[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[Caustic63]

I'm not sure Storm Eagles can transport Jump Pack troops either. Stormravens have a special exception that allows them to do so but I haven't seen it with the 30K flyers anywhere. Perhaps you could swap your Command Squad for another squad of Palatine Blades? The Dreadclaw combo seems to work nicely for them.

 

I'm surprised you agreed to fight 40K opponents with your 30K army, but I suppose as long as the points level is high enough you could make it work. 40K armies have a different pricing structure, internal balance, and design philosophy then 30K.

 

Case in point - Night Lords being useless versus 90% of the 40K armies out there...

[Sevatar]

How so? +1 to wound is huge (part of the reason I think the NL have the best rules)

[Hesh Kadesh]

Hitting and wounding on 3's or even 2's makes them powerful. In 40k, ATSKNF, Fearless, and Zealot are fairly common. You no longer hit on 3's or get hit back on 5's.

 

You also need to Outnumber - many armies simply run MSU and don't care that X unit is dead or neutralized after one assault, or unit is so Tanky that +1 to wound doesn't matter. Not to mention to get that you need to survove a shooting phase and overwatch and risk not evem being able to reach, unless you shell out for a Storm Eagle, Land Raider Phobos OR Spartan, which doubles the cost of the unit.

[MorgothNL]

They can go up to 10 as of the LACAL books.

I'm sorry, LACAL?

[Slips]

Legions Astartes: Crusade Army List; ie one of the two Red Books.

[Theredknight]

Wow wish we had +1 to wound, might have a chance if getting a sweep off!!

 

I agree we have to spend more on guys, and characters, to get a chance of when you get there,

1 reaching them without being cut to ribbons so much

2 not losing to much to overwatch and actually roll enough to reach them.

3 hit them and make a good chunk out of them

3.5 win the forced challenge.

4 not die to much to incoming attacks

5 win combat

6 hope they fail their leadership test if you do

Then at stage 7 we get our d3 to sweeping advance..

 

Na, I'd rather take the +1 to wound thanks lol :-)

 

Lucid blade..why god (or fw) why do you punish us so, with an over costed power sword and not a sweet blade like our kinsman the blood angels?

 

*Cry cry cry our champs would be so good then, and smash their enemies to tiny bits..much like blood angel regular legion army ones do

[Raktra]

Always bet on red.

[MorgothNL]

Legions Astartes: Crusade Army List; ie one of the two Red Books.

Just looked in this book at my club, but it also says the command squad contains 3 models and has the option of 2 additional (pages 18-19). 

Where does it say 10?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Palatine Blades gots the increased unit size.

[Theredknight]

I was thinking of sending fw a question email, if I did, what questions would you like to ask them about emperors children, And why? I will include it and post it for you to read through if you want?

[Raktra]

"Why are they poncey. Plz respond." Edited January 6, 2015 by Raktra

[Caustic63]

Theredknight, I think that if you want to end your current losing streak with Emperor's Children you should try to make use of the legion's unique units as well as ensuring the other units you take have good synergy with the rest of your army. What I mean is, though 30K legions are unique from 40K Chaos and Space Marines they are still a MEQ army and are subject to much of the same strategies that are known mainly through hard experience.

 

Though logic might imply that 20 Assault Marines are better then 10 Palatine Blades by numbers alone, in practice the Palatines are better because they have higher Initiative, are better equipped, and have more attacks and a higher chance to hit. You aren't likely to be able to engage a foe with all 20 AMs at once, whereas you might be able to with a PB squad. Moreover the PBs can easily fit in a Drop Pod/Land Raider with attached character(s) while the AMs will always have to jump across the board and be vulnerable.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, try Palatine Blades in an Assault Transport and see if they work for you.

 

Also, Legion Vexillas have no effect on Kakophoni because they only allow you to reroll Morale checks (not Leadership checks). In my opinion Kakophoni work best when you take a lot of them... for example two 10 man squads. This increases the chance of their special ability going off (which is very boom and bust) while being very difficult squads to unseat in close combat (Stubborn and Shriekers make them more annoying to deal with then typical shooty squads). I'm not saying that Kakophoni are good, but rather they are okay and have a place in supporting a more fast attack oriented army.

 

Plus the models make good Noise Marine standins.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Caustic63

[MorgothNL]

I was thinking of sending fw a question email, if I did, what questions would you like to ask them about emperors children, And why? I will include it and post it for you to read through if you want?

Ask them when we will see the Eidolon model!

 

Nah, all I'd like to know is how they justify the cost and stats of the Phoenix Guard. They are overpriced.. which I could actually live with..  but the worst is that they are fluff breakers. They should be the pinnacle of the Emperors Children, maybe the best non-hero fighters across all legions.

 

They should have WS5, be allowed to sweep, use the 2handed spear but still get +1 attack or whatever, just something that reflects their fluff. I don't care how much points fw assigns to a unit, I just want them to fit the fluff and then I'll take them regardless of points. 

 

Otherwise I like the legion BECAUSE they don't win in a brainfart. You need to think about your army and your opponents'. I had trouble winning with EC the first 5 battles, but once you learn how to use your own army to its' max potential AND find the weaknesses in the army of your opponent.. you'll have no trouble winning.

 

 

I'm not trying to brag, but knowing your army AND that of your opponent is the most important thing in this game. I have a group of 5 friends, all with 2 or 3 armies. No matter which army of mine I use or even what list, I win 9 out of 10 times. It's all about movement, target priority and just a bit of luck.

For example, one of my friends said it is impossible to win with GK vs my Eldar. So we switched armies the next time, he used the Eldar army I used to eat him, and I used his Gk army with just minor tweaks. He gave up turn 3. 

 

 

I know not everyone takes time to 'study' the codex of the opponent, I'm a bit more 'involved' with the game then most of my friends, but I've proven it makes all the difference. 

 

 

 

Study your army, make sure your units fight the units they are supposed to fight and shoot the units that you can't take in CC. Know before you roll any dice, which targets of the enemy will cause most damage and plan to kill or avoid them. 

 

EDIT: oh, and make sure you have a fun playing field, we like to use lots of terrain. A game is more fun if you have options to avoid fire lanes, take cover once a while, and actually be able to get to the flanks of the enemy. Even shooty tau is more fun to play with if you have to use tactics and positioning instead of just building a bunker.

Edited January 6, 2015 by MorgothNL

[MorgothNL]

I'm not sure Storm Eagles can transport Jump Pack troops either. Stormravens have a special exception that allows them to do so but I haven't seen it with the 30K flyers anywhere. Perhaps you could swap your Command Squad for another squad of Palatine Blades? The Dreadclaw combo seems to work nicely for them.

 

I'm surprised you agreed to fight 40K opponents with your 30K army, but I suppose as long as the points level is high enough you could make it work. 40K armies have a different pricing structure, internal balance, and design philosophy then 30K.

 

Case in point - Night Lords being useless versus 90% of the 40K armies out there...

 

Think you're right. I do this all the time, I spend hours calculating a fun list, only to find out I made a stupid mistake that makes the list illegal (jump packs in eagle, 10 man command squad, using 5 elite slots, etc).

 

The dreadclaw combo works very well :), though I do think the palatines need a guy like Eidolon or some other HQ with PF/TH to bring them to full effectiveness.

 

I don't mind fighting 40k armies, and it's not like my opponent surprised me with a 40k army. Me and my friends normally know beforehand what army we will face (though there is an honour code to not anti-list). But we usually discuss if the other guy is bringing multiple fliers or a LOW for example, just to make sure that it will be a fun and balanced game. 

 

From 2500pts onwards, 30k works fine against 40k, though the fact that so many things are fearless or ATSKNK, makes it harder for EC.

[Caustic63]

 

Think you're right. I do this all the time, I spend hours calculating a fun list, only to find out I made a stupid mistake that makes the list illegal (jump packs in eagle, 10 man command squad, using 5 elite slots, etc).

 

The dreadclaw combo works very well , though I do think the palatines need a guy like Eidolon or some other HQ with PF/TH to bring them to full effectiveness.

 

I don't mind fighting 40k armies, and it's not like my opponent surprised me with a 40k army. Me and my friends normally know beforehand what army we will face (though there is an honour code to not anti-list). But we usually discuss if the other guy is bringing multiple fliers or a LOW for example, just to make sure that it will be a fun and balanced game. 

 

From 2500pts onwards, 30k works fine against 40k, though the fact that so many things are fearless or ATSKNK, makes it harder for EC.

 

Something I've noticed about 40K is that often the most exploitative lists "max out" on slots a lot earlier then a Legion army does, forcing 40K armies structured that way to branch out into other slots creating a more balanced army. A case in point would be Tau Riptides, which max out at 5 with the appropriate ally selections.

 

In my opinion a good way to make a 40K army with a 30K list would be to emphasize the more shooting centered options that are unique to the crusading legions and avoid units that pay taxes related to their performance in HH games (unless you have a great plan). Liberal access to Sicarians, Scorpius Whirlwinds, fully kitted Heavy and Support squads, and improved bikes/speeders is a boon that can be taken advantage of pretty easily at high points.

 

That being said, certain specific Legions definitely have advantages over others when transitioning into 40K. Those that have large taxes on their best units and mechanics that rely on facing opponents that can be swept like Emperor's Children are at a disadvantage.  However, Phoenix Power Spears and the Ouflanking Maru Skara lose none of their potency in a 40K game, and Eidolon/Fulgrim are still great choices worth considering. Despite their high points cost very few units can take a charge from Phoenix Terminators and survive, and you can attach flexible HQs to make them better.

 

The aforementioned Maru Skara Contemptor list is not to be laughed at either. Very few opponents will be equipped to deal with that much heavy armour coming in from the sides all at once, and in 40K everything scores so you can almost ignore your troops.

[Theredknight]

Ahhhh I was so close to finally breaking my losing streak so now is 8/8.

 

It was v mechanicum, where I got to use a bit of fast attack to flank. Legion traits didn't do anything (except get my sgt killed in forced challenge..) but no surprise there really as we all know my opinion on them lol.

Crusader helped get a bit closer though I suppose.

 

I took

 

Eidolon. J pack

 

Assault squad x12, sgt art arm, shield, spear

 

10 tacticals and cc blades, vex and vox m bombs

 

4 jetbikes, m bombs, volkite.

 

2 attack bikes, autocannons

 

10 palatines, 5 spears rhino

 

6 plasma Tac supports rhino

 

10 h support volkites.

 

Scorpius

 

 

I think I'm getting closer to a bit of synergy at 2k..

 

I was set for a t2 charge all over, he rolled his charge ranges and countered. :cuss happens I swept the table of objectives, and was 13-3 in the lead.

 

It was unfortunate it went to t 7 not much left of his, it all literally fell to one shot, and one failed armour save and he won the game. I actually enjoyed it though.

 

Eidolon was worth it, even though he was mostly I 1 but still smashed about 3 castellex apart all together.

 

I think learning from this, I'd probably swap out the plasma supports for something else, as 3 killed themselves.i always hate using plasma anyway. I could take a contemptor Mortis maybe? Or 2 javelins instead?

 

The volkite supports would have been good against space marines, but an objective In The middle worth 4 vp forced me to run them toward it and capture. Their strength wasn't enough for the mc. I could have gone autocannons or las maybe.

 

Anyway, thought I'd share it with you!

[Hesh Kadesh]

If you need the Plasma, then taking a Seeker Squad with Combi-plasma gives you wide target variety while their 1/game Preferred Enemy lets you reroll those 1's - and BS5 is ace. A unit of 6 comes in at 285 with a Rhino, however, compared to 205.

[Caustic63]

Ahhhh I was so close to finally breaking my losing streak so now is 8/8.

 

It was v mechanicum, where I got to use a bit of fast attack to flank. Legion traits didn't do anything (except get my sgt killed in forced challenge..) but no surprise there really as we all know my opinion on them lol.

Crusader helped get a bit closer though I suppose.

 

I took

 

Eidolon. J pack

 

Assault squad x12, sgt art arm, shield, spear

 

10 tacticals and cc blades, vex and vox m bombs

 

4 jetbikes, m bombs, volkite.

 

2 attack bikes, autocannons

 

10 palatines, 5 spears rhino

 

6 plasma Tac supports rhino

 

10 h support volkites.

 

Scorpius

 

 

I think I'm getting closer to a bit of synergy at 2k..

 

I was set for a t2 charge all over, he rolled his charge ranges and countered. happens I swept the table of objectives, and was 13-3 in the lead.

 

It was unfortunate it went to t 7 not much left of his, it all literally fell to one shot, and one failed armour save and he won the game. I actually enjoyed it though.

 

Eidolon was worth it, even though he was mostly I 1 but still smashed about 3 castellex apart all together.

 

I think learning from this, I'd probably swap out the plasma supports for something else, as 3 killed themselves.i always hate using plasma anyway. I could take a contemptor Mortis maybe? Or 2 javelins instead?

 

The volkite supports would have been good against space marines, but an objective In The middle worth 4 vp forced me to run them toward it and capture. Their strength wasn't enough for the mc. I could have gone autocannons or las maybe.

 

Anyway, thought I'd share it with you!

 

With this list you've made, I'm thinking that you need to find alternate transportation for your Palatine Blades (or Jump Packs) because they are going to have difficulty reaching combat if they are in a non-Assault Transport. A Dreadclaw would work well here since you have a free Fast Attack Slot.  Also if you are thinking about dropping the Plasma Support squad, why not take a squadron of Legion Outriders with TL Plasma and swap the Attack Bikes for a Sicarian? I'm not sure off the top of my head exactly how the points would work out, but it seems like it could work if you lighten up the Palatines.

 

Perhaps you could drop a Palatine, run Eidolon Jump Pack-less in that unit, and swap the Assault Marines for another Tactical Squad instead and maybe some Apothecaries? Not saying this is for sure the best way... just tossing out ideas.

 

 

If you need the Plasma, then taking a Seeker Squad with Combi-plasma gives you wide target variety while their 1/game Preferred Enemy lets you reroll those 1's - and BS5 is ace. A unit of 6 comes in at 285 with a Rhino, however, compared to 205.

 

I don't mean to sound overly critical, but I don't think Seekers are the best option in this particular army or Emperor's Children in general unless you are running a Rite of War that benefits their intended role (Maru Skara and Orbital Assault come to mind). I write this because Seekers have an enormous unit tax (The price of a bog standard Javelin Speeder) and abnormally cheap additional models practically forcing you to max out the squad to get the most out of them. Factor in combi-weapons and the unit becomes very pricey whether small or large.  Other legions like the Raven Guard, Alpha Legion and to a lesser extent the Sons of Horus make better use of Seekers due to beneficial Legion Special rules and/or Banestrike Ammo.

 

If one is looking for reliable Plasma in a Legion army, I'd recommend the following options:

 

- Predator Executioners

- Legion Outriders with TL Plasma

- Heavy Support Squad with Plasma Cannons (if you run Fortifications Ammo Caches and Ammo Reserves are very handy for their ability to make these guys reroll their Get's Hots)

- Tactical Support Squad with Plasma

 

The first two in particular are standouts in terms of reliability.

 

In my opinion, a proper Emperor's Children Army should always seek to include in their Fast Attack at least 2 of the following:

- Outriders for the TL Plasma (Outflanking)

- Javelin Land Speeders with Missile Storm (Outflanking)

- Jetbikes with MMs and Meltabombs (for anti-vehicle duties and objective snatching)

- Primaris Lightning with Kraken Missiles (for Spartan Hunting)

 

And the army should be built around the strength of these units when Outflanking reliably, supported by Palatine Blades with Jump Packs/Assault Transport (and a Primus Medicae to protect your investment) or Phoenix Terminators in a Spartan (with a powerful character or Chaplain). These suggestions are geared towards an aggressive army that crosses the board quickly and hits hard with close range shooting and close combat. By using your speed and deployment advantages, you can quickly gain an edge against armies that want to kill you from far away (Mechanicum being one of them) as demonstrated in my sample game earlier in the thread.

 

With the rest of your points Sicarians, Scorpius Whirlwinds, and large squads of Kakophoni are worth considering as 'additional' elements to support your main strategy. Once again I'm not saying Kakophoni are a good unit, merely that they are an okay unit in a supporting role that your opponent isn't going to worry about until suddenly they work and he loses a good chuck of models (and then he'll start worrying about them).

[jumping goat]

Has anyone here tried a shooty 30k noise marine army?

I'm picturing Marius Vairoseans army in Angel Exterminatus.

Maybe use another Rite of War rather than Maru Skara.

Three full squads of Kakophoni as heavy support to get the most out of Bio-psychic Shock.

Shooty Dreadnoughts for elites to take on enemy armour.

Basic tactical squads for troops.

 

I'm hoping that Forge World releases a book for characters and units in the later stages of the heresy.

I would like to see rules for Marius Vairosean which might enable you to take Kakophoni as troops.

[Hesh Kadesh]

With the onslaught FOC, you can pick up 4 Squads of 10 for 980pts minimum, with only a single HQ+Troops unit tax.

[Theredknight]

Hmm, it's definitely a good idea to try and get some use out of our nearly useless kakophoni, wording is 'units that have wounds caused by these weapons take a leadership test at the end of the shooting phase' take a test.

 

But..

 

First you can't move

Then your hitting if 3s, (hoping to not roll 1s for gets hot) wounding on 2s,

They then they get their save of 2 or 3+. Or cover save.

Then Possibly an apothecary save.

Then they have to fail their leadership test, (if they have vex re rolling)

Then hoping to roll high enough on the d6 for wounds.

They will then get any invulnerable saves. (Terminators 5+)

 

To me personally, there are better things to spend points and £ on, iv tried fluffy armies with ec and just get stamped

[Raktra]

Sadly aside from rule of cool I don't see a use for them. Maybe if you're hyper lucky against AdMech forces, but then if dice are going that well for you, Vegas would be a better choice.

[jumping goat]

It's a bit sad realy, Kakophoni have such great models.

I suppose to proxy them as volkites is the only way its worth using them.

[Theredknight]

It is sad yes..

 

we have some of the best models about in my opinion, palatine blades are the original blade masters, and their models reflect that.

The rules are a bit meh, but could be worse, I think they should get some kind of increase to their invulnerable save in combat like fulgrim does.. Give them a bit more survivability.

 

Phoenix guard would need a buff of sorts, but after istvaan 5, there aren't any left I don't think, so unlikely to see that change.

 

Rylanor and tarvitz are the same but istvaan 3

 

Best I think we can hope for is kakophoni to be improved to something they deserve.. And additional character rules for lucius, eidolon (maybe?) Fabius, Marius or julius kaeseron. possibly even deamon fulgrim (we saw that picture released by fw last year?)

 

It'd be nice to see some new stats, something to represent them after istvaan, like a fnp (or enjoy pain?) when julius gets his face burnt off, all he can say is 'thank you, that was..exquisite!' And in the books they are all like that.. Only problem would be I'd have to pink up all my guys some parts to brighten them all up!!

 

What do you guys think could do with improvement?

[Sevatar]

To represent the corruption? Fearless. Oh, and Crusader. Done.