IA13's most impact for CSM

[the jeske]

The sicaria drops jink saves not cover and it still has to hit stuff, so it is meh against flyers and forces an eldar or necron wall player to use existing cover[like everyone else]. Unless someone knows the tables on which he plays every time, it is not as an awesome choice as you may think[specialy considering the cost of the tank, and I mean both the points and the money].

 

 

Jeske, how can you come to any conclusions about what should and shouldn't be taken, what was and wasn't taken by my opponent, and what was still alive on the board turn 3, when I have told you know absolutely nothing of the game?

 

Because runing a titant without invisibility in non apo games is a stupid thing to do. And if I were to consider example of X worked against Y[where Y is a bad list/unit choice/unit combination/player was bad ], the gaming aspect of w40k would be greatly dimnished. I always assume that the player is at the top of his game and has a good list and knows how to use it. Other wise the argument that unit X did good, makes no sense. To go back to your example of flanking a titan and hiting its back, the only way for it to happen in a normal game is for your opponent to have a short term memory loss.

 

 

Now, you tell everyone on the Bolter and Chainsword how the Eldar player was to make his revanant invisible when he has no support units left and failed his psyhic test last turn?

 

 

Simple. When making a doubles list one should be build around taking a titan and the other around taking multiple bunkers and casters to get invisbility on it using multi CAD. If that wouldn't be possible[for example team members aren't considered BB and can't be affected by other team members psychic powers], then taking a titant is a bad option and should not be done.

[Cheex]

I'm particularly excited by the:

• Sicaran (a hard counter to Wave Serpents? I'll take three with a Daemonology Sorcerer, thanks)
• Typhon (I badly want to convert one into an oversized Cannon of Khorne)
• Spartan (Khârn + anything else)
• Hell Blade (much needed AA for cheap)
• Dreadclaw (again, Khârn)
• Fire Raptor (just awesome)
• Rapier battery
• Renegades & Heretics (gives me a reason to dust off my old unpainted IG and make a renegade army)
• Legacies of Ruin (some cool opportunities there!)

Bear in mind that I'm a Khorne player with a massive focus on the narrative, so take from that what you will.

[King Jackal]

I'm particularly excited by the:

• Sicaran (a hard counter to Wave Serpents? I'll take three with a Daemonology Sorcerer, thanks)
• Typhon (I badly want to convert one into an oversized Cannon of Khorne)
• Spartan (Khârn + anything else)
• Hell Blade (much needed AA for cheap)
• Dreadclaw (again, Khârn)
• Fire Raptor (just awesome)
• Rapier battery
• Renegades & Heretics (gives me a reason to dust off my old unpainted IG and make a renegade army)
• Legacies of Ruin (some cool opportunities there!)

Bear in mind that I'm a Khorne player with a massive focus on the narrative, so take from that what you will.

That 12" FNP Legacy for IoW would be great on that Spartan with Khârn and pals

[Uprising]

IA 13 made me put off doing anything 40k chaos related, keep trying to figure out which direction to take it.  

 

Any way, chaos now have a viable air list, traitor horde, and much need upgrades to tanks.  I need to start converting 9 rapier for my list. 

[Frater Cornelius]

The sicaria drops jink saves not cover and it still has to hit stuff, so it is meh against flyers and forces an eldar or necron wall player to use existing cover[like everyone else]. Unless someone knows the tables on which he plays every time, it is not as an awesome choice as you may think[specialy considering the cost of the tank, and I mean both the points and the money].

Jeske, how can you come to any conclusions about what should and shouldn't be taken, what was and wasn't taken by my opponent, and what was still alive on the board turn 3, when I have told you know absolutely nothing of the game?

Because runing a titant without invisibility in non apo games is a stupid thing to do. And if I were to consider example of X worked against Y[where Y is a bad list/unit choice/unit combination/player was bad ], the gaming aspect of w40k would be greatly dimnished. I always assume that the player is at the top of his game and has a good list and knows how to use it. Other wise the argument that unit X did good, makes no sense. To go back to your example of flanking a titan and hiting its back, the only way for it to happen in a normal game is for your opponent to have a short term memory loss.

Now, you tell everyone on the Bolter and Chainsword how the Eldar player was to make his revanant invisible when he has no support units left and failed his psyhic test last turn?

Simple. When making a doubles list one should be build around taking a titan and the other around taking multiple bunkers and casters to get invisbility on it using multi CAD. If that wouldn't be possible[for example team members aren't considered BB and can't be affected by other team members psychic powers], then taking a titant is a bad option and should not be done.

1) No Sherlock, I can read the rules, thanks very much. Sicaran is undercosted for it does.

2) We get that you are smartest around here and always make the right choices. Unfortunately, other players do not have the giant genius brain that you have and either can't or won't play the ideal way, the way you of cause would have done it. Live with it.

3) You negativity is not welcome. Either you get a grip on yourself and post something that does not point out how imperfect the people around you are, or you stay away from the keyboard. You will be more popular that way, trust me. I believe I am not the first one saying it either. No one likes a whiner.

[Uprising]

Can we all step back and relax.  We have a new book from forge world and it awesome.  We have lost and the damned back. 

 

Let stop going for each others throat and remember at the end of the day its only a game. 

 

Edit: I did not double post, the alpha legion stole some post above me. 

[the jeske]

1) No Sherlock, I can read the rules, thanks very much. Sicaran is undercosted for it does.

Well the read part is hard to check and undercosted part [what ever your thinking about the points or money cost] is not true.And your welcome.

2) We get that you are smartest around here and always make the right choices. Unfortunately, other players do not have the giant genius brain that you have and either can't or won't play the ideal way, the way you of cause would have done it. Live with it.

Smartness would be hard to check.

3) You negativity is not welcome. Either you get a grip on yourself and post something that does not point out how imperfect the people around you are, or you stay away from the keyboard. You will be more popular that way, trust me. I believe I am not the first one saying it either. No one likes a whiner.

Please german, you talk about imperfect enviroment to me. You can't even differentiate between negative feed back and whining.

And the idea that I would somehow want to be popular on a western forum is laughable.

Let stop going for each others throat and remember at the end of the day its only a game.

How would you do that using the internet, unless someone is able to hack other peoples PC/Macs here and blow them up.

There are good things in the books[the rapier for example or if someone wants to run BB wyverns], the rest does not bring much to game play to call it awesome. Now if the pods would actualy work, it would be a great book for all people playing where FW is fully accepted.

[Tenebris]

I will keep it clear, one more personal affront I see on my part of the boards and I will tag a warning, two warnings in fact... you have been warned. It is a thing forbidden by the policy of the B&C board, it is offensive and it is not productive for the discussion. 

 

Now before I take my daemonic melta from its stasis field and blast this topic I will give a 24 hours trial to return it on the proper course. Failing that it will be locked. 

 

Chaos Mod Team

 

 

Now the general consensus is that the best options for the CSM army in the new IA book are the awesome Rapiers, the Sicaran, the Dreadclaw and even the numerous tricks one can pull out with a Renegades allied detachment. The main bonus of the book is that first thing first we finally have the access so some real and cheap firepower, a thing we were sorely lacking. Another superb thing is that all those masses of cultists we have acquired in the past two years can be made into some serious infantry units for the traitor guard. 

 

My personal favorite is actually the Ferrum Infernus, I love to field dreadnoughts of all stripes and this is a welcome change. Another favorite is the Dreadclaw which ATM is one of the cheapest way to deliver a melee HQ like Khârn and his Berzerker squad into melee relatively safely and even assault straight out of the transport. This opens a whole new avenue of attack for our assault lists. Not a gamechanger, but a welcome change indeed.

 

But said all and read all in the IA book I concede the point that the Rapier is perhaps the best unit in the book, nice looking too. 

[Frater Cornelius]

I will keep it clear, one more personal affront I see on my part of the boards and I will tag a warning, two warnings in fact... you have been warned. It is a thing forbidden by the policy of the B&C board, it is offensive and it is not productive for the discussion. 

 

Now before I take my daemonic melta from its stasis field and blast this topic I will give a 24 hours trial to return it on the proper course. Failing that it will be locked. 

 

Chaos Mod Team

 

 

Now the general consensus is that the best options for the CSM army in the new IA book are the awesome Rapiers, the Sicaran, the Dreadclaw and even the numerous tricks one can pull out with a Renegades allied detachment. The main bonus of the book is that first thing first we finally have the access so some real and cheap firepower, a thing we were sorely lacking. Another superb thing is that all those masses of cultists we have acquired in the past two years can be made into some serious infantry units for the traitor guard. 

 

My personal favorite is actually the Ferrum Infernus, I love to field dreadnoughts of all stripes and this is a welcome change. Another favorite is the Dreadclaw which ATM is one of the cheapest way to deliver a melee HQ like Khârn and his Berzerker squad into melee relatively safely and even assault straight out of the transport. This opens a whole new avenue of attack for our assault lists. Not a gamechanger, but a welcome change indeed.

 

But said all and read all in the IA book I concede the point that the Rapier is perhaps the best unit in the book, nice looking too. 

 

Alright, alright. Keep your hair on.

 

Anyway. After I had a look I have to say that the major thing that jumped out was Malefic Ammunition. Heavy Bolters are one of the less useful weapons in 40k and pale in comparison to the Reaper Autocannon. But the ability to make HB Rending is a whole new level of awesome. Same goes for the Reaper Autocannons.

This book basically seems like IA2 v2 on steroids. Mainly the same options but way better upgrades for the most part. I see this book having an impact on the tournament scene. It may not be big, but big enough to notice.

 

This actually makes me consider using my SW models and look into CSM (this means a lot considering my love for the SW), if it wasn't for certain.. 'factors' preventing me from doing so.

[Vomikron Noxis]

Malefic ammo is pretty cool, but for the most part I'm just convinced it's worth it. Sure is a lot of points :S

[Emperors Immortals]

The Sicaran was one of the first mentioned useful units, and I have to agree. It looks great for most things (not heavy flyers, AV14 or TEQ) and ive had to face the darn thign a few times now - its pretty scary when used with GrayHunter pods or Sternguard. 

 

So now we have a book made of units weve been fighting against for a long time now - what tactics can you guys see working for us?

 

My fav is feeding a Rhino to the Sicaran to save my squads.

 

And personally I wet my pants when I saw we can get Sonic dreads again! Ive run a double list that did pretty well, but it needs more tanks!!!! And the second thing i realised was Chaos Air is a strong theme now!!! :D

[Frater Cornelius]

Hell Blade with Helstorm AC will keep the skies clear ;)

[RolandTHTG]

I also like that we now have the relic predator available. I'm considering converting my current one, which never sees the table, to one of the relic varieties.
First though, my rapier conversion is on the Dark Mechanicus's modeling table.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I also like that we now have the relic predator available. I'm considering converting my current one, which never sees the table, to one of the relic varieties.

First though, my rapier conversion is on the Dark Mechanicus's modeling table.

I started with the relic predator since the experimental datasheet came out, and I cannot recommend one enough.

 

Please share your rapier conversion, as I've been kicking around ideas how to do a battery and would love to see what my fellow CSM players come up with.

[disease]

Right, so i have played 5 tournament games now with IA13 and think I am in a good position to report back my findings:

 

Scenario:  2000pt doubles (1000pt per person) all armies treated as allies as convenience. May only pick from one codex (so the only ally you can have is your partner) but may be battle-forged or unbound. Associated forge world and Lords of war allowed without restriction.  Dataslates / formations only if they are from the same parent codex as the main force. All games played using maelstrom objectives.

 

Now before anyone feels the need to rubbish this list, I came in since someone with a white scar biker army had to pull out. As such, our joint list isn't as optimal as it perhaps could be. *Also, It should be remembered that were both testing new units, and had to play with the units we actually own, not the ones we would like.*

 

Me: 

Sorceror, burning brand, melta bombs

2x cultist unit

plague marines (5) + flamer

2x Chaos Giant Spawn

2x Hellblade fighter with autocannon upgrade

2x Rapier team with conversion beamer

2x Obliterator

 

My ally: (unbound) 

Iron Hands chapter master, thunder hammer , shield eternal etc

Red Scorpions Severin Loth

Ultramarines Tigerius

Red Hunters Centurion squad with missiles, gravs and amp.

 

Game1:  Vs Warhound (D weaps), Culexis Assassin, Void sheild Generator, Revanant Titan (D weaps and chest missiles), Farseer

WON

Only won due to both hellblades being able to hit the rear armour of the Revanant using the translation move and not being able to be hit back. Rapiers caused a few glances. Oblit took down voidshield. Everything else dies spectacularly to the D weapons. Turns out our opponents list was illegal due to assassin.

 

Game2: Vs Death Company + Star Phantoms Devastator Spam

LOST

No gate of Infinity for the Centurions. Spawn died before reaching combat but great distractions. Rapiers killed all the Death Company. Only played two turns (our opponents were so slow!) Dice down was called in the assault phase of their turn 3, meaning we didn't actually get our turn 3 at all.  We looked at the objective cards we would have drawn and we would have won had we got our turn. 

 

Game3: Vs Ravenwing Knights, Darkshroud + Sons of Medusa Land Raider + TH Terminators, Razorback spam.

LOST

Lots of mistakes made by us. Hellblades did nothing much, Spawn died before combat but good distractions, Conversion Rapiers killed approx 400pts but were unable to really use any range.

 

Game 4 Vs Imperial Guard Pask in punisher, leman russ eradicators, guards + Space Wolves, dreadnoughts

WON

This was a complete blood bath, we pretty much annhilated everything turn 1. Of note, one spawn killed a unit of grey hunters, the other drew lots of firepower and ate loads of guards. Rapiers killed all the 3 russes a venerable dread and a unit of grey hunters!!  Hellblades came on but were barely needed.

 

Game 5 Vs Chaos demon prince, maulerfiend rush + Ultramarines Marneus Calgar list

WON

Another quick win for us. Of note, one spawn huge fire magnet, other killed 10man tooled up CSM squad. Rapiers killed everything the touched but then ran turn 2 on a failed leadership test (cannot rally so count as destroyed). Hellblades unable to ground nurgle demon prince, plinked away at other units.

 

In Summary:

 

Giant Spawn - great distraction units, and amazing when in combat. Ultimately too slow to really be any use (not beast). They need to be deep striked or outflanked etc. Keen to hear ideas on how to use them more effectively.

 

Hellblades - great at popping transports, translation move allows you to get into arcs of fire that normal fliers are unable to, and stops you moving off the board or having to fly over things you don't want to (move yourself back ~D6+2 and then forward 18" etc) rending is a nice touch but didnt seem to make much difference. twin linked is a god send. Very fragile though, 3 could be nasty but unfortunately fast attack is a great chaos slot. I really like them, could work well as a 1-2 punch with a heldrake, would like to test this.

 

Rapiers with conversion beamers - AMAZING.  Really impressed with the sheer destructive force of these. the 24-48 range sweet spot is where all gunlines will be and where the majority of armies will be turn 1 and 2.  Need to find a way to make them cheaply via converting as i NEED at least 6!    Leadership is an issue though, making them buffed with a character or psychic power is going to be mandatory. Icing on the cake is the T7 and 2(4) wounds per team. For next time - they are not static prices and the team is very bulky. I am going to put one in a rhino and shoot out the hatch. 

 

Hope that helps anyone deciding what to buy. Will be testing blight drones next I think.

 

regards

 

EDIT: for anyone wondering, rankings:

 

1st   2x Transcendant C'tan, wraiths

2nd  Battleforged Iron Hands and salamanders. no lords of war (really impressed!)

3rd  2x Stompa, loads of kamikaze dakkajets, voidshield

4th  Riptide spam + Y'varna and R'varna and Eldar I think.

[McGibs]

Er, rapiers are artillery. Transports can only carry infantry. So, no shooting out of a rhino with them (rhinos in particular also can't carry bulky of any kind).

They could theoretically carry the crew, but then the guns would be abandoned and destroyed.

[disease]

Er, rapiers are artillery. Transports can only carry infantry. So, no shooting out of a rhino with them (rhinos in particular also can't carry bulky of any kind).

They could theoretically carry the crew, but then the guns would be abandoned and destroyed.

Good point with the rhino not being able to take them. But what about landraiders or Dreadclaws? The rapiers might be artillery, but they are not static artillery. Since it specific States they are very bulk, and that rey can move, then surely they must be able to occupy vehicles?

[Cheex]

 

Er, rapiers are artillery. Transports can only carry infantry. So, no shooting out of a rhino with them (rhinos in particular also can't carry bulky of any kind).

They could theoretically carry the crew, but then the guns would be abandoned and destroyed.

Good point with the rhino not being able to take them. But what about landraiders or Dreadclaws? The rapiers might be artillery, but they are not static artillery. Since it specific States they are very bulk, and that rey can move, then surely they must be able to occupy vehicles?

It's a general rule for transports that they can only carry Infantry. You need a specific rule for something to be able to carry Artillery (like Loyalist drop pods and Thunderfire Cannons). I imagine the Very Bulky rule is just there for consistency, and just in case a transport does come along that can carry it.

[Sohail187]

More rapiers more chaos flyers & a superheavy who knows might see a competetive Chaos space marine list!

[Frater Cornelius]

I am particularly fond of the Hades AC Raper. It fills the requirement for high S shooty spam for a very reasonable price.

Same goes for the Hell Blade.

[Emperors Immortals]

 

Er, rapiers are artillery. Transports can only carry infantry. So, no shooting out of a rhino with them (rhinos in particular also can't carry bulky of any kind).

They could theoretically carry the crew, but then the guns would be abandoned and destroyed.

Good point with the rhino not being able to take them. But what about landraiders or Dreadclaws? The rapiers might be artillery, but they are not static artillery. Since it specific States they are very bulk, and that rey can move, then surely they must be able to occupy vehicles?

They can mount a khybadris, if you really want. They are very bulk so they can move but not sweep.

[Frater Cornelius]

Being bulky has nothing to do with being able to sweep AFAIK.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Rapiers with conversion beamers - AMAZING. Really impressed with the sheer destructive force of these. the 24-48 range sweet spot is where all gunlines will be and where the majority of armies will be turn 1 and 2. Need to find a way to make them cheaply via converting as i NEED at least 6! Leadership is an issue though, making them buffed with a character or psychic power is going to be mandatory. Icing on the cake is the T7 and 2(4) wounds per team. For next time - they are not static prices and the team is very bulky. I am going to put one in a rhino and shoot out the hatch.

 

Hope that helps anyone deciding what to buy.

 

 

Thanks disease for the review on the units.  Since armour 13 been release (still got to buy my copy) & people have talk about Rapiers, this is one unit I would like to add to my IW army.  It good seen diffrent way memeber are useing these in there armies.  Just for me I've never really use much FW rule only models.  But Armour 13 going to give me that push to try them in games in the near future.

 

I also add this topic to the pinned tactical.

[Slave to Darkness]

Hell Blade with Helstorm AC will keep the skies clear

Sorry, cant resist

[disease]

Something else I have been considering, a typhon heavy siege tank with the relic that allows you to outflank.

 

For anyone wondering, the typhon can fire it's dread hammer cannon while moving a max of 24" and it ignores cover whilst being a massive blast of vindicator hate. But the real nice thing is the typhon has +1 to thunder blitz results so can remove units from play on a 5/6. Av 14 all round too, and a cheap LOW