Templar/Phalanx Warder Upgrade kits

[ninjasuperspy]

Before I say anything else, I've been waiting for these for a long time, and am really stoked about these coming out (along with some other people on this forum)...

 

.. but I have to rant and get this out of my system. Seriously, this is going to be a rant as I've just realised something.

 

As mentioned in this thread and other threads, this is an upgrade kit and you need to get some stock MkIII / MkIV kits in order to complete the models. Specifically legs, backpacks, and some arms. This puts the models at a price as you have to purchase a stock MkIII / MkIV kit and the upgrade kits to make these models, and that's expensive. For arguments sake, some will argue that this has been done for a while with the upgrade shoulder pads, torso sets, and head swaps - but ultimately those were optional, you have to buy both sets to make Phalanx Wardens or Templar Bretheren.

 

What I didn't realise before, and was in the item descriptions, was the mention of "Completed models shown built using the Legion Mk III Despoiler Squad, available separately" (taken from Forgeworld website). I thought to myself that this was cheeky, pointing people to the more expensive Despoiler kits rather than the cheaper Tactical kits that I was planning to use, but looking at the kit's it dawned on me:

• The Phalanx Wardens cannot use the standard Tactical kit as they require a Right arm to hold the axe, and the Right arm in a Tactical kit is bent at 90 degrees and has a hand holding the trigger of a boltgun. You need the Despoiler kit, or a weapon upgrade pack, for the unbent arm with no hand attached.
• Same for the Templar Bretheren, except you need both arms unbent with no attached arms, i.e. the Despoiler or Special Weapons kits.

 

So, to make 5 guys you need a £22 upgrade kit on top of a £33 Despoiler kit - £11 per guy, that's not great value. Especially considering the Phalanx Wardens which require only a small subset of the components of the Despoiler Kit to be complete (Legs, backpack, right arm - that's it). Frankly there's no reason why they couldn't have made this a complete kit (as with some of the other PA kits - Iron Hands Tactical for example) and up the price to say £35. For a complete kit of that detail, that's a good price point in my eyes, even £40 would be cheaper that the situation we're in now.

 

I think I need to rethink this IF Legion I was planning, and I'll be writing to ForgeWorld "suggesting" that they may want to make this upgrade pack a full kit. However I think my mail may be lost among the countless orders that come in for these.

 

Rant over - I do love these kits, the aesthetic and detail on them are superb, I'm just a bit miffed on them being so expensive once you factor everything in.

 

I'm in a similar space with my Alphas. About two years of completely irresponsible eBaying buying whatever I think looks coolest at the time has me rolling in torsos, legs, heads & (special) weapons but I'm low on bolters & arms to hold them. I was going to buy a Despoiler squad to address my lack as I really don't need that many parts to make up two or more tactical squads but the only way to get the right arms for bolters is to buy a tactical squad kit and a separate bag of guns. Despoilers, Assault Squads, Destroyers, Power Weapon bags are all the pistol/CCW arms.

 

Also: Don't tell Dorn but I'm totally stealing that Archaeotech pistol and a few of those Warder MK IV helms when they hit eBay.

 

Wait, I'm doing it again! I really need somebody to sit next to me & squirt me with a spray bottle when I buy parts that get me further away from complete squads...

[helterskelter]

 

Theres always combining with a bundle. Which is what I'm saving for to do my terror squads. Theres savings in that, plus we knew this was not going to be cheap when we started. Hobbying to your means ladies and gents. Plus IF got their bits which a percentage have been begging for! No pleasing some folk clearly, enjoy what you have! We're gonna be waiting years for an Emperor model

I think 'no pleasing some folk' is a bit of an unreasonable thing to say to this, because it's a very valid argument. It costs £11 a model for the Warders or Templars, without the 12% shipping on top of that. That's pretty ridiculous, even for this expensive part of an expensive hobby. All well and good saying 'everyone was waiting for them' but that doesn't excuse such a high price.

Ok my example, a 10 man night lords terror squad with volkite chargers is £96.50, thats without postage, without meltabombs, without having to find or convert a chainglaive and without having the arms or bits to effectively model the fact they have ccw and bp aswell unless the example were to purchase despoiler sets instead of mk. Iv. So bump up the cost accordingly.

 

On this forum did i see a ten man warder squad cost £110 and you get all the cool bits and pieces? Without postage there though mind i give you that.

 

Not really too far off the mark if i swapped out the mk. IV for despoilers

[Fire Golem]

Terror Squads are another example of a unit that's too expensive though. 10 of any other power armoured legion specific units comes to around £70, because they're supplied as a full set. That's an extra £40 for the IF stuff, which is a significant amount.

 

The terror squad is a weird example too as it's basically just the Night Lords upgrade stuff. It's nothing like any of the other legion specific units and it feels a bit like a cop out.

[Balthamal]

Depends how creative you get with them. 

 

I bought the 3 tactical squad bundle, pads, volkites and power weapon sets and the torso/head upgrades. That was roughly around the £260 mark. Another £30 getting bits off ebay of various shapes and sizes and voila. 2 Terror Squads (Volkites and CC/BP) 10 bolter marines that can work out as tacticals or a Terror Squad if so chosen and also enough pieces for 3 HQs and command squad.

 

Yes it's expensive. Yes it can be done cheaper if you have a lot more patience to green stuff all the conversions and have a steady paint hand to do the Legion symbols. At the end of the day a gun isn't being held to anyone's head and I'm pretty sure the community assistance thread's overwhelming message is: Don't start a Legion project without sizing up the cost because it's brutal.

 

I'm selling all of my regular 40k stuff in the next few weeks just to be able to afford more things.

 

Tough but nobody said the Great Crusade would be a walk in the park

[Fire Golem]

I don't know if you're aiming that at me, but I know that it's expensive. My point is that these new models are a lot more expensive than the equivalents in other legions. £110 is a lot more than the already expensive £70/75 for other legions. Significantly more. I think it's a perfectly reasonable complaint that it's so much more expensive for 10 Imperial Fists than any other legion specific marine squad (apart from NL...)

[Marshal Rohr]

Well, honestly you don't need the upgrade kits to represent these guys. If you buy a pack of one, that's enough pieces to spread the love to two squads. And the different color scheme alone means you don't need much effort to mark them out.

[Fire Golem]

What, you mean you don't need 10 shields for 10 warders? They're a big part of their equipment... Almost the defining thing about them, I'd say.

[Balthamal]

I don't know if you're aiming that at me, but I know that it's expensive. My point is that these new models are a lot more expensive than the equivalents in other legions. £110 is a lot more than the already expensive £70/75 for other legions. Significantly more. I think it's a perfectly reasonable complaint that it's so much more expensive for 10 Imperial Fists than any other legion specific marine squad (apart from NL...)

 

It wasn't aimed at you no, more a general point about relevant costs etc but I digress.

 

I do agree on the costing issue with the fists, but I'm trying to keep perspective with it. There aren't just heads/torsos included but a full set of a weapons so I'd expect something more pricey than just the basics but given that so much is included it would have made more sense to me to have the pieces included in the overall kit.

 

On the other  hand they could have been the single body piece you get with things like Night Raptors/Ashen Circle/Palatine Blades etc

 

Think it's defo worth pinging an email across to FW to see what they have to say though

[Daddywarcrimes]

I'm stoked they painted the Templars. That's as close we can get to an official scheme for now. 

 

Still not feeling the Phalanx Warders. They have an unusual nautical vibe.

 

They are 'Marines'.

 

All in all, I'm loving them, and I'm extremely hopeful for what the VIth Legion shield wall will look like.

[Fire Golem]

 

I don't know if you're aiming that at me, but I know that it's expensive. My point is that these new models are a lot more expensive than the equivalents in other legions. £110 is a lot more than the already expensive £70/75 for other legions. Significantly more. I think it's a perfectly reasonable complaint that it's so much more expensive for 10 Imperial Fists than any other legion specific marine squad (apart from NL...)

 

 

It wasn't aimed at you no, more a general point about relevant costs etc but I digress.

 

I do agree on the costing issue with the fists, but I'm trying to keep perspective with it. There aren't just heads/torsos included but a full set of a weapons so I'd expect something more pricey than just the basics but given that so much is included it would have made more sense to me to have the pieces included in the overall kit.

 

On the other  hand they could have been the single body piece you get with things like Night Raptors/Ashen Circle/Palatine Blades etc

 

Think it's defo worth pinging an email across to FW to see what they have to say though

Ah okay, sorry then. it's just, there's so much already in the kit they may as well have just put in the legs, backpack and one arm... Price it at £35 like the others and then it's £70 for 10 instead of £110, and you don't get loads of bits left over you probably won't get much use out of. And it seemed like people were saying 'you already knew it was expensive, can't please some people obviously.' £40 is a significant amount. £11 a model is ridiculous. Yes it's already expensive, but that's just crossing a line.

[Marshal Rohr]

I just noticed the Templar Brethren were not made with the Mark3 Despoiler set. They don't have the 'charging' legs.

[Slips]

I just noticed the Templar Brethren were not made with the Mark3 Despoiler set. They don't have the 'charging' legs.

The Mk III Despoiler legs are actually the same as the Mk III Tactical legs if the pictures on FW are anything to go by.

[Fire Golem]

I just noticed the Templar Brethren were not made with the Mark3 Despoiler set. They don't have the 'charging' legs.

You need the arms from it though, or similar. The outstretched ones with no hands for the Templars swords. And the bolt pistols too.

 

Ah, and what Slipstreams said.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Mark 3 Assault Sprue, a Mark 3 Tactical Squad Bundle, and a Single Templar Upgrade is 103.5 pounds. This gives you everything you need, minus 6 bolt pistols (which can be substituted with any other type easily). You also end up with 5 spare mark 3 torsos, heads, 10 sets of shooting arms, 10 Phobos Bolters, and 10 unadorned mark 3 shoulder pads to contribute towards other squads.

[Fire Golem]

Still £31.50 more than the equivalent from another legion, and you still end up with loads of bits you can't really use without paying more for other parts.

[Marshal Rohr]

Still £31.50 more than the equivalent from another legion, and you still end up with loads of bits you can't really use without paying more for other parts.

If you're determined to be upset about it, I can't help you. I don't know why FW chose an upgrade kit instead of full kit (well, I do, they needed to pump these out to work on more profitable lines) but they did. Short straw? Yeah. But when Prospero comes out, it won't really matter with the volume of sales they'll be doing.

[Slips]

Templars aren't a concern for me since I only need 5 (but want 10). So, yeah, sure, 55 pounds for 5 Marines sure is lame but it could be worse.

 

 

The Mark 3 Assault Sprue, a Mark 3 Tactical Squad Bundle, and a Single Templar Upgrade is 103.5 pounds. This gives you everything you need, minus 6 bolt pistols (which can be substituted with any other type easily). You also end up with 5 spare mark 3 torsos, heads, 10 sets of shooting arms, 10 Phobos Bolters, and 10 unadorned mark 3 shoulder pads to contribute towards other squads.

By assault you mean Despoiler, right? just making sure since I'm trying to do my own quick math for 15 Phalanx Warders :s

[Fire Golem]

I don't see how you shaving £6.50 off the price was going to change my opinion? I'm not determined to be upset about it, I'm a bit peed off its that much more expensive than the equivalent in other legions. I don't even do Imperial Fists. I just don't understand why they did it this way.

[Marshal Rohr]

No the mark 3 assault upgrade Sprue it has the arms and 4 additional power swords. Growing a hefty bits box is more important in 30K than 40K. If you skimp on purchases because you end up with stuff you don't need, you'll always be paying for more than you want down the line.

[Slips]

No the mark 3 assault upgrade Sprue it has the arms and 4 additional power swords.

Alright, thanks.

Took me a while to find since I derped out and was looking for Mk III assault upgrades instead of the Power Weapon Sets

Sadly I don't think you can use that method with the Warders - which is what I was trying to do.

Edit: @Firegolem, while it does suck that FW decided to go this route, the best we can do is E-Mail them En Masse about our displeasure and hope they change it. Grumbling about it here, sadly, wont do much good. And trust me, I and probably every 30k IF, 40k BT and/or IF and potentially even the CF and other Successor players are probably trying to find a way to cut the costs as much as we can.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't see how you shaving £6.50 off the price was going to change my opinion? I'm not determined to be upset about it, I'm a bit peed off its that much more expensive than the equivalent in other legions. I don't even do Imperial Fists. I just don't understand why they did it this way.

Other than Tyrant Siege Terminators, Laernaeans, and Dark Furies most future FW special units will follow this pattern. Headhunters, Mor Deythan, and Iron Havocs will be upgrades.

[Fire Golem]

 

I don't see how you shaving £6.50 off the price was going to change my opinion? I'm not determined to be upset about it, I'm a bit peed off its that much more expensive than the equivalent in other legions. I don't even do Imperial Fists. I just don't understand why they did it this way.

Other than Tyrant Siege Terminators, Laernaeans, and Dark Furies most future FW special units will follow this pattern. Headhunters, Mor Deythan, and Iron Havocs will be upgrades.

Aside from the fact that's speculation, that's not a good thing? And whose to say they won't do it with the terminators? God knows how much my 10 Learneans will cost if I'm buying the 2 kits and 2 cataphractii kits for the one arm and shoulder pad I need.

[Marshal Rohr]

It's not speculation. FW specifically said unless the squad requires extensive sculpts, like the bionic Iron Hands, Gal Vorbak, or ornate Palatine Blades, the upgrade sprues would be the way forward to free up their limited staff for more important projects. Really a Phalanx Warder squad only costs the 66 pounds for 2 Breacher squads. Anything you add to that is your own choice. Headhunters, Havocs, and Mor Deythan can all be represented with options available. What you're paying for now is the legion specific bits. The Templars and Warders could've been represented without the sprues. Thankfully FW wanted to do something to give us options to make them stand out.

[Slips]

Lets just put this little part of the conversation to rest.

 

Yeah, it sucks that, for the most part, legions will be getting upgrade sprues for most of their units. But, if like Rorh said, it speeds up the workflow of their artists and is something FW could have done WAAAY more simply (Templars can currently be done with the normal IF upgrades and Power Swords - Phalanx warders would just need a fancy shield & arm + power axe) but decided not to, who are we to complain, really?

 

Because I'm BEYOND happy that we've gotten Phalanx Warders and Templar Brethren kits over "Heres a Solarite Power Gauntlet and some 30k Templar Shoulders/Heads. Good luck with the Power Swords and extra stuff" and "Here's a Fancy Breacher Shield. Have fun using run-of-the-mill power axes and the Already-available IF kits." that they could've EASILY given us over these.

 

If you want to represent Templars and Phalanx Warders on the (relatively) cheap, you can do it; they just won't be as baseline-blinged.

 

Now with all that out of the way:

 

The kits themselves, I find stellar. Couldn't be happier. Sure some have nitpicks with them but, I don't. Just the Templar Brethren Paint Scheme made my Night because thats how I (more or less) painted up my own that I had kitbashed from the IF Chest/Head Upgrades + GK power Swords, etc. I just used Gold Shoulder Pad Trims over their Silver - which I think Look better.

 

I would've liked to have seen a Painted up Phalanx Warder but, oh well, maybe I'll luck out and get my scheme close to FW's again.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Black and Yellow makes me think that is just the Veteran scheme for the legion as a whole, since Tyr and the assault sergeant in extermination wear the same heraldry. The warders will probably be in the same scheme. As for the armor marks, I feel like they got them backwards. Mark 4 Templars would've been more appropriate because the mark 3 will always be the iconic Breacher armor. Personally, my Templar Crusaders and Brethren will be deviating significantly to be more in line with the First Captain at the Siege. It'll differentiate them well from other armies.