The Battle for Tesstra (Alpha Legion)

[Conn Eremon]

Well, originally the Wolves were supposed to be one of the smallest Legions. I would have assumed maybe 60k would have been appropriate with the new Legion numbers.

 

But Leif is right, in that the newer lore contradicts that. Sources indicate that the Thousand Sons were almost completely present at Prospero, and that the Space Wolves outnumbered them noticeably. That kind of stage has been set by old and new lore.

 

But now we have the Raven Guard, just prior to Isstvan, being the smallest Legion at 83k numbers. This is according to Extinction. The Raven Guard suffered losses at a big battle, dropping them down into 83k and granting them the title of smallest Legion, and immediately after Isstvan happens.

 

Unless they contradict themselves, or provide some extra reasoning behind it, that means the Thousand Sons were greater than 83k. How much higher, we don't know yet.

 

Which kind of leads one to assume that the Space Wolves will also get a big boost in numbers.

 

That said, this might not be the case. If I recall correctly, I believe Kol once quoted Laurie Goulding, who had posted this on The First Expedition forums, as having said something along the lines of the Thousand Sons not being dominantly on Prospero. Again, if I recall correctly, I believe he set the numbers at Prospero as being a hard 10k.

 

If true, and if they do make the Thousand Sons 84k or bigger, then that has its own problems, as that means the vast majority of the Legion was absent. To me, that would have been equivalent to the Salamanders or the Raven Guard suffering as usual in the Massacre, only to discover only one-tenth of these Legions were even present.

 

Who knows though. He apparently said it (unless I am misremembering it), but I haven't noticed it come through in anything released since.

[Wade Garrett]

The big thing that jumped out at me in Legion was how frustrating it would be to fight alongside XX "allies".

 

The Alphas sneak significant Astartes assets in theatre without notifying the Imperial Army, sacrifice whole regiments so they can pull off their operations, and when they finally do make contact with the Imperial commanders it's a complete farce where not a single legionary breathes a word of truth to anybody.

 

I don't blame Guilliman for snapping at his baby brother. Ask simple questions like "What forces have you committed to this campaign?" Or "Where will you be attacking?" and the Alphas give you "I can't say."

 

At least with Angron and Curze you can count on them to run right into the thickest enemy defenses or fall on the largest concentration of unprotected civilians. You can make plans around that.

 

The Alphas? Roll a d100, consult the random encounter chart. It's as valid a method of figuring out what they're up to this time as any other.

[depthcharge12]

The big thing that jumped out at me in Legion was how frustrating it would be to fight alongside XX "allies".

The Alphas sneak significant Astartes assets in theatre without notifying the Imperial Army, sacrifice whole regiments so they can pull off their operations, and when they finally do make contact with the Imperial commanders its a complete farce where not a single legionary breathes a word of truth to anybody.

I don't blame Guilliman for snapping at his baby brother. Ask simple questions like "What forces have you committed to this campaign?" Or "Where will you be attacking?" and the Alphas give you "I can't say." Or they flat out lie.

At least with Angron and Curze you can count on them to run right into the thickest enemy defenses or fall on the largest concentration of unprotected civilians. You can make plans around that.

The Alphas? Roll a d100, consult the random encounter chart. It's as valid a method of figuring out what they're up to this time as any other.

 

If you have an Alpha Legion member on the inside of the Alpha Legion, you get to reroll one or more dice on the table.

 

Unless of course your Alpha Legionnaire is actually an Iron Hand, and your Iron hands are Alpha Legion, and then you find out you're Alpharius....

 

...then just worship Tzeentch as he's pretty transparent in his plans in comparison.

[Phoebus]

The initial claim was that during the battle for the world Tesstra (described in the Index Astartes Alpha Legion and in 'The Horus Heresy: Extermination' on page 103) the Alpha Legion demonstrated how with their methods they were able to conquer the world either faster ...

An assertion you very ably shot down!  

... then at least with less cost in life and/or damage to the world's infrastructure and population than conventional methods such as employed specifically by the Ultramarines would have permitted.

... not so much.

 

My involvement in this debate began as a rebuttal to Veteran Sergeant, who opined that the Alpha Legion had "forgotten" how to fight as Space Marines.  He  questioned how, given the amount of trouble Lorgar got into for taking his sweet time proselytizing and building temples, Alpha Legion was not getting in trouble for wasting time and resources.

 

My initial rebuttal was that his comparison was neither here nor there; that the War Council (or, later, the Council of Terra) would not have cared about how a legion went about bringing worlds to Compliance: that their standard was, basically, "Not like the Night Lords or the World Eaters".  I then offered that Guilliman's parting shots re: Alpharius wasting too much time and resources could be dismissed as inaccurate.

 

Now, where time is concerned, I again have to tip my hat to you, Legatus.  I clearly missed some references that, in hindsight, were embarrassingly obvious.  I still, however, contend that Alpharius was not wasting resources.

 

Furthermore, as our debate went on, we found ourselves disagreeing about the mentality of the Primarch(s) of the Alpha Legion.  Specifically, we disagreed as to whether or not vanity/pride/arrogance informed his overall strategy, tactics, and responses to Roboute Guilliman.

My argument primarily drew on information presented in Forge World's Extermination. I also cited the Index Astartes article on the Alpha Legion.

 

I hope this serves as a good summary of where I stand on this matter.

 

I objected that neither of the two articles that describe the Battle says any such thing, and that instead the Alpha Legion intentionally let the opposition collect their forces and fortify the capital city just so the Alpha Legion could then show off how they were able to defeat such a well prepared foe, but that the cirticism that the world could have been conquered faster and "easier" if the capital had been seized and the command structure taken out before the defense forces could have been assembled was well founded.

My argument was that Alpharius' strategy did not necessarily equate to a waste of resources.  I also disagreed with the premise that he was trying to "show off".

 

Where "showing off" is concerned, Alpharius' parting statement to Guilliman is contradicted by his actual conduct of the battle.  Alpharius did allow the Conservation forces to gather in strength in the capital of Tesstra, Prime.  On face value, it would appear that Alpharius was trying to prove a point by defeating a prepared, fortified force through the tactics that he felt made his legion special.  In actuality, though, what Alpharius did allowed him to conquer Tesstra in one decisive battle - as opposed to a number of piecemeal battles.  Furthermore, he didn't simply sit around and allow the Conservation forces to gather in strength.

 

 

"While within the city [the Tesstrans]had expended such effort to cordon against an attack, the enemy was already within their walls.  Key nexus points of the city's transit network and power infrastructure were destroyed in a wave of bombing and sabotage that paralyzed the vast metropolis ...  The panicking Tesstran commanders found their army equally paralyzed, their garrisons trapped in their fortified defence lines, unable to advance and retreat.  ... supply lines collapsed or were cut, orders were redirected or simply failed to arrive, and entire divisions were stranded trying to cross bridge networks that had been blown apart ...

 

... it was two days before ... the Tesstran military and government could rally ... an attempted counter-attack ... Their plans however had been betrayed from within to Alpha Legion infiltration agents placed within the city months previously ... 

The Alpha Legion had used the time between their initial attacks and the final harrowing to infiltrate the Conservation, compromise their communications, and sabotage the battlefield.  They ensured that the Tesstrans' numbers would not only not make a difference in the final battle, but that they would be trapped and helpless.

 

So, do the above tactics represent an effort to take Tesstra as quickly as possible?  No.  Do they, however, amount to a waste of resources?  Also no.  If anything, these tactics parallel what the Index Astartes article stated:

 

 

"... while [his] methods took longer to execute than a simple frontal assault, they were far less costly in troops, enabling Alpharius to spread his forces more widely.

By setting up the battlefield so that he held all the advantages, Alpharius did the opposite of "wasting" resources: he prevented unnecessary losses of men and materiel, albeit at the cost of time.  As such, you can guess that I was somewhat confused by your take on the above quote:

 

 

 

I read that as it requiring fewer manpower to carry out those type of operations, not that fewer casualties were suffered.

It's a case of both.  Those tactics took longer to execute, but they provided the attacking force with overwhelming advantages.  Those advantages offset the need for greater numbers, since a frontal assault was not needed.  Because a frontal assault was not needed, less losses were incurred.

 

Do the above tactics reflect someone's vanity?  I personally don't think so.  I try to reconcile the various sources of fluff to the extent possible, even if it's to accept that one particular source may intentionally present false information.  With that in mind, nothing in the Index Astartes article paints Alpharius as a vain primarch.  Nothing, save for his response to Guilliman after the same battle that Extermination re-tells.  Similarly, the Alpharius shown in Legion is not vain.  Novel and Index Astartes alike agree in portraying a primarch who is pragmatic, driven to seek whatever advantages he can gain, and always encouraging his subordinates to be independent and exercise their own initiative.

 

But maybe it's vanity of a different sort.  Maybe Alpharius resented being berated by Guilliman (though one could easily argue he deserved it, given his lack of cooperation and transparency during a joint operation) and decided he would show him older brother what he could do.

 

Either way, I don't think Alpharius' tactics reflect vanity.  He wasn't just letting the enemy stack the deck so as to get a better "kill count" or what have you.  If anything, Alpharius was trying to show Guilliman that guile, misdirection, and espionage had their place on the battlefield and could set up a devastating attack capable of winning a war.

 

Having had some time to mull this over, though, I think there is another factor at work.  Bear with me for a second, and also take into consideration that this is simply conjecture on my part.

 

Extermination states that the Battle of Tesstra occurred after Horus became Warmaster.  The events of Legion occur four months after Horus became Warmaster.  What if Alpharius' conduct during the campaign against the Conservation aren't informed by mere vanity, but by what the Cabal revealed to him just a short while earlier?

 

One of the ongoing themes of the Heresy (chiefly shown in the Forge World books, but also briefly expressed in the Horus Heresy novels - e.g., in Fallen Angels) is that Horus prepared for Isstvan by setting up a number of plots and contingencies throughout the galaxy.  He scattered loyal legions, inserted agents in key systems, prepared strike forces to seize important objectives, etc.  What if Alpharius' conduct was part of that theme?  That is, what if the Tesstra Compliance occurs sometime between False Gods and Galaxy in Flames?  Under that hypothetical scenario, Horus "gave orders" for the Conservation to be delivered to him still viable but with their society dismantled... but he gave the real orders to Alpharius, which were to ensure that Guilliman didn't get a chance to give the Imperium a productive, loyal system that might fight against the Warmaster when the rebellion began.

 

That, in turn, plays into the paragraphs you cited from Extermination. They, too, are written after Horus became Warmaster.  Depending on the timing (that is, if they reflect a time period between False Gods and Galaxy in Flames), they could be describing a systematic, deliberate effort on Horus' part, to destabilize efforts and prevent productive systems from joining the Imperium.

 

There was also the somewhat related issue of whether the description in the Index Astartes article should be considered at all, for being an older source from 3rd Edition. To me, everything from 2nd Edition that has not been contradicted in a more recent source ist still 'lore', and there are not that many differences between the two accounts of the battle in particular. (The broader description of the Alpha Legion and Alpharius has changed a bit since then, though.) About the most crucial "change" to the Battle for Tesstra in 'Extermination' is that the battle is now said to have been part of a larger joint campaign between the Alpha Legion and the Ultramarines, involving many different worlds, whereas in the Index Astartes article it was more presented as an isolated campaign of the Alpha Legion.

As I said earlier, I try to reconcile the various sources of fluff to the extent possible, even if it's to accept that one particular source may intentionally present false information.  I take certain information from the Index Astartes article with a grain of salt because it begins with a qualifier that it's based on books that are copies of copies or simply forgeries filled with lies.  Ultimately, though, I don't have a problem with it, specifically, since so much of what it contains is essentially copied by Extermination.

 

The mistake I made in the other topic was in interpreting your position as being that the 2nd edition background material and the newer material (Index Astartes, Extermination, Legion, etc.) were mutually exclusive.  Hindsight being 20-20, you clearly  said  Extermination does a great job of reconciling the newer stuff with the older stuff.  That's an eminently fair assessment. 

[Phoebus]

For one, other sources explain that after the Scouring, the Legions were divided into Chapters, and that that had been a known formation from the times of the Great Crusade. That bit of lore no longer makes sense if a Chapter was 10,000 Marines, or at least we have to wonder why Guilliman chose to use the formation of another Legion as the example, and not one the Ultramarines themselves were using. If the Ultramarines used 10,000 strong Chapters consiting of 1,000 strong companies, then why is the current Space Marine force in the 41st Millennium not a "Company"?

Plus, if a Legion was 100,000 Marines, then would it not have been a sufficient reduction in power to reduce the formations to 10,000?

Forge World's Betrayal addresses this quite nicely. It states that the Chapter was originally "comprised roughly of a thousand line Legionaries, but as the Legions grew this began to vary substantially by Legion, ..."

Furthermore, Know No Fear still parallels what Betrayal had to say:

“To take a town, send a legionary; to take a city, send a squad; to take a world, send a company; to take a culture, send a Chapter.”

Excerpt From: Dan Abnett. “Know No Fear.” iBooks.

... a force of hundreds can quell a city in hours. Thousands together can conquer worlds in days, and tens of thousands and even hundreds of thousands wielded at once have been able to doom entire species and reduce civilizations to mere dust and memory in a span no greater than the single course of Terra's orbit around its sun.

Why did Guilliman opt used the "paper" strength of a standard Crusade-era Chapter? Well, because that was the "most common structural basis" that the various legions would have been familiar with. And because ten thousand Space Marines was still deemed too powerful.

I contest conclusion No. 2 on the grounds that if the other Legions like the Space Wolves were still able to sustain a 100,000 strong Legion with a single recruitment world, then a Legion of 250,000 could easily be sustained by nine recruitment worlds.

But thus far, the Forge World books show that most legions weren't dependent on a single recruiting world.

The Sons of Horus, for instance, also called on Serenax and 37 other primary worlds. The World Eaters had Bodt and "several other" feral worlds. Terra also sent recruits to the Emperor's Children, and Fulgrim took the young sons of the ruling elite of worlds he brought into Compliance as aspirants. Besides Medusa, the Iron Hands also had sixteen other systems. The Night Lord were "known to have continued recruiting from subjugated worlds ... in some case stealing away the youth of entire systems as the base from which to winnow suitable aspirants." Besides Colchis, the Word Bearers had rights to three other named worlds and 53 other planets on top of that - and conducted "mass recruitment from eery world they conquered". The Imperial Fists drew not just on Inwit (itself a small stellar empire) and Terra, but on the Solar Domains and "every land they conquered", as well. The Iron Warriors recruited not just from Olympia, but the rest of the Meratara Cluster, as well.

Bottom line, the legions that only drew from a single world appear to have been the exception. Even then, they were able to capitalize on populations of supremely hardened humans (like those of Nocturne), or turned their homeworld into little more than a factory of sorts to produce new recruits ..." (like the Death Guard).

And that's before we even start looking at the possibility that the Five Hundred Worlds weren't all used for recruitment. Many of those could have been used for other types of support or tithing.

That the Apocrypha of Skaros somehow lists the number of Chapters the Legion had shortly before the split would be a workaround, though the sources clearly describe independent formations with their own names and heraldry when they talk about the 23 newly created Chapters. It would be a shoddy workaround for an issue that would not exist if the Legions were 10,000 strong. (Which the current Codex Space Marines still says, btw.)

Don't get me started on the Codex!

In case there was any confusion, though, what I meant was that the Apocrypha of Skaros listed the number of (Ultramarine-size) Chapters before the Second Founding and named those of the 23 that were subsequently turned into proper Codex Chapters. Meaning, each of the 23 in turn created ten Chapters (nominally speaking), and of those only some of the "parent" Chapters are named in Skaros. Does that make more sense?

[Legatus]

Do the above tactics reflect someone's vanity?  I personally don't think so.  I try to reconcile the various sources of fluff to the extent possible, even if it's to accept that one particular source may intentionally present false information.  With that in mind, nothing in the Index Astartes article paints Alpharius as a vain primarch.  Nothing, save for his response to Guilliman after the same battle that Extermination re-tells.  Similarly, the Alpharius shown in Legion is not vain.  Novel and Index Astartes alike agree in portraying a primarch who is pragmatic, driven to seek whatever advantages he can gain, and always encouraging his subordinates to be independent and exercise their own initiative.

 

 

I also disagreed with the premise that he was trying to "show off".

 

 

Both the Index Astartes article and 'Extermination' describe how the Alpha Legion sought to prove their strength, deliberately seeking the most difficult challenges. In the Index Astartes article that description is given immediately before the Battle for Tesstra is described, the description of their tendency to seek challenges leading directly into the account of how they let the Tesstran defense forces gather. In 'Extermination' a much longer description of their tendencies is given, this time independently of the account of the Battle for Tesstra.

 

 

My argument was that Alpharius' strategy did not necessarily equate to a waste of resources.

 

 

In both accounts Alpharius concedes that quickly taking the capital (or taking out the leadership instead of destroying the entire city) would have been the "easier" solution. In both accounts he is criticised by Guilliman for wasting resources. And in the Index Astartes article Alpharius' conduct was criticised from many quarters, not just Guilliman (though what exactly was criticised is not said). Also in both accounts, the significant amount of destruction to the defense forces and/or the capital city was emphasized. All of that suggests that a quick strike at the undefended capital or leadership could have quickly ended the campaign with much less bloodshed. There is no indication whatsoever that the method the Alpha Legion chose was in any way the most efficient use of resources, and a lot of suggestions and even explicite claims to the contrary.

 

 

So, do the above tactics represent an effort to take Tesstra as quickly as possible?  No.  Do they, however, amount to a waste of resources?  Also no.  If anything, these tactics parallel what the Index Astartes article stated:

 

"... while [his] methods took longer to execute than a simple frontal assault, they were far less costly in troops, enabling Alpharius to spread his forces more widely.

 

By setting up the battlefield so that he held all the advantages, Alpharius did the opposite of "wasting" resources: he prevented unnecessary losses of men and materiel, albeit at the cost of time.  As such, you can guess that I was somewhat confused by your take on the above quote:

 

I read that as it requiring fewer manpower to carry out those type of operations, not that fewer casualties were suffered.

 

It's a case of both.  Those tactics took longer to execute, but they provided the attacking force with overwhelming advantages.  Those advantages offset the need for greater numbers, since a frontal assault was not needed.  Because a frontal assault was not needed, less losses were incurred.

 

 

That is not what the Index Astartes article said, though. It would be a reasonable enough conclusion, if it was not contradicted by repeated statements that the Ultramarines generally suffered the least casualties of all the Legions.

 

Both the Index Astartes and 'Extermination' state that the campaigns of the Alpha Legion usually ended in heavy fighting (the "Harrowing"). Plus, 'Extermination' at one point describes how effectve the Alpha Legion was at replacing battlefield losses. Though the latter is in reference to casualties suffered during the Heresy, and not the Crusade, it is reasonable to assume that the practice of quickly replacing losses was learned earlier on, and was not a completely new development during the Heresy.

 

 

Having had some time to mull this over, though, I think there is another factor at work.  Bear with me for a second, and also take into consideration that this is simply conjecture on my part.

 

Extermination states that the Battle of Tesstra occurred after Horus became Warmaster.  The events of Legion occur four months after Horus became Warmaster.  What if Alpharius' conduct during the campaign against the Conservation aren't informed by mere vanity, but by what the Cabal revealed to him just a short while earlier?

 

One of the ongoing themes of the Heresy (chiefly shown in the Forge World books, but also briefly expressed in the Horus Heresy novels - e.g., in Fallen Angels) is that Horus prepared for Isstvan by setting up a number of plots and contingencies throughout the galaxy.  He scattered loyal legions, inserted agents in key systems, prepared strike forces to seize important objectives, etc.  What if Alpharius' conduct was part of that theme?  That is, what if the Tesstra Compliance occurs sometime between False Gods and Galaxy in Flames?  Under that hypothetical scenario, Horus "gave orders" for the Conservation to be delivered to him still viable but with their society dismantled... but he gave the real orders to Alpharius, which were to ensure that Guilliman didn't get a chance to give the Imperium a productive, loyal system that might fight against the Warmaster when the rebellion began.

 

That, in turn, plays into the paragraphs you cited from Extermination. They, too, are written after Horus became Warmaster.  Depending on the timing (that is, if they reflect a time period between False Gods and Galaxy in Flames), they could be describing a systematic, deliberate effort on Horus' part, to destabilize efforts and prevent productive systems from joining the Imperium.

 

 

That the Alpha Legion was intentionally destructive to deny the Imperium productive worlds would be a possibility. They would certainly have had the capability to conduct very effective campaigns, had they been willing to do so. That would still mean that their conduct at Tesstra was wasteful, but it would no longer have been because of a sense of pride.

 

Though, the description of the Alpha Legion's methods in 'Extermination' makes it sound more like a general tendency, not necessarily like something they only developed later on. Though it does suggest that the tendency got worse.

 

 

Forge World's Betrayal addresses this quite nicely.  It states that the Chapter was originally "comprised roughly of a thousand line Legionaries, but as the Legions grew this began to vary substantially by Legion, ..."

 

 

I guess that would be an adequate justification. Though I still don't like how the Ultramarines Legion somehow would go on to use Companies the size of Chapters, instead of just increasing the number of operating Chapters. If a standard operating unit of a Legion is one of 1,000, and each Legion has 100 of those units, then why would a growing Legion start to increase the size of the standard operating unit, instead of just adding to the 100 units? If 1,000 are enough to deal with most situations, have 250 of those fly around, instead of 25 behemoth units. The former would mean that the Legion could conduct 250 standard campaigns simultaneously. The latter means that they could conduct 25 campaigns with overwhelming force, or they would have to divide the Chapters and operate in 1,000 string Companies to conduct more simultaneous campaigns.

 

 

Bottom line, the legions that only drew from a single world appear to have been the exception.

 

 

Only a single Legion needs to be shown to be able to sustain itself on a single homeworld to legitimize the Ultramarines recruiting from 9 worlds. GW/BL/Abnett increased the size because "bigger", and probably so that the Ultramarines could be more incolved and have some personal stakes in the Horus Heresy. I would have been finde with the Ultramarines just wanting to defend the tens of thousands of worlds they had liberated during the Crusade, but whatever, that would not have been personal enough I guess.

 

 

In case there was any confusion, though, what I meant was that the Apocrypha of Skaros listed the number of (Ultramarine-size) Chapters before the Second Founding and named those of the 23 that were subsequently turned into proper Codex Chapters.  Meaning, each of the 23 in turn created ten Chapters (nominally speaking), and of those only some of the "parent" Chapters are named in Skaros.  Does that make more sense?

 

 

I think I know what you mean, but that is not what the sources specifically say, though. Hence why I called it a "workaround". You kinda have to bend the existing descriptions a bit, and assume they were "not very accurate" or perhaps slightly off, to make it work.

[Hyaenidae]

 

 

Bottom line, the legions that only drew from a single world appear to have been the exception.

 

 

 

That any Legion pulls only from one world is debatable, including the Wolves and the TSons. In Scars, it's shown that Terra still recruits heavily for the Legions, despite many of those Legions having their own homeworld. These recruits conduct their training and surgeries on Terra, and are sent to those Legions who are needing replacements. Only after they have been integrated with their Legions do they receive the Gene-seed. One of the protagonists was hoping since youth to be sent to the Luna Wolves, and is disappointed to find out he has been selected for the Scars. Though upset, he consoles himself that it could have been worse, like being sent to the War Hounds or the Wolves of Fenris. This could very well imply that even the Wolves are still sent Terran stock during the Great Crusade, despite having already established a homeworld and their own recruitment system. If I'm remembering correctly, those Terrans who joined the Wolves were easily integrated into the Legion when they found their Father, so it might not be out of the question.

 

Only a single Legion needs to be shown to be able to sustain itself on a single homeworld to legitimize the Ultramarines recruiting from 9 worlds. GW/BL/Abnett increased the size because "bigger", and probably so that the Ultramarines could be more incolved and have some personal stakes in the Horus Heresy. I would have been finde with the Ultramarines just wanting to defend the tens of thousands of worlds they had liberated during the Crusade, but whatever, that would not have been personal enough I guess.

 

I guess the question could be, perhaps the known 9 worlds of the Macragge dominions could simply be considered the 'core', the beating heart, if you will? The other worlds may have very well simply started as a defense pact with the Ultramarines, then as the years went by, it was the worlds themselves who moulded themselves to represent their protectors, offered recruits, etc. A system of natural growth and respect that eventually caused others to look to these worlds as a single empire of the XIII Legion, when the truth is, they simply changed themselves to appear as so. Is that out of the question?

[Wade Garrett]

My question is, how could anyone ever get an accurate count of the Alpha Legion's casualties to compare to the Ultramarines? We are discussing a force whose after action reports most likely consisted of:

 

1. [Redacted in accordance with internal security protocol X3456-tango-charlie]

 

2. Lies

[Noctus Cornix]

I really don't know what this debate about home world's is for. Just look at the Horus Heresy books themselves. On the first page of each legion section it describes their noteworthy domains. The only exception of this is the Alpha Legion which is described as Unknown.

 

Even when we look at Legions like the Raven Guard it states that they had an entire system realm. The Salamander had the Nocturne system, Caldera, and a battle station. The Sons of Horus had 37 other primary tithe worlds in addition to Cthonia, the Word Bearers and the Iron Hands had almost the same recruitment process where they took children from their conquered worlds and brought them back to their home planet. The Only exception to this that I can find right now is the Night Lords but they never really cared about having a high standard anyway and I doubt they gave a rats ass if a world was their tithe property or not.

 

This idea of Legions recruiting from a single world is ridiculous. It works fine when it comes to Chapters, but a Legion? No way.

[Legatus]

"The Emperor's Children

Noteworthy Domains: Chemos (Primary), Terra (tertiary rights)"

- THH 1: Betrayal, p. 102

 

"The Death Guard

Noteworthy Domains: Barbarus [Home World]. No others known."

- THH 1: Betrayal, p. 120

 

"The Night Lords

Noteworthy Domains: Nostramo (destroyed)"

- THH 2: Massacre, p. 92

 

 

The amount of recruitment worlds for other Legions had perhaps more to do with their constant mobilisation, and the convenience to recruit new warriors locally, rather than to have them shipped from back at home. Fleet based Chapters in 40K like the Imperial Fists, the Black Templars and the Dark Angels also recruit from multiple worlds.

[Conn Eremon]

It might be appropriate to point out that it does say "noteworthy" domains. It doesn't necessarily follow, for instance, that the Night Lords only maintained Nostramo as their domain. They very well could have maintained other permanent domains, domains that were more than just temporary bases of recruitment because of convenience or necessity, but not considered 'noteworthy' by this "AK" person, writing this sometime after the Great Scouring.

[Legatus]

I don't think the perspektive is written from after the scouring. In the descriptions of the Legion actions and achievements it strikes me as very much a "current" perspective, i.e. three years into the Heresy. But I haven't gone through all of the books, perhaps that was just from the few passages I read.

 

The Luna Wolves chapter mentions "resource tithe rights on 37 other primary worlds". The World Eaters chapter mentions "recruitment rights of several feral worlds in the Segmenta Solar and Ultima". That sounds rather comprehensive, and not like a small excerpt. 

[lokkorex]

The emperors children still recruited noble sons from conquered worlds if offered.

 

The death guard had at least one emergency influx from another planet than barbarus.

 

Could have sworn i read somewhere that the eight also recruited from other suitable planets...

[mactire]

On the Horus Heresy bit about the Alpha's maintaining manpower despite losses surely this has something to do with the Primarch tech stolen from the Ravens in DL. They gave a screwed up version to Bile and kept the pure version for themselves.

[Conn Eremon]

I don't think the perspektive is written from after the scouring. In the descriptions of the Legion actions and achievements it strikes me as very much a "current" perspective, i.e. three years into the Heresy. But I haven't gone through all of the books, perhaps that was just from the few passages I read.

 

The Luna Wolves chapter mentions "resource tithe rights on 37 other primary worlds". The World Eaters chapter mentions "recruitment rights of several feral worlds in the Segmenta Solar and Ultima". That sounds rather comprehensive, and not like a small excerpt.

Mention is made how the details of battles don't come to light until Scouring forces have passed through.

 

And, to me, "noteworthy" domains means there were domains that were not included, and noteworthy "domains" means these were actual Legion holdings.

[Legatus]

The death guard had at least one emergency influx from another planet than barbarus.

 

 

Was that because Barbarus was unable to supply enough recruits, or was that because the far away Legion was in dire need for new recruits and just recruited froma nearby world?

 

 

And, to me, "noteworthy" domains means there were domains that were not included, and noteworthy "domains" means these were actual Legion holdings.

 

 

But if the Luna Wolves and World Eaters chapters mention "X further worlds where they can recruit/tithe", then perhaps "noteworthy" means all the worlds that are of any strategic value, and not smaller colonies that pledged allegiance to the Legion for mere honorary reasons, without really conributing anything.

 

 

Mention is made how the details of battles don't come to light until Scouring forces have passed through.

 

 

You wouldn't happen to remember where that was said in particular, by any chance?

[1ncarnadine]

 

Mention is made how the details of battles don't come to light until Scouring forces have passed through.

 

 

You wouldn't happen to remember where that was said in particular, by any chance?

 

 

All over the Conquest book, I just passed over one on pg 42 referring to Manachea and I feel like I've already seen them mention coming back for other worlds and finding logs in two other places.

 

I think different HH books may have different perspectives too, it's interesting how many things Conquest refers to that haven't "happened" in the FW HH books so far (burning of prospero, ravenguard geneseed problems).

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

 

Mention is made how the details of battles don't come to light until Scouring forces have passed through.

 

You wouldn't happen to remember where that was said in particular, by any chance?

All over the Conquest book, I just passed over one on pg 42 referring to Manachea and I feel like I've already seen them mention coming back for other worlds and finding logs in two other places.

I will be looking for actual page numbers tonight, but the one that immediately pops to mind is actually one from a /tg/ thread that was quoting Conquest. It outright states this one battle was a complete mystery until Scouring forces combed through the ashes and found data on it. Again, I'll look for actual quotes later.

 

 

As for domains, you are right. Perhaps so. I just wanted to point out that it could potentially be "perhaps not so." That it isn't set in stone.

 

Maybe, for instance, the Sons of Horus and World Eaters list additional domains where others do not, because of different reasons. Maybe it was noteworthy for the Sons of Horus to do this, but it was expected of the Night Lords (as a random example). So one lists them while another does not. Maybe it was noteworthy for the World Eaters, because they didn't have a prime source like others. Maybe it was noteworthy of the Salamanders to note that one other domain, because of its significance to the original Terran Legion, but the twenty other domains of comparable significance to the later Legion did not have it prior as well, and so were not noteworthy.

[Conn Eremon]

It looks like the specific quote I had in mind is the same one LetsYouDown was referencing:

 

"All of this is recorded in the deep-core archive of Hive Ilium, recovered from its ruins many years later when the ashes of the Commonwealth were raked over by the forces of the Great Scouring, shedding light on a tragedy that until then had remained just one more mystery of this great and unknown war."   -  pg 42, Conquest

 

But really, the biggest sign that this is a post-Heresy accounting is this:

 

"I saw, with eyes then young, and this is my testament. I was there when Tallarn burned and Keoptis drowned in oceans of blood. I witnessed the skies of Terra riven with lightning and shadow on the day that the Warmaster came and hell followed with him. I heard the funeral bell toll for the Emperor of Humanity and wept.

 

I remember.

 

AK"   - Preface to Betrayal, pg 9

 

Whoever AK is, this person experienced the Age of Darkness first hand, and makes an accounting of it sometime during or after the Scouring. Those exact words are repeated in Massacre and Extinction. However, the words immediately prior to it change. It's AK telling an audience what will be told. In Betrayal, AK talks about how the seeds of corruption were sown. In Massacre, it's the Drop-site Massacre. In Extinction, it's how the fires of war spread from Isstvan to engulf the galaxy. AK is the narrator of these books. They are AK's testament.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

The death guard had at least one emergency influx from another planet than barbarus.

 

 

Was that because Barbarus was unable to supply enough recruits, or was that because the far away Legion was in dire need for new recruits and just recruited froma nearby world?

 

It was because Barbarus alone couldn't always keep pace with the Death Guard's abnormally high attrition rates, occasionally necessitating other sources of recruits to maintain their numbers. So I don't see a problem in a single world being able to support a Legion with a more normal attrition rate (the DG having one of the 3 highest attrition rates amongst the Legions, though I believe the IWs and WEs were worse).

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't see what the big deal is other than personal preference for legions to all be from their normal home world.

[Legatus]

It looks like the specific quote I had in mind is the same one LetsYouDown was referencing:

 

"All of this is recorded in the deep-core archive of Hive Ilium, recovered from its ruins many years later when the ashes of the Commonwealth were raked over by the forces of the Great Scouring, shedding light on a tragedy that until then had remained just one more mystery of this great and unknown war."   -  pg 42, Conquest

 

But really, the biggest sign that this is a post-Heresy accounting is this:

 

"I saw, with eyes then young, and this is my testament. I was there when Tallarn burned and Keoptis drowned in oceans of blood. I witnessed the skies of Terra riven with lightning and shadow on the day that the Warmaster came and hell followed with him. I heard the funeral bell toll for the Emperor of Humanity and wept.

 

I remember.

 

AK"   - Preface to Betrayal, pg 9

 

 

Sounds legit. Somehow I had gotten the impression that the books were written from a current in-Heresy perspective, but then I have only read select parts of the books, not gone through all of them.

 

While looking for perhaps an example of where the Sons of Horus accounts "end", I found this bit:

 

"Even though less than a century separate us from these events we can never be sure of such numbers given the cataclysm and strife which followed,"

- THH 1: Betrayal, p. 79

 

The "events" in question could be the entire heresy, but it seems to be specifically the Istvaan III massacre. That could mean a perspective from shortly after the Heresy, though a perspective from close to approaching the end would also be possible.

 

Either way, these are just trivial details. The accounts was written fairly recently after those events occurred, in historical terms. Especially for 40K standards.

 

Besides, some Legions, or even all of them, recruiting from worlds other than their homeworlds does not demonstrate that Ultramar had to be bigger. It would only demonstrate that perhaps the Ultramarines also recruited from worlds other than their home realm.

[Phoebus]

 

"The Emperor's Children

Noteworthy Domains: Chemos (Primary), Terra (tertiary rights)"

- THH 1: Betrayal, p. 102

 

"The Death Guard

Noteworthy Domains: Barbarus [Home World]. No others known."

- THH 1: Betrayal, p. 120

 

"The Night Lords

Noteworthy Domains: Nostramo (destroyed)"

- THH 2: Massacre, p. 92

 

 

The amount of recruitment worlds for other Legions had perhaps more to do with their constant mobilisation, and the convenience to recruit new warriors locally, rather than to have them shipped from back at home. Fleet based Chapters in 40K like the Imperial Fists, the Black Templars and the Dark Angels also recruit from multiple worlds.

 

I won't be able to offer you a reply to your earlier post until this evening, but where this is concerned you need to actually read into the war disposition and history sections of each legion.  Believe me, I did, which is why I was able to break down for you the recruiting sources for each of the legions in my last post.

Whoever AK is, ...

I offered my guess in another subject some time ago:  Amendera Kendel, an Oblivion Knight who featured in Flight of the Eisenstein, and who Malcador implies will be in a position to have a say in such documents:

 

 

“The Warmaster’s disposition has made it clear that the Imperium requires men and women of inquisitive nature, hunters who might seek the witch, the traitor, the mutant, the xenos… Warriors like you, Nathaniel Garro, Iacton Qruze, Amendera Kendel, who could root out the taint of any future treachery: a duty to vigilance.”

 

Excerpt From: James Swallow. “The Flight of the Eisenstein.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/8azZy.l

[Conn Eremon]

While I would accept a silent sister as the one bearing witness, part of me hopes for a soldier of the Imperialis Excertus, as the Imperial Army is called. Sort of like an Ollanius Pius character, but not a Custodes or a Perpetual. Just a Guardsman or Guardswoman. A soldier of the line, young in the beginning, rising in rank throughout the terrible war until he or she becomes somebody of note, someone with weight in the new Imperium.

[Castiel]

 

Whoever AK is, ...

I offered my guess in another subject some time ago:  Amendera Kendel, an Oblivion Knight who featured in Flight of the Eisenstein, and who Malcador implies will be in a position to have a say in such documents:

 

 

“The Warmaster’s disposition has made it clear that the Imperium requires men and women of inquisitive nature, hunters who might seek the witch, the traitor, the mutant, the xenos… Warriors like you, Nathaniel Garro, Iacton Qruze, Amendera Kendel, who could root out the taint of any future treachery: a duty to vigilance.”

 

Excerpt From: James Swallow. “The Flight of the Eisenstein.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/8azZy.l

 

Oh, good shout. I'd been trying to figure it out, I was looking at the remembrancers, but Kendel would make sense.