Deep Striking Dark Eldar Vehicles

[Jolemai]

A Dark Eldar tank elects to deploy via Deep Strike in a prime location near to the enemy lines. Upon rolling for scatter the model ends up within 1" of an enemy model. Does the tank roll on the Deep Strike mishap table or, does it stop 1" away from the enemy model as per the Skimmer rules for when a Skimmer is forced to end its move on top of another model (BRB, page 89)?

 

Full write up: here

[Axagoras]

no because deep strike would override that. Also it hasnt been played that way for my space marine land speeders so why are we trying to change how the game is played because a new codex comes out that everyone thinks is bad and needs "help"....

[Eddie Orlock]

On my initial review of these clauses I suspect the answer will be more complicated than "by RAW it's safe".

 

The skimmer clause about moving to not be on top of enemy models is exactly that, it doesn't state that it moves them more than an inch away. So, even though the skimmer is no longer over the hostile unit, it will almost invariably wind up within an inch and misshaping. In the most desired case it this would make this rules case moot.

 

Interestingly, though, it may work as reviewed with friendly units and impassible terrain, as those don't cause mishap by mere proximity. So it may be possible to corral your deep strike to limit how far you drift from the enemy with your own units and maintain range that way. This would, of course, generally be significantly harder to pull off.

 

All of this hinges on the interpretation that 'Deep Striking' is a form of 'Movement'. I recall that we've argued about when movement is 'Movement' around here in the past.

[Ming]

1. Only drop pods have a special rule allowing them to ignore the effects of deviating while deep striking to the extent described above.

 

2. Other units have special rules that allow them to modify, reduce, or reroll their deeps strike scatter (blood angels and others)through wargear such as homers or rules like descent of angels.

 

3. Apparently there is a DE portal that allows the user to eliminate deep strike scatter. I don't have the DE book from which to read the actual rules. It would be interesting to know how the webway portal actually hits the table - either as wargear carried by a unit already on the table (like a teleport homer - see special rules for those) or something more unique.

 

4. I was listening to the Forge the Narrative podcast where this came up as a discussion; the same guys seem to be the source of the article at BOLs. They seemed all excited about it but nobody was quoting any rules.

 

5. W/O seeing the actual DE codex, I'm skeptical. These guys may be trying to stretch or break the rules in order to claim a tactical way to deploy their raiders/DE skimmers as if each vehicle was its own webway portal, which seems wrong and redundant with what the wargear functions as.

 

6. If they claim it, so can any SM, tau, Eldar, or other skimmer in the game, so the advantage goes away. Example: DE skimmer DS's full of special troops and dudes. Next turn, my HF skimmers arrive right next to them with no relevant scattering and we flame them to cinders. Because they are open topped, the damage is massive.

 

7. Try deep striking a Armor 10 DE skimmer full of pointy hatted pointy eared DE goths within 24-inches of a contemptor mortis on skyfire duty...

 

Hey, I may be totally wrong here, but I use 2-4 skimmers each game, so I'm willing to see how this gets resolved...my early vote is on "nope, can't do it".

[Kristoff]

Deep Strike is Movement, but Scattering is not. Deep Strike Mishap takes place before the finalization of any Movement of the Skimmer. Mishaps are therefore not avoided just because you are a Skimmer.

 

One should note that the same distance to enemy unit restrictions on movement also apply to every unit in the game, yet, they obviously are affected by Mishaps.

 

Now, if the person can manage to legally stop ABOVE the enemy unit, then it would be fine, but I believe that the Deep Strike rules put a kibosh on that.

[Ovidius Incertus]

3. Apparently there is a DE portal that allows the user to eliminate deep strike scatter. I don't have the DE book from which to read the actual rules. It would be interesting to know how the webway portal actually hits the table - either as wargear carried by a unit already on the table (like a teleport homer - see special rules for those) or something more unique.

 

 

 

 

Webway used to be something one placed on the table during shooting phase and was persistent (so anything in reserves could come through it), but no vehicles could come through.

 

New webway is essentially one use, but allows "the model and any unit it has joined or embarked on [to have] the Deep Strike special rule."  The model/unit/vehicle does not scatter when arriving from reserve.  Archons, haemonculi and succubi can take a webway portal.

 

So basically any DE HQ can have it and it allows them to drop in with a Raider and 9 buddies or a Venom and 4 buddies.

 

I'd most fear some nasty stuff from the Haemonculus Covens supplement that allows for a Haemonculus to join a unit of Pain Engines...and deep strike.

 

Anywho, is this deep-striking skimmer question actually new?  DE could always deepstrike their Raiders, Venoms and Ravagers if they bought Retrofire Jets; they just get the DS rule for free now.

[Seahawk]

 

 

 

New webway is essentially one use, but allows "the model and any unit it has joined or embarked on [to have] the Deep Strike special rule."  The model/unit/vehicle does not scatter when arriving from reserve. 

Nope.

 

This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve. 

The model carrying the portal and any unit he has joined will not scatter, but if they are aboard a transport then it will scatter as normal. Webway portal only works on non-embarked units, so don't get caught out by bad players. ;)

 

 

As for the OP:

- "If a skimmer is forced to end its move over models..."

- Deep striking counts as moving.

- Scatter rolls force you to go in certain places

- Therefore, skimmers are "safe" via one reading of RAW.

- However, there are two sets of rules to follow: Mishaps and Skimmers rules, which both detail movement and models. Since there is a conflict, either D6 it, or agree with your opponent on which set to follow.

[Kristoff]

New webway is essentially one use, but allows "the model and any unit it has joined or embarked on [to have] the Deep Strike special rule." The model/unit/vehicle does not scatter when arriving from reserve.

Nope.

This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

The model carrying the portal and any unit he has joined will not scatter, but if they are aboard a transport then it will scatter as normal. Webway portal only works on non-embarked units, so don't get caught out by bad players.

Let's finish the rule, please:

If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule.

So it will count for Transports, too, and it will be One Use MOST of the time (unless mounted on a Transport that can go in to Ongoing Reserves again).

It's a good thing that they can't effectively join the Eldar Swooping Hawks, that would be NASTY if they could both bounce between OR and table without significant penalty! But the DE can't get the SH wings to allow them to jump out.

[Kilofix]

Deep Striking Raiders / Venoms isn't new.

 

Deep Striking Venoms with Fire Dragons, etc. might be new - but it is still more expensive than Deep Striking a quad Melta Scion Command, etc (and, for that matter, more expensive than Tau Deep Striking Suits with double Fusion - which they have been doing already)

 

Deep Striking with no Scatter might also be new - but it is way more expensive than using a Drop Pod.

 

 

But, Deep Striking Skimmers with no Scatter without WWP - is just not right. If it were, watch me load up on Land Speeders with Flamers that I'll drop right next to their Open Topped Raiders.

[Seahawk]

So it will count for Transports, too, and it will be One Use MOST of the time (unless mounted on a Transport that can go in to Ongoing Reserves again).

Nope. That's the first part of the rule. 

 

If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule. This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

This is it in 100% entirety RAW. The transport gains DS. The transport does not gain the ability to land on target; only the bearer and his unit do. The transport is not the IC's unit.

[Ovidius Incertus]

 

If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule.  This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

 

p. 108

 

It confers a no-scatter DS to the unit and his transport.  The no-scatter provision is provided after the rule grants DS to a model that otherwise cannot DS, ergo any DS granted by the Webway does not scatter.

 

What purpose would this pricey upgrade serve otherwise?  Any DE transport can DS for free, so why include the proviso "or embarked upon" in the rule?  Furthermore, the new rule specifically includes units embarked on transports, whereas the old Webway portal specifically excluded vehicles passing through the portal.

 

To get to the original point of the thread, no, I don't see how skimmers would be immune to mishaps if they scatter just by virtue of being a skimmer.

[Seahawk]

You're creating rules that don't exist, and you're ignoring the context of the sentence.

 

It confers a no-scatter DS to the unit and his transport.

No it doesn't, it provides a no-scatter DS to the character and his unit. The transport is not listed anywhere in there, which is a very important distinction. "This model [the bearer of the webway portal], and his unit [the unit he joined] , will not scatter..."

 

 

The no-scatter provision is provided after the rule grants DS to a model that otherwise cannot DS, ergo any DS granted by the Webway does not scatter.

You made this up to support your position. The rule is quite clear that only the bearer and the unit he's joined gains no-scatter DS.

 

 

What purpose would this pricey upgrade serve otherwise?

 

To allow a non-embarked unit to deepstrike without scatter. It also gives the DS ability to Eldar transports, should he be embarked on one. Do you want examples of redundant upgrades? There's quite a laundry list of them; the Grey Knights' Brotherhood Champion getting Digital Weapons being a great example.

[gargamelgrozni]

well the rule does not actually say this "and his unit [the unit he joined]" it just says "This model, and his unit" and before that "the model and any unit it has joined or embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule"

 

So the first part of rule says that unit = joined or embarked

The second part of the rule says unit and from the first part we know that unit = joined or embarked

 

I'm looking in the rulebook but cant find anything, is there any place that defines joined unit as "his" unit?

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

well the rule does not actually say this "and his unit [the unit he joined]" it just says "This model, and his unit" and before that "the model and any unit it has joined or embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule"

 

So the first part of rule says that unit = joined or embarked

The second part of the rule says unit and from the first part we know that unit = joined or embarked

 

I'm looking in the rulebook but cant find anything, is there any place that defines joined unit as "his" unit?

No. Sorry, but no.

 

The first part there specifices the model, his unit, or a vehicle he/they are embarked on. The second part doesn't. Furthermore,  there's no way for an IC to join a vehicle he's transported in in way, thus "joined" doesn't matter in this case.

[Kristoff]

I'm looking in the rulebook but cant find anything, is there any place that defines joined unit as "his" unit?

Independant Character USR. If joined to a unit, it is part of that unit for all intents and purposes except victory point kills.

[gargamelgrozni]

thx for answers...

[brother_contagion]

So if skimmers can DS with DS mitigation based on the apparent nature of the rules, that applies to all skimmers/hovering flyers that can DS? I've never heard of that before.

[Kilofix]

So if skimmers can DS with DS mitigation based on the apparent nature of the rules, that applies to all skimmers/hovering flyers that can DS? I've never heard of that before.

 

That's why I would drop Land Speeders with Flamers right next to the Open Topped barges of any DE that insists on interpreting the Skimmer rules such.

[brother_contagion]

 

 

So if skimmers can DS with DS mitigation based on the apparent nature of the rules, that applies to all skimmers/hovering flyers that can DS? I've never heard of that before.

That's why I would drop Land Speeders with Flamers right next to the Open Topped barges of any DE that insists on interpreting the Skimmer rules such.

Also makes me think that DSing Dreadclaws from the new IA13 would be relatively safer. Although I've never heard this until the new Dark Eldar codex.

[Ming]

I was reading it last night (the issue of skimmers vs DS scatter.). Its interesting - it seems to imply there might be a reason that you can be "forced" to divert onto the top of another model and somehow you would get shunted the shortest distance off to an open spot. The wording is poor and seems to be a case of bad editing. Because it uses the word "forced" one could argue that any scatter by DS would NOT fit the case, because you were not forced to deploy by DS, you chose to. You also chose not to use a beacon. Dice cannot force you to do anything. It does however lay groundwork for a future case where some unit might (through a TBD special rule or ability) be able to shunt your vehicle aside (like a force field). One could also guess that this snippet of bad rule writing was originally intended to deal with people blocking flyers from moving a forced distance from their version of immobilization or stun).