The Slowly-Trickling Doses of the Horus Heresy

[Phoebus]

Scribe of Khorne,

Speaking purely for myself, I have no problem reading about the Shattered Legions. I do have a problem reading about them as they are currently being presented.

Hasn't most of the big name writers moved on to new projects?

Not that I'm aware of. Dan Abnett has various other projects, and ADB has said he's not feeling like doing Heresy at the moment, but that's all I'm aware of. McNeill, Swallow, Annandale, Wraight, Kyme, Thorpe, Sanders, Smillie, Reynolds, Haley and French have all produced stuff for it this year, Farrer even had something out in the advent calendar. The only ones who haven't done anything for the series recently are Mike Lee, Mitchel Scanlon and Ben Counter, and sorry to say but I can't say I'm disappointed in those And the only authors who have written a novel for the series before but haven't had one out in the last two years are Thorpe and Swallow, and Thorpe's confirmed one in the works, while Swallow is still producing Garro stuff.

With respect to everyone involved in this post, Marshal asked about "big name writers", and you named all of the writers who have worked on the Horus Heresy series.

Don't get me wrong, I think Chris Wraight is putting out really good stuff and David Annandale is similarly showing promise. Let's be blunt here, though: there are four authors whose Horus Heresy novels have made the NYT Bestsellers list; two of them appear to be going to other directions for the time being, and a third has primarily been working on the Garro material.

[Marshal Rohr]

Does anyone know what's in Legacies of Betrayal before I drop 16 bucks on it?

[Phoebus]

That's the thing, they're generally not essential. If they were, then I'd absolutely agree.

 

Chaeron, referencing my two examples from the original post, I can't believe you would tell me that the fall of Caliban isn't absolutely the most essential piece of background lore of the Dark Angels.  It defines what they become.  Similarly, besides the Red Thirst and the Black Rage, what other piece of Blood Angels backgrounds rivaled the origins of ...

 

 

... Sanguinor ...

 

 

... so recently revealed in "Herald of Sanguinius"?

 

No lore within this universe is defining, safe or ever present - it's one author's perspective that we recognise contributes to the whole, but can be readily ignored or taken in whatever way you prefer.

 

I have to disagree.  What you're proposing might work when we're talking about, e.g., "new" Black Templars versus "old" Black Templars:  that is, one author's perspective versus that of another.  It's a bit different when there has never been another take outside the Codices, and the only one we're getting now is diluted across half a dozen stories with only tangential connection between each one.

 

What you're essentially proposing is, "you're always free to imagine how the story might have been, had it actually been told."

 

 

This isn't isolated - it's happening to most legions. I'd much rather they increased output covering a variety of media and exploring it in different ways than simply not having a release. In taking this stance, I get the best of all worlds. From a business view, it allows them to have many people contribute, explore multiple formats and add to the rich panoply of backgrounds they're fleshing out - without losing revenue from lack of releases, it tides them over until the next major book release.

 

Chaeron, I'm not talking about not having these formats.  I'm talking about:

 

1. Them being used to tell the actually shorter, actually tangential stories that are more suited to said formats to begin with.

2. If they must be used to tell key ongoing stories, that they be nailed down better.  That is, for them to actually provide a larger narrative instead of a series of one-off, "pass the time until the next one" episodes with little connectivity to one another.

 

What you and I want are not mutually exclusive.

[Phoebus]

Does anyone know what's in Legacies of Betrayal before I drop 16 bucks on it?

 

1. Brotherhood of the Storm, a White Scars novella by Chris Wraight.

2. "Serpent", an e-short by John French.

3. "Hunter's Moon", the prose version of the audio drama by Guy Haley.

4. "Veritas Ferrum", by David Annandale, an e-short prequel to Damnation of Pythos.

5. "Riven", by John French.

6. "Strike and Fade", an e-short by Guy Haley.

7. "Honour to the Dead", the prose version of the audio drama by Gav Thorpe.

8. "Butcher's Nails", the prose version of the audio drama by Aaron Dembski-Bowden.

9. "Warmaster", an e-short by John French.

10. "Kryptos", by Graham McNeill.

11. "Wolf's Claw", an e-short by Chris Wraight.

12. "Thief of Revelations", the prose version of the audio drama by Graham McNeill.

13. "The Divine Word", by Gav Thorpe.

14. "Lucius, the Eternal Blade", the prose version of the audio drama by Graham McNeill.

15. "The Eightfold Path", an e-short by Anthony Reynolds.

16. "Cypher, Guardian of Order", the prose version of the audio drama by Gav Thorpe.

17. "Heart of the Conqueror", an e-short by Aaron Dembski-Bowden.

18. "Censure", by Nick Kyme.

19. "Lone Wolf", an e-short by Chris Wraight.

 

... and an extract of "Child of Night", by John French.

 

Each e-short is about 3-4 pages long.

 

I hope this helps you make an informed decision!

[Tymell]

That goes without saying, but we're not talking about racking and stacking one novel against another. That is, it's not as if the authors write their novels, assemble, and decide which ones will get published in that format by virtue of being "the best". I'm talking about a process of prioritization.

In which case I'd then move on to simply who had been waiting longest. But really, I'd say the whole question is moot, since there's no indication that there -is- any limit to plan for.

With respect to everyone involved in this post, Marshal asked about "big name writers", and you named all of the writers who have worked on the Horus Heresy series.

I did so just because "big name writers" could mean different things to different people. And whichever ones you're referring to, there's nothing that equates "most of the writers moving on". Some have other things they work on, but the writers aren't contractually obliged to work on HH and only HH, and none have expressed any intention of "moving on" from the series.

4. "Veritas Ferrum", by David Annandale, an e-short prequel to Damnation of Pythos.

6. "Strike and Fade", an e-short by Guy Haley.

9. "Warmaster", an e-short by John French.

11. "Wolf's Claw", an e-short by Chris Wraight.

15. "The Eightfold Path", an e-short by Anthony Reynolds.

Just a minor point, but the above are prose versions of audio originals, rather than e-shorts Short audios, the same sort of length as Lucius: The Eternal Blade(master) or Cypher: Guardian of Order.

[Marshal Rohr]

That doesn't look too bad. Lots of my favorite authors stories I haven't had a chance to read yet. 

[Phoebus]

In which case I'd then move on to simply who had been waiting longest. But really, I'd say the whole question is moot, since there's no indication that there -is- any limit to plan for.

 

There is, though.  Whether by design or not, there's clearly a 2-4 novel limit to what Black Library can put out for the Horus Heresy, per annum.

[Tymell]

There is, though.  Whether by design or not, there's clearly a 2-4 novel limit to what Black Library can put out for the Horus Heresy, per annum.

I'd argue there's a distinction between how much gets created and put out, and an actual limit.

 

As in, there's nothing to suggest Black Library got a ton of novels from their authors in 2014 but had to turn them all aside saying, "Nope, we've already filled the two slots for this year, can't do any more."

[Chaeron]

 

There is, though. Whether by design or not, there's clearly a 2-4 novel limit to what Black Library can put out for the Horus Heresy, per annum.

I'd argue there's a distinction between how much gets created and put out, and an actual limit.

 

As in, there's nothing to suggest Black Library got a ton of novels from their authors in 2014 but had to turn them all aside saying, "Nope, we've already filled the two slots for this year, can't do any more."

I'm reasonably sure (as per discussions with staff and authors) it's more to do with timescales and book ordering. If at their regular meetings they have space and authors could contribute x number of totles, there's no doubt in my mind they would. GW and by extension BL wants you to part with your cash now, holding a novel isn't worth it - especially if they'll release in several formats anyway!

[Phoebus]

Like I said, whatever the reason behind it ends up being, it is effectively a limit.  Call it a finite number of authors, call it a conflict with other series that need releases (e.g., Dan Abnett is behind on Warmaster), call it A D-B suffering legitimate burnout on the Heresy and wanting to take some time off from it.  Is it a limit in the sense that Black Library says, "Two novels in 2014, and no more!" per se?  No.  But it is a limit all the same: different reasons play a role every year, but the bottom line is that we get 2-4 Heresy novels, per year.

[Tymell]

Yes, but (unless I mis-read it badly) your original point was questioning whether Damnation of Pythos should have been given a slot in the release schedule, as if it took up a space that could've been given to something else. That's the point I was attempting to respond to anyway, apologies if I screwed up and totally mis-read it

My point is that there's nothing suggesting the schedule works like that, as a case of assigning queued up novels a "slot". If we didn't get Pythos in 2014, there's nothing to indicate we would've gotten something else. We would've had 1 novel instead of 2.

[Phoebus]

I probably muddled up the waters by bringing up Pythos, specifically.  Again, I have nothing against the novel.  I think it's rather good, minus some quibbles that I had.  I simply question whether it behooves Black Library to devote one of the two to four novel slots they can reasonably expect to be limited to on any given year to a stand-alone novel when there has been (among other things) an ongoing storyline that has been relegated to a not-optimally connected series told in "less-than-novel formats".

 

If this conversation were taking place in, say, 2010, and the events of Deliverance Lost were told exclusively through shorts and audios that didn't really connect with one another, I'd be questioning why the emphasis was on James Swallow and Graham McNeill writing Nemesis and The Outcast Dead, instead.

[Chaeron]

Like I said, whatever the reason behind it ends up being, it is effectively a limit.  Call it a finite number of authors, call it a conflict with other series that need releases (e.g., Dan Abnett is behind on Warmaster), call it A D-B suffering legitimate burnout on the Heresy and wanting to take some time off from it.  Is it a limit in the sense that Black Library says, "Two novels in 2014, and no more!" per se?  No.  But it is a limit all the same: different reasons play a role every year, but the bottom line is that we get 2-4 Heresy novels, per year.

 

If that's the way it is though, how can we change that?! I understand you'd rather have a more comprehensive book and wait longer for it to unpick the key strands - but it's simply wishlisting. I don't see how this can imminently change!

[Chaeron]

 

That's the thing, they're generally not essential. If they were, then I'd absolutely agree.

 

Chaeron, referencing my two examples from the original post, I can't believe you would tell me that the fall of Caliban isn't absolutely the most essential piece of background lore of the Dark Angels.  It defines what they become.  Similarly, besides the Red Thirst and the Black Rage, what other piece of Blood Angels backgrounds rivaled the origins of ...

 

 

... Sanguinor ...

 

 

... so recently revealed in "Herald of Sanguinius"?

 

But the Fall of Caliban - in this instance, if as huge and monumental (as we probably both agree) in their lifespan, cannot always be dealt with in a single tome. Nor, if there one perspective. It's just like this 'argument', in that - we both come at it from two different sides, not wholly different, but working around a single topic. I get it'd be lovely to have it in one book that adequately covers it all - but do you buy a single boxset of Dark Angels to complete your collection?

 

That there is another reason why they package it separately and you have to 'collect' them.

 

 

No lore within this universe is defining, safe or ever present - it's one author's perspective that we recognise contributes to the whole, but can be readily ignored or taken in whatever way you prefer.

 

I have to disagree.  What you're proposing might work when we're talking about, e.g., "new" Black Templars versus "old" Black Templars:  that is, one author's perspective versus that of another.  It's a bit different when there has never been another take outside the Codices, and the only one we're getting now is diluted across half a dozen stories with only tangential connection between each one.

 

What you're essentially proposing is, "you're always free to imagine how the story might have been, had it actually been told."

 

You'll find it's what most authors and game designers currently say: whether you choose to accept that is entirely up to you. It's all as equally valid, and may just as such be entirely false. If you don't want to take the publisher's and authors' respective stance on this - it's entirely up to you!

 

 

This isn't isolated - it's happening to most legions. I'd much rather they increased output covering a variety of media and exploring it in different ways than simply not having a release. In taking this stance, I get the best of all worlds. From a business view, it allows them to have many people contribute, explore multiple formats and add to the rich panoply of backgrounds they're fleshing out - without losing revenue from lack of releases, it tides them over until the next major book release.

 

Chaeron, I'm not talking about not having these formats.  I'm talking about:

 

1. Them being used to tell the actually shorter, actually tangential stories that are more suited to said formats to begin with.

2. If they must be used to tell key ongoing stories, that they be nailed down better.  That is, for them to actually provide a larger narrative instead of a series of one-off, "pass the time until the next one" episodes with little connectivity to one another.

 

What you and I want are not mutually exclusive.

 

I think this is where we do start to come closer in opinion. If this was what you were driving at all along - it's something I could support, but this wasn't clear!

 

Again, I think it's probably because they're playing the long game and can see the whole picture, the wider narrative, that to us it appears disparate and unconnected - and frustrating for a collector, but may, in time, come together in a more satisfying way.

[Phoebus]

But the Fall of Caliban - in this instance, if as huge and monumental (as we probably both agree) in their lifespan, cannot always be dealt with in a single tome. Nor, if there one perspective. It's just like this 'argument', in that - we both come at it from two different sides, not wholly different, but working around a single topic. I get it'd be lovely to have it in one book that adequately covers it all - but do you buy a single boxset of Dark Angels to complete your collection?

That there is another reason why they package it separately and you have to 'collect' them.

I'm sorry, Chaeron, I'm not trying to come off as rude but that strikes me as such a corporate answer. Additionally, it ignores my oft-repeated position in this thread, that, if this is how such a tale will be told, those other-than-novel formats need to be improved on (see earlier qualifiers). Right now, they are an absolutely mixed batch. If your position on this matter is going to be that you're happy with what you're getting right now, let's agree to disagree. Most of the Heresy and 40k releases, the e-shorts excepted, are priced at a premium. I expect better quality for the price.

And that's what this conversation really boils down to. If you're happy with the status quo, fair enough. By now, however, it should be obvious that I'm not, so answers that essentially say "... but you should be!" aren't exactly going to be received well!

(kidding, of course)

You'll find it's what most authors and game designers currently say: whether you choose to accept that is entirely up to you. It's all as equally valid, and may just as such be entirely false. If you don't want to take the publisher's and authors' respective stance on this - it's entirely up to you!

See above.

If that's the way it is though, how can we change that?! I understand you'd rather have a more comprehensive book and wait longer for it to unpick the key strands - but it's simply wishlisting. I don't see how this can imminently change!

I suppose on one level it sounds like that, but it's more a plea for common sense. Know No Fear, for instance, captures what is probably the most important bit of Ultramarines Heresy background lore. Can you imagine someone trying to convince you that, rather than a novel that purports to tell the Battle of Calth, you should sit back and enjoy a collection of e-shorts and audio dramas spread around a two-year (or longer) period - not all of which connect in any fashion, and some of which require you to make event-exclusive purchases?

[hopkins]

Last time I complained about too much filler and not enough killer, all those threads were beautifully integrated into The Unremembered Empire

But aside from that book, and Vengeful Spirit, the story just seems to be treading water, and isn't exciting me as it has in the past

I want them to shine the spotlight on Caliban, Macragge, Magnus, Terra and Mars and tell the big stories

 

Thankfully, the End Times has kept my fluff boner up in the meantime