think?

 

Okay I've taken some time to think about your list and here's what I've come up with:

 

While Chaplains are pretty good HQs in 30K (where Fearless is more valuable, there are more CC units, and CC is more deadly thanks to sweeping advances) given the new support officer rules and gameplay experience I really think you should make this Centurion a Primus Medicae instead. With such a large unit of Assault Marines, the survivabilty bonus is likely to pay for itself over the course of a game compared to 1 turn of Hatred and Fearless (which really only becomes relevant after you lose combat or take wounds, both of which FNP helps mitigate).

 

You seem to have a lot of troops in this list... too many in my opinion. Tactical Squads and Assault Squads are not very good compared to some of the other options you can include in a Legion army, and you'll find yourself wanting for firepower in many of the games you play despite having lots of bodies.  What about a unit of Veterans? A Fire Raptor? Sicarian(s)? Executioner Predators? I would drop the mechanized Tactical squad and use the points elseware on a more heavy hitter unit.

 

The Javelin you've included has a TL Lascannon, but for the same price you can have TL Cyclone Missiles and 2 HK Missiles. Would it not make more sense to have 4 Krak Missile shots (2 of them twin-linked) as opposed to one TL Lascannon? This is especially true if you are Outflanking to snipe side armour, its what Javelins were made to do imo.

 

The unit of Jetbikes you've taken seems ill-defined in terms of the role its going to play on the battlefield. Do you really need more torrent fire? I would give it a MM instead, and then give the unit Meltabombs. This gives them some punch as armour hunters, and also gives you an answer to enemy Spartans (which you currently don't have).

 

In regards to the support Volkite Calivers, why not take Kakophoni instead? This EC unique unit is essentially the same price as Heavy Bolter Support squads, but comes with a bunch of perks and quirky rules that makes it interesting to play with but also kind of inconsistent.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Caustic63

[Theredknight]

Ok, so iv tried a bunch of things before I came up with this list.

 

I'm going to get a sicarian, because they are so points effective. But I don't currently have the model.

 

Again with the land speeders, I have lascannon ones unfortunately, but could proxy missiles to try out. Personally I prefer the higher chance of getting through armour but hey ho.

 

Due to our negative of forced challenges, I wrote the chaplain in as I intend to be in combat t 2, most times this is possible. What I didn't want is eidolon missing with his attacks and not id his opponent!

To keep them alive I was considering combat shields..

 

Kakophoni are dire and their rules are really really bad, and pretty much pointless.

You get 1 hvy s6 shot, I can only take 5.. They will armour save a good chunk even if all 5 hit. So their special rule has much to be desired for..like our sweeping advance crap.

 

Volkites have a higher damage output and can be an actual threat in the same range.

 

In order for them to have a chance to get their special rule they have to deal about 8-10wounds, of which will leave 2/3 unsaved.

 

Then you might have a chance...but oh, that unit has a vexilla? Or is fearless? Sorry fw didn't think that through, If the profile was assault 2, they might be worth it some more.

 

I believe that in order to get any bonuses, we have to be in combat, otherwise we may as well be a generic legion. I am tempted by 2 15 man assault marine squads in tandem even..

The reason for troop heavy is because only troops can capture objectives,

 

Jetbikes were a sort of spare slot, in my experience they always die quickly.. I could swap about for a primaris maybe. I only took volkites as synergy with h. Bolters. Melta bombs should be added though yes. Just in case, either that it a Mortis dread.

Oh and a final nail in the coffin to not take crapophoni, is gets hot!!!

Please don't buy these models says fw, because we don't want any sold!

[Theredknight]

So has anyone played with ec lately?

Il admit, I have played 6 times, and been tabled all of those.

 

Is there any other way we can enhance our chances of not getting tac sgts killed in challenge combat, I already max out their gear for our crappy legion rules, with the amount of points I spend on them I could get another squad! Tbh tempted to drop the art armour all together.

 

I also over compensate for my awful dice rolling as much as I can.

 

There just doesn't seem another way we can enhance our chances of actually forcing them to lose their combat and forcing them to fail leadership tests and then we get to add d3 to sweeping advances.

 

Unfortunately it is in challenges, this would be great if we could kill their character, it gives us a chance, but usually they have vex as well which bums us out..

 

iv spent so many hours and so much money adapting and making them look so fluffy.. I love the models. But sadly find our legion rules lacking substantially next to salamanders, iw etc etc.

 

So who's running what at 2k?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Could try;

 

Praetor (100), Maru Skara

Legion Champion (85)

 

Tac Squad (150)

Tac Squad (150)

 

That's bare minimum, and leaves you 1515 points.

 

Maru Skara allows 3 outflanking Legion Dreadnought Talons - 3 of those is 375pts run butt-nekkid - so 9 is 1125. A Contemptor Mortis with Twin Kheres for inevitable Air Defence is 180pts for 1305 pts, giving you 210pts of upgrades.

 

Now, in bare form, this gives you 9 Twin-linked Heavy Bolters, 9 TL'd Bolters, and 2 TL'd Kheres Assault Cannons.

 

6 Volkite Culverins leaves you 150pts - so 3 TLLascannons for leaves you 75pts - giving a further 5 Graviton guns gives you;

 

3 TLLas, 6 Volkites, 5 Graviton Guns, 2 TL'd Kheres (and 9 Powerfists).

 

Of course, you don't benefit from the Legion Tactics whatsoever, and the benefits entirely from the guaranteed Turn 2 Arrival of 9 Outflanking Dreadnoughts.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Hesh Kadesh

[Theredknight]

Haha I just have to get 9 dreads! It's a cool idea though, I like the 'March of the ancients' idea.iv got some old blood angel ones I might paint up, then il just get some cheap dv set mm ones and swap the arms

 

I might not capture everything, but surely no one can smash 9 dreads?!

[MorgothNL]

I'm playing my EC almost every Thursday, and I must say, I hardly ever lose .

 

We do play games at 2500pts if one player is using a 30k list, but that shouldn't make much difference.

I've played 30k Salamanders about 4 times, 1x 30k Iron Hands, 2x 40k tau (lost one of those), 40k Nids 2x (lost once) and 1x 40k Grey Knights (just from the top of my head).

 

All of those battles are with slightly different lists (still tweaking my list while buying new models that I'm sure of to stay in the list).

I've been using jetbikes in most of them, but I decided the price (money wise) doesn't weigh up to the coolness or effectiveness in game (I wanted them because they suit EC very well, but one can buy 2 sicarans and the some, for the same price as 6 bikes)

 

The last list that took my EC into victory was:

Eidolon (jump pack)

9x Command Squad (jump packs, 1x power fist, 2x power axe, melta bombs, Shields 9x, Charnabal Sabre 6x)

Storm Eagle (lascannons, ceramite, extra armour)

 

1 Champion (lucid blade, artificer, Power Fist, Refractor)

9 Palatine blades (5x Phoenix Spear)

1 Anvillus Assault Drop Pod

 

10 Tacticals (phoenix spear, artificer, vexilla)

1 Rhino

 

10 Tacticals (phoenix spear, artificer, vexilla)

1 Rhino

 

1 Sicaran Battle Tank (lascannos, ceramite)

 

1 Mortis Contemptor (kheres)

 

1 Mortis Contemptor (lascannons)

 

 

It was all about making sure that the Command squad + Eidolon would be used to the max. They are expensive as hell point wise, but they won the game for me. With this loadout, they can take on a lot. Even a fire drake squad got into trouble with all this AP2 potential (I did make sure I killed a few (3) of the fire drakes before facing them). Eidolon insta killed 2, the power fist insta killed 1, and 1 more died to AP2 rending. Thats 4 models dead (8 wounds) before he even gets to slap back. He killed 5 Members of my squad (without combat shields, all would've been dead). I sweeped the rest. If I hadn't sweeped him, my Palatine were standing by to join the 2nd round (again striking with quite some AP2 hits), and hoping that Eidolon and the fist would kill the remaining if any survived at initiative step 1.

 

Before facing the Drakes my command squad killed a 10 man tactical Squad and after the drakes they finished of 6 pyroclast. 

 

The Storm Eagle is kind of a waste the way i've been using it, but haven't found a better way (yet). It comes in turn 2 in hover mode (so it gets shot to bits, but at least it keeps the guys inside safe.. arriving zooming has killed of the whole squad once in a crash and burn, so thats not happening again).

 

The Palatines are great for supporting the command squad whenever they really need to kill of the enemy before it strikes back (talking about you fire drakes), and they are great at killing anything that doens't have a lot of invun saves. 

 

In the mean time the rest of the army focusses on shooting everything that could threaten my assaults (swarm lord, AP2 blast creatures, vehicles, riptide etc)

 

 

Not really having any problems winning actually..   40k opponents are harder then 30k in my opinion (lots of ap2 shots there and nids with higher initiative then my EC).

 

 

 

Next time I'm going for:

 

Eidolon

9 Palatine

Anvillus Assault Pods

 

Fulgrim

5 Phoenix Guard

Storm Eagle

 

Mortis (kheres)

 

Rylanor

 

Sicaran Battle Tank

 

10 Tacticals in Rhino

10 Tacticals in Rhino

 

So no Maru Skara this time (used it the other times btw), but Fulgrim should do the same more or less.

The idea is simple, just get into combat and use Fulgrims ability + extra warlord trait + Rylanor to win and sweep the whole field , while making sure that my gun platforms kill the biggest threats to my assault groups. 

 

Not sure what I'll face next time. Tau suits might be a problem.. but I'm usually able to chase him away far enough from objectives. Don't see any problem vs other armies (only eldar, but I'm the eldar player of our group ).

Edited January 5, 2015 by MorgothNL

[Sevatar]

9 Command Squad? I thought it went up to 5.

[MorgothNL]

9 Command Squad? I thought it went up to 5.

 Oops

 

I remember realising this when I was done making my army list, but forgot it later and just rolled with it (not on purpose). 

Just used that list once, and actually.. I'm glad they go up to 5. Rolling with 10 was awesome, so awesome that they knocked the Phoenix guard out of thought. But I think I'll stick to the phoenix guard like in my last version of the list then :D. (actually ordered fulgrim with bodyguard today, so they are in! :p) 

[Raktra]

They can go up to 10 as of the LACAL books.