The Battle for Tesstra (Alpha Legion)

[Legatus]

As requested, this is a continuation of an off topic debate started in this thread, mainly between Phoebus and myself.

 

The initial claim was that during the battle for the world Tesstra (described in the Index Astartes Alpha Legion and in 'The Horus Heresy: Extermination' on page 103) the Alpha Legion demonstrated how with their methods they were able to conquer the world either faster or if not then at least with less cost in life and/or damage to the world's infrastructure and population than conventional methods such as employed specifically by the Ultramarines would have permitted.

 

I objected that neither of the two articles that describe the Battle says any such thing, and that instead the Alpha Legion intentionally let the opposition collect their forces and fortify the capital city just so the Alpha Legion could then show off how they were able to defeat such a well prepared foe, but that the cirticism that the world could have been conquered faster and "easier" if the capital had been seized and the command structure taken out before the defense forces could have been assembled was well founded.

 

After the battle, Alpharius is criticised for his conduct by many quarters, and Guilliman in particular called it a waste of time and resources. It was Phoebus' claim that this criticism was either ignorant or disingenuous, since the Alpha Legion was either faster and/or was using fewer resources and inflicted less collateral damage than other methods would have. It was my reply that the criticism was spot on, that the Alpha Legion did indeed waste time and resources, and that it never was their intention to take the world quick and effectively, they just wanted to demonstrate how they would pick apart, blind, trip up, and run circles around a sizable opposition.

 

I am sure Phoebus will be around shortly to state his own position better. But perhaps others might want to contribute their interpretation of the accounts.

 

 

There was also the somewhat related issue of whether the description in the Index Astartes article should be considered at all, for being an older source from 3rd Edition. To me, everything from 2nd Edition that has not been contradicted in a more recent source ist still 'lore', and there are not that many differences between the two accounts of the battle in particular. (The broader description of the Alpha Legion and Alpharius has changed a bit since then, though.) About the most crucial "change" to the Battle for Tesstra in 'Extermination' is that the battle is now said to have been part of a larger joint campaign between the Alpha Legion and the Ultramarines, involving many different worlds, whereas in the Index Astartes article it was more presented as an isolated campaign of the Alpha Legion.

[DuskRaider]

I think the thing to pull away from this is, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

[Wade Garrett]

In my opinion, Index Astartes: Alpha Legion does make it seem as if Alpharius responded to criticism that he was taking too long to prepare intricate schemes to defeat the enemy instead of just smashing them conventionally by...taking an exceptionally long time to prepare a ludicrously intricate scheme to defeat the enemy.

 

And then he was aghast when this failed to silence his critics. :p

[Chronotonic]

it is hard to prove your way is right when you do it your way to prove you are right

 

....yeah

 

but I see his point of view of "well I let them do more then they were going to be able to do so my guys can do it for less loss on top of it..."

[DuskRaider]

I feel it was also Alpharius saying, "Look, I can do it your way. So can 16 other Legions. But you can't do it my way."

 

And he'd be right.

[Wade Garrett]

I'm sure if Guilliman really put his mind to it he could take five times as long to capture a world while wrecking all of its infrastructure in the process.

 

It's a bit like the problem of the World Eaters. Angron's tactics would conquer a world much faster than any of his brothers....at the cost of mind boggling casualties.

 

The Alpha Legion will bring a world down with fewer casualties, but they'll take forever and a day to do it. And frankly, the World Eaters would be preferable allies to the Alphas. At least you always know where Angron's lot are and what they're up to. Alpharius, on the other hand...

[Leif Bearclaw]

In my opinion, Index Astartes: Alpha Legion does make it seem as if Alpharius responded to criticism that he was taking too long to prepare intricate schemes to defeat the enemy instead of just smashing them conventionally by...taking an exceptionally long time to prepare a ludicrously intricate scheme to defeat the enemy.

And then he was aghast when this failed to silence his critics.

If memory serves the initial criticism in IA wasn't that Alpharius was taking too long to prepare schemes. Rather Gulliman had been talking smack that the relative youth of the XX Legion meant they would never equal the victory roll of the older Legions, like Gulliman's (with the implication that the XX are 'worse' because of this). Alpharius reacts to this by attempting to win 'better' victories, hence the waiting to let the enemy reinforce, proving his Legion can engage enemy forces at their peak strength, and still crush them. Of course this still wasn't good enough for Gulliman, who calls the whole thing a waste of bolt shells (not entirely unreasonably). Thus catching Alpharius in a Catch 22, where he feels he can't win whatever he does, solidifying his beef with Gulliman and the XIII.

[Legatus]

After going through more of the material in 'Extermination', this section explains the mind set of the Alpha Legion fairly well (p. 85):

 

"Secret reports prepared for both the Warmaster and the Imperial Court on Terra during this period show a growing unease about the Alpha Legion, some implying that it was increasingly beyond the Imperium's ability to measure or control. Furthermore, that perhaps some obsession or madness was taking hold of the Legion's psyche in the way it operated and made war. It has been suggested that the Alpha Legion had begun to seek out battles to fight for the Challenge they offered, rather than to suit the needs of the Great Crusade, orchestrating ever more apocalyptic displays of their arcane and malevolent methods of war, even when mere conventional assault would have proven more efficient and expedient.

 

In time the accusation had started to become such common currency among the Terran Court and many Imperial commanders that the Alpha Legion had now become seemingly addicted to bringing low civilisations by anarchy, fire and blood that might have been brought into Compliance readily through negotiation or a limited display of force, rather than be turned into strife-torn ruins as a test of the Alpha Legion's skill. Worse, it was alleged that this need to orchestrate the elaborate destruction of their foes was no mere affection but a pathological flaw, and one that was only worsening as the Great Crusade progressed. Such accusations the Warmaster pointedly dismissed."

 

They may have had some secret reason for their strange behaviour, fooling all of those Imperial officials, but it does seem that the Alpha Legion's crusade effort was not the most efficient.

 

 

The Alpha Legion will bring a world down with fewer casualties, but they'll take forever and a day to do it. And frankly, the World Eaters would be preferable allies to the Alphas. At least you always know where Angron's lot are and what they're up to. Alpharius, on the other hand...

 

 

I am not aware of any description of the Alpha Legion taking particularly few casualties during their operations. In the Index Astartes it is suggested that "While these methods took longer to execute than a simple frontal assault, they were far less costly in troops, which enabled Alpharius to spread his forces widely." I read that as it requiring fewer manpower to carry out those type of operations, not that fewer casualties were suffered.

 

On the other hand, the Ultramarines sources, specifically the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines on page 12 and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines on page 13, state that the Ultramarines Legion suffered the fewest casualties out of all the Legions during the Great Crusade.

 

'Extermination' also has this paragraph on page 91, though it refers to the Horus Heresy, not the Great Crusade:

 

"As the war of the Horus Heresy raged on, the Legion demonstrated an enviable ability to replace its battlefield losses. While the war continued and many Legions saw their strength shorn away, the Alpha Legion appears to grow stronger throughout the conflict, despite several seemingly serious defeats. Much like the hydra of myth, where one head was cut from the Legion's body, two more appeared to grow in its place."

 

That paragraph could have been an attempt to bring up the "hydra" theme once more. Or perhaps it is setting up some recruitment practices that will later allow the Alpha Legion to persist throughout the millennia even when operating outside of the Eye of Terror. Or it is another example of their deception, either making it appear that they have suffered defeats when they really haven't, or making it appear that there are strong Alpha Legion forces operating everywhere, even though they are actually hurt badly.

[DuskRaider]

I'd take their recruitment as more a sign that they were working outside of the Imperium to the point that their allies aren't even aware of what they're doing. It seems as though the Alpha Legion became completely autonomous from the Imperium at large. What this would have led to had the Heresy not actually occurred, no one knows.

[mc warhammer]

cool. so which parts of 'legion' support the "making things harder cos of ego" approach? it's been a long time...

[Legatus]

Probably none, but I haven't read it, so perhaps someone ho has (and perhaps recently) can tell us more about it. But then it was written by Dan Abnett, so adherance to pre-existing lore and characterisations are not required.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Probably none, but I haven't read it, so perhaps someone ho has (and perhaps recently) can tell us more about it. But then it was written by Dan Abnett, so adherance to pre-existing lore and characterisations are not required.

 

Still sore about Calth's rendition in Know No Fear, are we?

 

 

cool. so which parts of 'legion' support the "making things harder cos of ego" approach? it's been a long time...

 

 

None of them.  I just re-read Legion about a month ago, and about the only thing in the novel that smacks of ego is the bit where Alpharius refuses to meet the Cabal on even ground and instead orchestrates a clever trap so that he has the advantage when the meeting goes down.  But even that feeds less into "ego-driven" as it does the old maxim about never walking into a place unless you know how to get out of it.  In fact, the only ego-driven bit (I feel) anywhere in the book is when Alpharius is discussing his feud with his brothers and states something along the lines of "Guilliman despises me and I ignore him."  I understand sibling rivalry and the Alpha Legion's "go our own way" attitude, but completely ignoring the most militarily successful Primarch -- especially when you (alone at the time, as it were) see him as a potential enemy -- seems like a bad idea.

[Legatus]

Still sore about Calth's rendition in Know No Fear, are we?

 

 

After his reinterpretation of the Alpha Legion and the Space Wolves I kinda knew what we were going to get. And now Ultramar is 500 worlds. And a Chapter are 10,000 men. And the Word Bearers won at Calth. And the Mechanicus saved the Ultramarines.

[Hyaenidae]

The only story I've read that showed the ego and complete arrogance of the Alpha Legion was The Harrowing by Rob Sanders (Sedition's Gate). Mr. Sanders nailed it perfectly.

[Slips]

Extermination also alludes to it a bit by stating that they make convoluted and complex plans "just 'cuz".

[Conn Eremon]

Oh, I would definitely say the Alpha Legion in Abnett's book showed quite a bit of ego, pretty much their entire involvement in the original war of compliance can be summed up as "We know how to fight this war, you don't; we will win this war, you won't." To the point that competence and usefulness in an another Imperial meant nothing to them than "make him one of us, so that his potential can be realized."

 

That said, it wasn't anything I wouldn't expect to see from another Legion. Ego was kinda their thing.

[Marshal Rohr]

It's only Black Library that writes the convoluted plots about infiltrating Alpha Legionaries. FW sticks to the basic approach they've had for years. Painting you armor to be another color isn't exactly a science only the alpha legion understands. The part where they get fake memories from dead legionaries and give themselves away because none of the other legions taught people you bleed a lot if your femoral is slashed is what makes them stupid.

 

It's one thing to hate BL. Don't drag FW into it. They are miles ahead of the game on this stuff.

[Phoebus]

Legatus, sorry about the delay, man. I'm on a vacation with the wife and kids. I post as I get time! More to follow!

Still sore about Calth's rendition in Know No Fear, are we?

After his reinterpretation of the Alpha Legion and the Space Wolves I kinda knew what we were going to get. And now Ultramar is 500 worlds. And a Chapter are 10,000 men. And the Word Bearers won at Calth. And the Mechanicus saved the Ultramarines.

Why are those two Ultramarines concepts (Ultramar and Chapter sizes) so irreconcilable to you? The old fluff had 10,000-man legions. It stated that only a couple dozen Chapters were created out of the Ultramarines. For better or for worse, the people calling the shots - not just the Black Library Horus Heresy team, but the GW imprint as a whole - decided the notion of 10,000-man legions was not suitable. They thus increased the size of the legions, first to "tens of thousands" (as seen in Fulgrim) and later to well over 100,000 each (with a few exceptions).

Given this, why can't you see that Abnett's "inconsistencies" actually serve as a way to reconcile the old with the new? Follow my (attempt at) logic for a second:

1. The new fluff gave the Ultramarines legion to 250,000+ Space Marines.
2. Logic follows that they had to have had an empire larger than what was show before - ergo, the Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar.
3. The Ultramarines used Chapter formations with 10,000 Space Marines - they had 23 such Chapters at the end of the Horus Heresy.
4. After the Second Founding, the Ultramarines re-divided into Codex Chapters with 1,000 Space Marines each.
5. The Apocrypha of Skaros states the Ultramarines had 23 Successors, but fails to name them all.
6. This makes sense, since we know that knowledge and records degraded since the Horus Heresy and the Scouring.
7. The "new implied truth" can thus be that the Apocrypha of Skaros mistakenly cited the number of "old-style" Chapters that survived to the Second Founding.

[Legatus]

Why are those two Ultramarines concepts (Ultramar and Chapter sizes) so irreconcilable to you?

 

 

For one, other sources explain that after the Scouring, the Legions were divided into Chapters, and that that had been a known formation from the times of the Great Crusade. That bit of lore no longer makes sense if a Chapter was 10,000 Marines, or at least we have to wonder why Guilliman chose to use the formation of another Legion as the example, and not one the Ultramarines themselves were using. If the Ultramarines used 10,000 strong Chapters consiting of 1,000 strong companies, then why is the current Space Marine force in the 41st Millennium not a "Company"?

 

Plus, if a Legion was 100,000 Marines, then would it not have been a sufficient reduction in power to reduce the formations to 10,000?

 

 

 

1. The new fluff gave the Ultramarines legion to 250,000+ Space Marines.
2. Logic follows that they had to have had an empire larger than what was show before - ergo, the Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar.

 

 

 

I contest conclusion No. 2 on the grounds that if the other Legions like the Space Wolves were still able to sustain a 100,000 strong Legion with a single recruitment world, then a Legion of 250,000 could easily be sustained by nine recruitment worlds. 

 

 

 

That the Apocrypha of Skaros somehow lists the number of Chapters the Legion had shortly before the split would be a workaround, though the sources clearly describe independent formations with their own names and heraldry when they talk about the 23 newly created Chapters. It would be a shoddy workaround for an issue that would not exist if the Legions were 10,000 strong. (Which the current Codex Space Marines still says, btw.)

[Marshal Rohr]

Most legions recruited from close to a hundred worlds except the space wolves and salamanders that had trouble maintaining significantly less that 100,000 legionaries.

[Legatus]

If a primitive backwater world can sustain "almost 100,000" Marines. then nine prosperous advanced worlds should be able to sustain 250,000. The Space Wolves and Salamanders would only have to be able to sustain about 30,000 Marines in order for the nine worlds of Ultramar to be able to sustain the Ultramarines. And that is not taking into account the differences in population and the state of the civilisation of those worlds.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Most legions recruited from close to a hundred worlds except the space wolves and salamanders that had trouble maintaining significantly less that 100,000 legionaries.

Source for that number? As far as I can recall, the Wolves, Salamanders, Iron Hands, Death Guard, Raven Guard, Night Lords and Sons of Horus all primarily recruited from a single world once their Primarchs had been recovered.

[Marshal Rohr]

The little blurb about legion fiefdoms and the text from book 1 about the legions.

[Leif Bearclaw]

And yet the individual Legion fluff pieces form the FW books tend to only mention a handful of recruitment grounds at most, with the vast majority of pre-Primarch Legionaries being Terran, which are then replaced with recruits from the Primarch's home world one he's found. Granted, there's a few exceptions, like the Fists recruiting form the Inwit stellar empire, and the IWs and WEs who took recruits wherever they could get them. But the majority of Legions we have ample background on with regards to their recruitment used the Primarch's home world to supply the majority of their manpower, not just the Wolves and Salamanders.

 

Also, why do you say the Wolves struggled to maintain less than 100,000 Marines? While we haven't got the FW numbers yet, we know that they significantly outnumber the XV at Prospero, and the majority of the XV was present. Given that the RG are the smallest at 83k or so, it seems reasonable to assume that somewhere in the region of  80-85k Sons were at Prospero. So a 50% numerical advantage for the Wolves (minimum imo to be able to say 'significantly outnumbered' with a straight face), that makes the VI at least 120-130k, solidly in the middle tier of pre-Heresy Legion numbers.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't know what to tell you man. Obviously you prefer for the wolves to be big. Wait for the Prospero book, because until then all we have to go on is blurbs and bits from BL.