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Templar/Phalanx Warder Upgrade kits


Balthamal

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I'm not so sure. Legs, backpacks, right arms and shoulder pads isn't an inconsiderable amount. My only gripe with the HH stuff really is the pieces left over - I've got at least 15 heads/torsos and probably double that in shoulder pads. I think if FW were to sell things like the packs and/or legs separately they'd probably be a great money spinner

I'm not so sure. Legs, backpacks, right arms and shoulder pads isn't an inconsiderable amount. My only gripe with the HH stuff really is the pieces left over - I've got at least 15 heads/torsos and probably double that in shoulder pads. I think if FW were to sell things like the packs and/or legs separately they'd probably be a great money spinner

I didn't even think about backpacks haha. But yeah you'll still have the body, head and arm from a marine, and shoulder pads (the Warder set has 10 shoulder pads in it).

Before I say anything else, I've been waiting for these for a long time, and am really stoked about these coming out (along with some other people on this forum)...

 

.. but I have to rant and get this out of my system. Seriously, this is going to be a rant as I've just realised something.

 

As mentioned in this thread and other threads, this is an upgrade kit and you need to get some stock MkIII / MkIV kits in order to complete the models. Specifically legs, backpacks, and some arms. This puts the models at a price as you have to purchase a stock MkIII / MkIV kit and the upgrade kits to make these models, and that's expensive. For arguments sake, some will argue that this has been done for a while with the upgrade shoulder pads, torso sets, and head swaps - but ultimately those were optional, you have to buy both sets to make Phalanx Wardens or Templar Bretheren.

 

What I didn't realise before, and was in the item descriptions, was the mention of "Completed models shown built using the Legion Mk III Despoiler Squad, available separately" (taken from Forgeworld website). I thought to myself that this was cheeky, pointing people to the more expensive Despoiler kits rather than the cheaper Tactical kits that I was planning to use, but looking at the kit's it dawned on me:

  • The Phalanx Wardens cannot use the standard Tactical kit as they require a Right arm to hold the axe, and the Right arm in a Tactical kit is bent at 90 degrees and has a hand holding the trigger of a boltgun. You need the Despoiler kit, or a weapon upgrade pack, for the unbent arm with no hand attached.
  • Same for the Templar Bretheren, except you need both arms unbent with no attached arms, i.e. the Despoiler or Special Weapons kits.

 

So, to make 5 guys you need a £22 upgrade kit on top of a £33 Despoiler kit - £11 per guy, that's not great value. Especially considering the Phalanx Wardens which require only a small subset of the components of the Despoiler Kit to be complete (Legs, backpack, right arm - that's it). Frankly there's no reason why they couldn't have made this a complete kit (as with some of the other PA kits - Iron Hands Tactical for example) and up the price to say £35. For a complete kit of that detail, that's a good price point in my eyes, even £40 would be cheaper that the situation we're in now.

 

I think I need to rethink this IF Legion I was planning, and I'll be writing to ForgeWorld "suggesting" that they may want to make this upgrade pack a full kit. However I think my mail may be lost among the countless orders that come in for these.

 

Rant over - I do love these kits, the aesthetic and detail on them are superb, I'm just a bit miffed on them being so expensive once you factor everything in.

I understand the strength of feeling you have, m_r_parker, and agree that the kits would be better as standalone. In the past, FW have altered the pricing and make-up of their kits based on customer feedback, so it's well worth letting them know.

 

In FW's defence, this approach does allow you to pick the mark of armour you'll use, which will help some people keep a uniform appearance. Additionally, while you'll use up some of the bits from the Despoiler kits, you'll end up with plenty spare – and perfectly useable – which can be scattered amongst your army for effect, or combined with other spares. Also, if you're picking up a whole army in one go with the intention of scattering these pieces around for flavour, the make-up of the kits starts to look a bit more understandable.

 

However, as I say above, I think they would have worked better as standalone complete kits. As it is, I can suggest that bits sites might help – straight right arms and suitable legs are relatively cheap in plastic, if you're happy to combine bits like that. Selling bits you don't want is also a good way to cushion the cost.

M_r, it's this very thing that drives people into the arms of recasters, where they can buy the parts they need to complete these upgrade kits for a fraction of having to buy a full 5 man squad on top of the upgrade. For those of us in the States, there's a 15% charge for shipping, tax, etc. That comes out to 63.25 GBP or $98.

 

To keep people from running off to Chinese and Russian recasters, they really should just do away with these really in depth upgrade kits and offer them as standalone versions in multiple armor marks.

 

Apologist, for those of us that can't drop $100 on a 5 man squad, the spares for our bits box doesn't really make the pill any easier to swallow.

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the shoulder pad price hike yet. Only getting 5 for the same price every other Legion done already pays for 10? That's not only pretty awful gouging, even by the standards of GW, This also sets a bad precedent for those of us whose Legions haven't been done yet.

Really happy these are upgrade kits, and I hope from here on out the legs/body/head-all-one-thing is something of the past moving forward with other special legion units. Ideally, you'd get the legs, powerplants, and everything else you needed in one package. But price-moaning when it comes to Forge World always makes me laugh -- rants are just moaning/whining if you're not going to vote with your dollars and opt out.

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the shoulder pad price hike yet. Only getting 5 for the same price every other Legion done already pays for 10? That's not only pretty awful gouging, even by the standards of GW, This also sets a bad precedent for those of us whose Legions haven't been done yet.

 

Picture is of 5, set says it contains 10.

 

 

Apologist, for those of us that can't drop $100 on a 5 man squad, the spares for our bits box doesn't really make the pill any easier to swallow.

Heh, believe me, what with an upcoming wedding I'm not in the position to drop $100 on anything!

 

What I'm trying to say is that a full kit is not always the best answer, and that there are advantages to an upgrade pack in that it can make an army cheaper and less wasteful. That sounds counter-intuitive, but for someone like me the upgrade pack approach is more attractive.

 

Option 1:

The Iron Hand MkIII squad is available for £33. This comes complete, but locks you into a certain armour mark and boltgun variant – fine if that's what you're after, fo course. No bits are left spare, though of course you can convert and kitbash with other kits.

 

For ten marines, it's £66. For twenty, £132... and so on.

 

Option 2:

In contrast, to buy a five-man squad (again of Iron Hands, for the sake of the example), costs £23.50 for the five basic models; £11.50 for ten boltguns; £11.50 for ten heads; £11.50 for ten bodies and £9.50 for ten shoulder pads – a total of £67.50; twice the price of the full set in option 1. However, the next five models cost the price of the five basic models – £23.50 – with the spare bits coming from the remainder of the previous order. 

 

For ten marines, that's £91. For twenty, £182. No contest, right?

 

Looking at it on this small scale, it's clear option 1 is cheaper – and if you're after a uniform force, undoubtedly better. However, if you're after a more diverse army, or you're buying bits to use across different small forces, option 2 has a couple of benefits. First off, it leaves plenty of bits spare – with the example above, you end up with ten spare shoulder pads, ten spare bodies and ten spare heads. Importantly, these can be any armour mark you choose, which allows you to build a more diverse army, or combine creatively things in unusual ways, or to have a second different army. 

 

Secondly, by buying cheaper plastic marines (even at RRP they're roughly half the price of the FW sets for ten) I can make use of these leftovers to make a more diverse army. On the macro-scale – more than fifty models – this second approach starts to become cheaper than the first.

 

There's also a third option, and that's to scatter the bits about more thinly – using just two or three FW pieces on plastic marines. This can work out much, much cheaper than either of the first two options. It's how I built a 1000pt Iron Hand army for less than £100; and I don't think that the presence of the plastic bits detracts from their appearance in the slightest. On the contrary, the more diverse look is to my taste.

 

+++

All of which is not to say that there's a right way or a wrong way. In a perfect world, both upgrade and full pack options would be there for people (just as they are with the Iron Hands). If you feel strongly that you'd like a full pack, write to FW – they've changed things in the past to suit customer demand :)

Theres always combining with a bundle. Which is what I'm saving for to do my terror squads. Theres savings in that, plus we knew this was not going to be cheap when we started. Hobbying to your means ladies and gents. Plus IF got their bits which a percentage have been begging for! No pleasing some folk clearly, enjoy what you have! We're gonna be waiting years for an Emperor model

Theres always combining with a bundle. Which is what I'm saving for to do my terror squads. Theres savings in that, plus we knew this was not going to be cheap when we started. Hobbying to your means ladies and gents. Plus IF got their bits which a percentage have been begging for! No pleasing some folk clearly, enjoy what you have! We're gonna be waiting years for an Emperor model

I think 'no pleasing some folk' is a bit of an unreasonable thing to say to this, because it's a very valid argument. It costs £11 a model for the Warders or Templars, without the 12% shipping on top of that. That's pretty ridiculous, even for this expensive part of an expensive hobby. All well and good saying 'everyone was waiting for them' but that doesn't excuse such a high price.

Well looks like ill be spending all my xmas and new years money in one go.

 

Im beyond happy that I lucked out on the painting of my kitbashed templars: its nearly identical scheme-wise.

 

Going to be needing 20 phalanx warders....

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