Community project : Let's found a Chapter ! (Phase 3 & 4)

[Tiberius Cato]

Good point, I suppose we were (read: I was) going a bit far down the thematic path...

[Stercus]

I think the tendency to over stretch a metaphor is easily done. That's what attracted me to this project, its because there are many voices we can pick each other up from going OTT. It also means we can absorb some really good ideas that might never have occurred individually. I'm seeing something interesting every time I open this thread.

 

My view on the prisoner taking is that you use your line troops to pin down and suppress the enemy force before using surgical rapid strikes and overwhelming pinpoint assaults to pluck out the enemy commanders for capture. In this instance, sternguard would be deployed as part of the tactical/devastator mix to deal with the main enemy force while the vanguard and deep striking terminators swoop in to snatch the good stuff.

I really feel that the prisoner capture and executions will work better if the Knights Panthera prioritise high-value targets rather than rounding up the enemy en-masse for post-combat slaughter. We're talking less 'blood for the god emperor' and more 'anybody who defies the emperor will be defeated, and then his followers will be forced to watch and remember as he is erased utterly from existence'.

[Black Cohort]

While I agree with not wanting to over emphasize the themes, I still feel that the first company has a preference for using Vanguard or terminators over sternguard. But as I have said previously, the chapter has any kit you expect a codex chapter to have, they just prefer to use some kit more than others.

[Stercus]

I think you've made a good case for it as a fluff idea. In gaming terms it would be like using dreads in a whitescar force. It's not what they prefer, but if its deemed necessary, it happens.

[Black Cohort]

I think you've made a good case for it as a fluff idea. In gaming terms it would be like using dreads in a whitescar force. It's not what they prefer, but if its deemed necessary, it happens.

This is exactly what I have been trying to say.

[Quozzo]

I'm sorting of leaning the other way, they would use the best methods to capture some captives, ragardless of squad. I think a squad of specialized brothers equipped with specialized ammo to capture any threat, heretics, xeno, even chaos marines. It plays with the Aztec theme well.

Edit. Could even think of them as firing nets or the like from bolt rounds. Would definitly add some panic to the enemy if they seen their comrades getting trapped and struggling to escape as a huge warrior picked them up and dragged them off. The same can be said for sweeping advance

[Tiberius Cato]

So we are in agreeance that the chapter uses Sternguard, but to a much lesser degree than termies and Vanguard?

 

I still like the idea that Sternguard use a special type of ammunition for catching enemies. But perhaps the reagents for the nuerotoxin, or the special bolts the launch nets as Quozzo brought up, are so rare that they are reserved for high and top priority targets?

 

I think if we get that figured out, we got the Aztec part of the theme on lockdown. Perhaps we can add more to the Saxon side. All I know we have for that is a preferance for heavy infantry supported by flanking units. Maybe that's all there is to add, I'm not sure

[Black Cohort]

So we are in agreeance that the chapter uses Sternguard, but to a much lesser degree than termies and Vanguard?

 

I still like the idea that Sternguard use a special type of ammunition for catching enemies. But perhaps the reagents for the nuerotoxin, or the special bolts the launch nets as Quozzo brought up, are so rare that they are reserved for high and top priority targets?

 

I think if we get that figured out, we got the Aztec part of the theme on lockdown. Perhaps we can add more to the Saxon side. All I know we have for that is a preferance for heavy infantry supported by flanking units. Maybe that's all there is to add, I'm not sure

I think that is the general consensus.

 

Personally I am not a huge fan of different ammo types but really if all we are saying is that their "hellfire" rounds use powerful tranquilizers instead of acid that really doesn't change anything.

 

I think the Saxon side is more represented in their battle tactics. Their battle line will be a core of tactical and devestator squads with armour, terminator and sternguard support. The flanking elements will be guided in by scouts (perhaps meaning that scouts tend to be either on bikes or in LSS) and consist of bike troops and deep striking forces.

 

Overall I see the chapter as focusing more on infantry rather than armour so dismounted infantry would be the norm with heavier firepower coming from Dreadnoughts and devestators rather than tanks.

 

Once again none of this means that the chapter never uses land raiders or other tanks or that scouts will never use sniper rifles. Just that they prefer to fight a certain way and will do so if/ when possible.

[Quozzo]

So we are in agreeance that the chapter uses Sternguard, but to a much lesser degree than termies and Vanguard?

I still like the idea that Sternguard use a special type of ammunition for catching enemies. But perhaps the reagents for the nuerotoxin, or the special bolts the launch nets as Quozzo brought up, are so rare that they are reserved for high and top priority targets?

That's a fantastic idea. The darts are so rare they are reserved for the veterans They darts and blowguns themselves are considered to be the weapons of the gods.

[Stercus]

One thing I've been reading about with regard to Aztec practices concerns the prisoner taking. As far as I can work out, there is little reference to the Aztecs taking prisoners except when fighting other mesoamericans. Huge battles between the Aztecs and those of neighbouring tribes would often be almost choreographed to facilitate prisoner-taking. Often weapons were blunted and the killing of high ranking enemies was prohibited by the priests. When fighting Europeans, at least in their initial encounters, the Aztecs viewed them as almost alien, and so were happy to butcher those that they could.

Perhaps we could extend this to utilising sternguard more when fighting xenos? The idea being that the death of a worthy foe is a tribute to the emperor, whereas the death of a tyranid or a kroot is merely putting down a dangerous animal.

[Black Cohort]

One thing I've been reading about with regard to Aztec practices concerns the prisoner taking. As far as I can work out, there is little reference to the Aztecs taking prisoners except when fighting other mesoamericans. Huge battles between the Aztecs and those of neighbouring tribes would often be almost choreographed to facilitate prisoner-taking. Often weapons were blunted and the killing of high ranking enemies was prohibited by the priests. When fighting Europeans, at least in their initial encounters, the Aztecs viewed them as almost alien, and so were happy to butcher those that they could.

Perhaps we could extend this to utilising sternguard more when fighting xenos? The idea being that the death of a worthy foe is a tribute to the emperor, whereas the death of a tyranid or a kroot is merely putting down a dangerous animal.

I think it depends on the Xenos in question, Tyranids or Orks kill them all as quickly as possible, Eldar on the other hand may be worthy to be executed. After all how many humans would present a challenge for a space marine to capture?

[Tiberius Cato]

Tyranids would definitely be a species that would be decimated wholesale without any captures, they don't really have battlefield commanders and the like (unless you want to count tyrants and such). Orks I would say maybe Nobz and up.

 

But it may all boil down to how fiercly an enemy fights, if a lowly grot killed three Astartes I think that it would be captured for sacrifice; for it clearly has been blessed by it's false gods. Doing such would be like denouncing false idols and proclaiming the Emperor and his sons as the true gods of the galaxy.

[Stercus]

Absolutely. You kill those that have fought fiercely and you kill those who are the leaders. You do it to thwart the enemie's gods as much as to honour your own. You do it not only to instil pride and fervour in your own men, but to break the spirit of your opponent.

 

Another way to play it would be to make the Knights Panthera specialists in shattering human rebellions or incursions by infiltrating enemies. Given the option between exterminating a hive world under the guns of the imperial guard wrecking all the infrastructure in the process, or sending in Astartes who can break the will of the enemy, capture their commanders and execute them in a manner that inevitably leads to surrender. Sure the population are all dead, but at least the structures are still mostly intact when the Panthera are done.

[Quozzo]

 

So we are in agreeance that the chapter uses Sternguard, but to a much lesser degree than termies and Vanguard?

 

I still like the idea that Sternguard use a special type of ammunition for catching enemies. But perhaps the reagents for the nuerotoxin, or the special bolts the launch nets as Quozzo brought up, are so rare that they are reserved for high and top priority targets?

 

I think if we get that figured out, we got the Aztec part of the theme on lockdown. Perhaps we can add more to the Saxon side. All I know we have for that is a preferance for heavy infantry supported by flanking units. Maybe that's all there is to add, I'm not sure

I think that is the general consensus.

 

Personally I am not a huge fan of different ammo types but really if all we are saying is that their "hellfire" rounds use powerful tranquilizers instead of acid that really doesn't change anything.

 

The point I was trying to emphasize with the Sternguard is that the Aztecs use ranged troops as much as close combatants. In fact the Aztecs relied of ranged firepower before the melee warriors would engage. Instead of another chapter having a preference for close combat, or even ranged combat, the chapter could be divided like the two civilizations it is based on. Some of the warriors prefer close quarters combat while others prefer ranged combat. The ranged warriors could be trying to persuade the melee warriors that each of their respective arts of warfare are the best. This could even lead to a friendly rivalry between both styles of fighting within the chapter, exacerbated by each marines personal preference due to the tribe they were recruited from, some prefer ranged while others prefer melee.

[Stercus]

Ok. We have Aztec style prisoner taking and sacrifice. We have Saxon/Frankish shieldwall tactics with an implacable advance of heavy infantry. As battle tactics go, they mesh really well. I mean really well.

 

The line of Astartes, firing incessantly, advance on the enemy at a steady pace. There is no rushing or charging, just a slow and steady unstoppable progress. Nothing the enemy throws at them slows them down, they just keep coming. I'd add in some sort of psychological nastiness too, possibly broadcasting of drumbeats or warhorns at ear splitting volume, or some means of blocking out the sun as the drop-pods crash in. As the enemy finally break and run, the shieldwall parts and through rush the Etins. Centurion suits armed with siege drills, assault terminators with hammers and shields, vanguard veterans with shock mauls and chainswords. Bedecked in feathers and carved jade, they flood forwards, howling and screaming for the enemy to surrender. Any who try to resist are slaughtered, carved apart or blasted into pulpy remnants. Finally, the targets are surrounded and subdued. Officers, generals, those who fought well; these are corralled and herded roughly towards makeshift altars.

Invoking the soul of the God-emperor and his Primarchs, the prisoners are restrained and the chaplains move in.

Aside from the screaming, the battlefield falls silent. Defeat is total, the moral of the enemy destroyed.

 

I see devastators, tactical squads, dreadnoughts and sternguard making up the wall, even predators and land raiders anchoring the flanks; Assault squads, attack bike teams, landspeeders swooping in to pick of targets of opportunity; the assault centurions, terminators and vanguard sit back as a reserve until the enemy line starts to collapse, and then rip it apart looking for captives.

 

I think we could all argue over the inclusion or otherwise of various elements til the cows come home. We need to not lose sight of the idea of these guys as a codex chapter. Ultimately, they are going to follow Bob's Big Book of Battle, and are unlikely to discard too much if it may come in useful. The rivalry idea between the more static elements and the forward rushing glory hunters is really interesting. Possibly we could have a separation of cultures on the chapter's homeworld (or even separate homeworlds).

 

My personal preference runs as follows: the Franks and Saxons were the cultures in Europe that superseded the Romans. Militarily, they adopted Roman tactics and then altered and improved upon them according to the changing situation that the dark ages brought.

Our chapter could be seen as post-Ultramarines astartes. In their early history they would have been very codex compliant, regarding themselves as the new wave of ultras, but I think that the thing which caused them to change their tactics was exposure to the Aztec-style culture that they began for whatever reason to recruit from. They probably began to use these jungle-dwelling deathworlders as recruits for their savagery and toughness. Over time, they came to respect the blood sacrifice and pantheistic belief system and adapt it to their own emperor cult.

The merging of the two is what gives us the Knights Panthera. A chapter that regards itself as the direct successors to the sons of Guilliman, the pinnacle of tactical and honourable warfare. To their minds, the practice of prisoner taking and mass execution is an entirely natural bedfellow to the dictates of the Codex. They use the executions as both a means of psychological warfare, and as an offering of worship to the Emperor and his noble sons. Correspondingly, their hatred for his fallen offspring is total.

 

Apologies for the long post, but I wanted to put together what has settled in my head so far.

[Tiberius Cato]

Man oh man, that warhorn bit makes me want to model instrument weilding scouts.

 

Love the imagery you conjured up, great stuff!

[Gorkimedes]

I like it, knightly in a way different from the average Ultramarines / Imperial Fist successors, psychological without feeling too much like Night Lords.

[Quozzo]

Ok. We have Aztec style prisoner taking and sacrifice. We have Saxon/Frankish shieldwall tactics with an implacable advance of heavy infantry. As battle tactics go, they mesh really well. I mean really well.

 

The line of Astartes, firing incessantly, advance on the enemy at a steady pace. There is no rushing or charging, just a slow and steady unstoppable progress. Nothing the enemy throws at them slows them down, they just keep coming. I'd add in some sort of psychological nastiness too, possibly broadcasting of drumbeats or warhorns at ear splitting volume, or some means of blocking out the sun as the drop-pods crash in. As the enemy finally break and run, the shieldwall parts and through rush the Etins. Centurion suits armed with siege drills, assault terminators with hammers and shields, vanguard veterans with shock mauls and chainswords. Bedecked in feathers and carved jade, they flood forwards, howling and screaming for the enemy to surrender. Any who try to resist are slaughtered, carved apart or blasted into pulpy remnants. Finally, the targets are surrounded and subdued. Officers, generals, those who fought well; these are corralled and herded roughly towards makeshift altars.

Invoking the soul of the God-emperor and his Primarchs, the prisoners are restrained and the chaplains move in.

Aside from the screaming, the battlefield falls silent. Defeat is total, the moral of the enemy destroyed.

 

I see devastators, tactical squads, dreadnoughts and sternguard making up the wall, even predators and land raiders anchoring the flanks; Assault squads, attack bike teams, landspeeders swooping in to pick of targets of opportunity; the assault centurions, terminators and vanguard sit back as a reserve until the enemy line starts to collapse, and then rip it apart looking for captives.

 

I think we could all argue over the inclusion or otherwise of various elements til the cows come home. We need to not lose sight of the idea of these guys as a codex chapter. Ultimately, they are going to follow Bob's Big Book of Battle, and are unlikely to discard too much if it may come in useful. The rivalry idea between the more static elements and the forward rushing glory hunters is really interesting. Possibly we could have a separation of cultures on the chapter's homeworld (or even separate homeworlds).

 

My personal preference runs as follows: the Franks and Saxons were the cultures in Europe that superseded the Romans. Militarily, they adopted Roman tactics and then altered and improved upon them according to the changing situation that the dark ages brought.

Our chapter could be seen as post-Ultramarines astartes. In their early history they would have been very codex compliant, regarding themselves as the new wave of ultras, but I think that the thing which caused them to change their tactics was exposure to the Aztec-style culture that they began for whatever reason to recruit from. They probably began to use these jungle-dwelling deathworlders as recruits for their savagery and toughness. Over time, they came to respect the blood sacrifice and pantheistic belief system and adapt it to their own emperor cult.

The merging of the two is what gives us the Knights Panthera. A chapter that regards itself as the direct successors to the sons of Guilliman, the pinnacle of tactical and honourable warfare. To their minds, the practice of prisoner taking and mass execution is an entirely natural bedfellow to the dictates of the Codex. They use the executions as both a means of psychological warfare, and as an offering of worship to the Emperor and his noble sons. Correspondingly, their hatred for his fallen offspring is total.

 

Apologies for the long post, but I wanted to put together what has settled in my head so far.

I can imagine the wall of tactical, sternguard and devastators. All laying waste to anything that enters their line of sight. But the enemy is relentless, they are too stupid to realize the merely delay the inevitable. Charging the gun line they slowly advance on the chapter, getting inches closer for each file that is lost to a volly of bolt rounds. They step over the dead ready to charge. Now in rapid fire range they can smell blood but they don't realize it is there own. Vanguard Veterans fly over the gun line and crash into the wave of enemies, halting the charge as soon as it began. Terminators teleport at their rear, cutting down the heavy infantry all the while heading towards the gun line, assault marines drop from the skies and cut off the flanks, cutting down those who dare to flee. Boxed in, all four sides converge into the centre, closing in the gap until the last warrior standing is captured or slain.

[Stercus]

I think we may be singing from the same score here...

[Tiberius Cato]

Despite my enjoying of your stories of the chapter wrecking face, perhaps it is now time for us to focus on the other part of this phase: the beliefs.

 

We've established that they worship the Emperor as a god whom presides over a pantheon composed of his primarchs. We should finalise what we think each primarch stands for and maybe this even develops cults within the chapter? If so, maybe each cult has specific icons and fetishes to distinguish membership. Now this kind of depends on what each primarch is the god of, but let's say Dorn is the god of Penetance and Vengeance. Perhaps this means his worshippers wear flaming skull charms or something like that. Maybe they even alter the armour to show their alliegance. Continuing with Dorn, they paint their right hand black. Just minor things like that, not changing the full on paintscheme

[Stercus]

Ok, we have a pantheon consisting of the emperor and his nine loyal sons. We also have a codex company structure of ten companies. Maybe we can assign a company to each Primarch?

[Quozzo]

Ok, we have a pantheon consisting of the emperor and his nine loyal sons. We also have a codex company structure of ten companies. Maybe we can assign a company to each Primarch?

Sound good. The scouts still in training need to find their calling.

[Gorkimedes]

Heres my ideas for three of them. 

 

Sanguinius, Lord of Ignoble Hells, God of Endpoints and Realizations. The Dead Angel is the punisher of those who die in opposition to the Emperor's will. He is the patron of all who believe they have found their purpose / place in life. The mighty dreadnoughts and the sergeant who forgoes advancement to better serve his peers are examples of those within his influence. Often his followers will carry a blood red sash or feather to showcase their conviction in their current role.

 

 

Ferrus Manus and Vulkan, twin gods of life and cultivation. These sons of the Emperor aid all who seek to improve themselves or their fellows, they are the hammer that breaks and the hands that reforge. Ardent followers or these primarchs are mentors, often found in the 10th company or advisor roles, they acknowledge that personal glory stems from the chapter as a whole. Maybe their followers carry small hammer charms/ symbols and wear badges of crusades they took part in or carry banners of their own or their students accomplishments?

[Tiberius Cato]

I was actually thinking about something like that. Guilliman would be patron of the veteran first, for obvious reasons, and then we'd have to figure out how to divide the rest. I would think the scout company wouldn't have a patron, since they're freshfaced astartes. But here's the problem with this. Upon leaving the reserve company or moving on to the veteran company, a marine just drops his previous patron and moves on to a new one? I see that as highly unlikely for a chapter that is so religious.

 

I think that individual Astartes should receive a patron upon leaving the scout company, perhaps through some ritual of divination performed by the chaplains.

[Black Cohort]

I like the idea of ritual divinations, the question becomes is this a librarian or chaplain thing to do?

 

I also agree that having each company have one Primarch as a patron can make things awkward. Perhaps instead each captain/ company chaplain is the head of one of the cults.