Liber thought experiment - Order origins.

[Aqui]

To coincide with this months Liber Challenge, I thought it might be good to discuss an aspect of background that I know little of. How Sisters Orders are made outside of the main ones. Whilst there are a number of them, there isn't much by way of explanation as to how they came to be that I know of. Does the Abbess decree such a thing? Does an existing Canoness decide to form her own? Another reason? My own Order, the Order of the Dauntless Spirit was founded from the remnants of a group of sisters from the Order of the Dauntless Spirit.

So let's discuss!

Edit: clarification.

[Tenebris]

How Sisters are made? My oh my... this will be a long one. You see there is a daddy and there is a mommy... they... then do this and that...

 

Ah the Sororitas you meant?

[Conn Eremon]

Aye, it would interest me greatly to hear what some of those more knowledgeable of the Sisters have to say about this.

[Aqui]

I understand that, during the Age of Apostacy, the "original" Sisters Orders were created by those Sisters who dealt with Goge Vandire, but there are those smaller Orders who come to be. I was just wondering how

[Conn Eremon]

If I recall right, at that time there was only the one Order, though the founders of later Orders did live at that time and participate in the formation of their Orders (except for one).

[*Furyou Miko]

Generally, a new Order is founded either by Decree, or because a Mission has been separated from its' parent order for a long period of time and when contact is re-established, their theological drift (or even membership) has changed enough that they're effectively an entirely different group.

 

The Order of the Blessed Enquiry would be an example of the former, as well as being an example of a Sister changing Orders (in reference to another thread). They were founded as an Order Dialogous to investigate Slaanesh. When the mission was destroyed, the survivor, Ephrael Stern, transferred into the Order of Our Martyred Lady.

 

Originally, though, there was the Daughters of the Emperor, an ascetic Order. Vandire changed them to the Brides of the Emperor.

 

In the aftermath of Vandire's death near the end of M.36, Thor founded the Adepta Sororitas out of the survivors of the Brides. His successor, Alexis XXII, split them into four orders, two based on Holy Terra, and two based on Ophelia VII. Those four were the Order of the Ebon Chalice, the Order of the Argent Shroud, the Order of the Fiery Heart and the Order of the Valorous Heart respectively.

 

About two hundred years later, the Order of the Fiery Heart was renamed the Order of Our Martyred Lady upon St. Katherine's death.

 

In M.38, Ecclesiarch Deacis VI split the convents again, creating the Order of the Blood Rose on Ophelia VII, and the Order of the Sacred Rose on Holy Terra.

[Aqui]

Generally, a new Order is founded either by Decree, or because a Mission has been separated from its' parent order for a long period of time and when contact is re-established, their theological drift (or even membership) has changed enough that they're effectively an entirely different group.

The Order of the Blessed Enquiry would be an example of the former, as well as being an example of a Sister changing Orders (in reference to another thread). They were founded as an Order Dialogous to investigate Slaanesh. When the mission was destroyed, the survivor, Ephrael Stern, transferred into the Order of Our Martyred Lady.

That makes sense. My own DIY Order is formed from what's left of a group of Valorous Heart Sisters after a major conflict, so the latter applies in that case

[Conn Eremon]

Mind expanding more on the Decrees? Who issues them, what do they entail, what kind of frequency might there be, etc.

[Tenebris]

I believe that an Order is formed very much like the modern holy/monastic orders are established and spread. Initially an edict by the Pope was required but this would be impracticable in the vast 40k universe hence I think that it is the remit of the Cardinals to sanction such undertakings. 

 

Usually the establishment of an Order would follow a certain need, perhaps a new string of worlds was discovered by a Rogue Trader and is being "educated" by the missionaries, hence a more consistent martial support is required. Still I think that the major driving factor to establish an Order would be a clearly political reason. By political I mean that a Cardinal of a wealthy Synod would sanction and support as many Orders as he could since this directly translates into power, martial influence, a major saying in the ruling council of that world and even into a not so covert power building scheme. 

 

With an Order the Synod establishes three things, control of an area, control of the local nobility via the Sororitas and the most precious spending coin in the Imperium, the lives of the faithful. I think that the major drive is indeed a political one or a play by a high ranking ecclersiarch. 

 

As for the wargear and the logistics that come with this act, well the Ecclesiarcy is rich so there is no limit on their credit card. 

 

The fact is that an Order is an exclusive of the Ecclesiarchy hence it is the best way to spread its influence on a world before the other imperial factions come for a piece of its riches, faithful and wealth... yeah, it is just politics. 

[*Furyou Miko]

Mind expanding more on the Decrees? Who issues them, what do they entail, what kind of frequency might there be, etc.

It's not clear. Two Ecclesiarchs - Alexis XXII and Deacix VI - issued Decrees to split the Major Orders. Presumably the Abbess can also issue a Decree to create an Order Minoris, and potentially the Canonesses of the Major Orders as well.

[Tenebris]

Traditionally a conclave was always called for the creation of a monastic order. If the argument was valid and enough financial support was gathered among the nobility and the Church the Pope was asked to sign a Decree which acted as a form of "constitution" for the said Order. A line followed by the Church was to expand only where the political consent was given or where the local nobility was impressed enough to allow for a group of educated monks and clerics to enter their homes and teach their kind, usually even ending as the advisers for the ruling classes.

 

While the reason for the creation of a monastic order was more often than not a new religious doctrine, an evaluation of the dogma or the following of a principle, yet this is the fairy tale of it, for it truth it was all a very well played game of international politics and the result of an acute understanding of the local population which was or was not more "favorable" to a certain decree of the religious dogma. In short it was a la carte...

 

Said that the Decree is in the 40k terms a high document which is usually within the remit of the higher functionaries of the imperial agencies. In this case it is that of a Cardinal, an important Deacon or a request by a pious Planetary Governor. The Ecclesiarchy is much intertwined with the local cults and organizations, guilds and companies hence it an Order would be a well thought move by the Synod to secure a piece of the bounty from a planet or a "pilgrim route".

 

As I have said above with a Decree the Synod can legally create a military presence wherever they wish and there is little to no one who can dispute their right to do it. An Oder is essentially a direct mean to expand the influence of the Ecclesiarchy and I think that even the most bare and trivial reason would be enough to create or sanction one. It is a play for power and influence and the Ecclesiarchy usually has the best pickings along with the Administratum.

 

In practical terms a reasonable Cardinal would sign the Decree as soon as he is able to do it, namely when he can secure the logistics of creating a Sororitas Order and has enough resources and supporters to consolidate his claim. It is a wise move to place such an Order where its influence is the greatest, namely among the ruling classes of the imperial world in question or where their military might is so integral that everyone has to pay tribute to the Ecclesiarchy.

 

As for the Order Minoris as I have said above, every claim is a good one and few can oppose it, save the Ordo Hereticus. A good reason would be the first colony on a newly discovered world, a revision unit for ancient and heretical texts which can prove to be powerful talismans or the protection of a real or faux relic of the Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarchy is sly about this matter and noting brings you more power than to control the actual items of power which can be everything, from the kelp farms on an Agri-World to the gilded chambers of a hive spire noble household. Not only that but other forms, more esoteric forms of power can be a valid reason to create an Order too. 

[MrFlutterPie]

My order hails from Holy Terra but was created for specific purpose and mission.  Fluffwise I think most orders will come from either Terra or Ophelia VII.

[CommissarZac]

I've been toying around with the idea of a lone Hospitaler being recovered by a guard regiment, later serving side by side with the medics, eventually saving the life of a Commissar.  Who then petitions the Ministorum to erect a shrine on the guards newly colonized planet.   Fluff nazis how heretical is this?

[*Furyou Miko]

Depends on why she's a lone Hospitaller.

 

At some point she'd need to contact her superiors (the Canoness of her order, or the Canoness of the Order that they derived from, or the Abbess if somehow in your fluff an entire Major Order of hospitallers has been wiped out) to ask permission - which would probably come in the form of an order to attach herself to said regiment.

 

Basically, as long as the regiment are loyal and untainted, there's no reason for anyone to refuse her.

[Ace Debonair]

I didn't know I needed this thread in my life until I'd read it.

Great stuff!

Another novice question for anyone willing to answer it:

Is there much theoretical room for an Order to take a different view on the Emperor?

For example, to view Him almost solely as a warrior whose protection is afforded only to the strong, so that they in turn may protect the weak?

[Duke Danse Macabre]

I didn't know I needed this thread in my life until I'd read it.

Great stuff!

Another novice question for anyone willing to answer it:

Is there much theoretical room for an Order to take a different view on the Emperor?

For example, to view Him almost solely as a warrior whose protection is afforded only to the strong, so that they in turn may protect the weak?

With sisters their power comes from their faith in the God Emperor, if they do not hold him as a god the faith element is then brought into question and there is nothing to seperate them from a standard body of troops.

Afterall this is the Troops that are brought about by the Church of the Imperium, I don't think it would fly that they turned their gaze from the Emperors devine light.

In short unless they see him as a god there is no room.

You could however see him as more of a warrior god, there are many customs and religions in the imperium which have been brought to the worship of the emperor and when the Church converts them to the Imperial Truth they tend to take on board the customs and practices of the power, some may worship the emperor through prayer alone, others through ceramonial cutting, another sacrifice, so long as they worship him they do not care how.

[Conn Eremon]

I believe Ace was talking about Him as a Warrior God, rather than just a warrior as most Astartes do. A variation of the Creed, which the lore certainly suggests is very common, rather than a rejection.

 

Edit: Should have read past the 'In short' sentence . ..

[Ace Debonair]

Oops, yeah that should be "see Him as a Warrior-God".

Kinda missed a significant word out there, my bad.

... You can tell I'm too used to dealing with Space Marines, can't you?

[Father Mehman]

I just learned more by reading this thread than my entire years spent in college. Wow !

There are some certain "newly discovered" planets that might need some serious protection. Who am I going to call? The Sisters of Battle!

[Duke Danse Macabre]

I believe Ace was talking about Him as a Warrior God, rather than just a warrior as most Astartes do. A variation of the Creed, which the lore certainly suggests is very common, rather than a rejection.

Edit: Should have read past the 'In short' sentence . ..

Oops, yeah that should be "see Him as a Warrior-God".

Kinda missed a significant word out there, my bad. :sweat:

 

... You can tell I'm too used to dealing with Space Marines, can't you? :pinch:

I assumed that may be the case, that's why I covered that at the end, as said the imperial church absorbs so many cultures as it goes from planet to plant the gods of those worlds are removed but the method of prayer is often retained and turned to the emperor, so long as they worship the right guy the method is up to them.

In that way he takes many guises as a elder wise patron, guardian protector, an avenging angel, etc.

[Ace Debonair]

Thank you kindly, that's just what I was hoping to hear.

[Marshal Mattias]

This thread is great and has really got me thinking. I am just starting to put together a fledgling allied force of Sororitas and had originally planned on making them Order of the Argent Shroud. My main Black Templar force dates from the old GW international campaign for Armageddon, so this was the origin of my crusade. Formed from various surviving units across the planet, I felt it was appropriate that some of the surviving Sisters of the Argent Shroud from Helsreach may have found common purpose with the Templars. After all, they fought and bled beside them in the halls of the Temple of the Emperor Ascendant, and an oath sworn in battle is a potent thing ;)

 

Now to my point; the handful of survivors who are now marching with a band of Zealous Astartes, Hereticus inquisitors and fervent Witchhunters, are they still part of their original order, or divergent enough to be declared a new one? It would also give me the opportunity to tweak the paintscheme a little to my tastes as well as grow a new order alongside my own crusade.

 

So, any ideas to suggest? Any potential fluff-pitfalls to avoid in establishing this new order? Currently they are leaderless - their superior on Helsreach died and the survivors were the lucky few, rather than the experienced veterans. Their current HQ choice is a Hereticus inquisitor called Detritous, who is my counts-as Jacobus. Maybe his zeal and their inexperience meant he has swayed them to his cause and they are practically rogue?

 

Also, my Templars are old-school and don't venerate the Emperor as a God. They do have a healthy respect for the martial skills of the Sisters, and understand the power of their belief and faith though. Is this a problem? Would the sisters really swear some kind of oath of allegiance to a force who openly did not worship their God?

 

I like the idea of creating my own spin-off order, but if I do it then I want to do it right ;)

[Jacinda]

Would the sisters really swear some kind of oath of allegiance to a force who openly did not worship their God?

Flip that around for a second. Would Black Templars swear an oath to a Sororitas Order?

I don't see any Sister of Battle swearing allegiance to any person or organization outside of the church.

 

Think about real world militaries. My grandfather (American) liked to tell the stories about when he was wounded in St Lo and then picked up by a Britsh artillery unit when he was released for duty. I won't go in to the stories but he was with them for just a few weeks until he could rejoin his company.

 

Reminants and irregulars are common enough now to be considered normal But that relationship is usually short lived or at most becomes a "joint operation" until some specific goal is reached. What would very likely happen is the reminants of the Order would attach themselves to the Imperial force (in this case the Templars) but as soon as they were able, they would rejoin their Order.

 

So anyway, Sisters of Battle see the non-worshiping Space Marine chapters as exceptions. They are creations of the Emperor doing what the Emperor commanded in the way the Emperor taught them. It is not our place to question why He made it that way.

[*Furyou Miko]

To the Sisters, the Emperor is our God. He is our everything. Our holy father who art in heaven and on Terra.

 

To the Marines, and the Sisters acknowledge this, he is "dad".

 

You could even have the Sisters pitying the Marines, for their status actively prevents them from seeing the true glory of the god-emperor.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

In the case of Templars and sisters they already have strong bonds in place but it is a simple thing considering the size of the Templars Crusades for Said sisters to pertion to become attached to said Crusade and Form their own order, as many templars ships are flying cathedrals in their own right it is a no leap to see them joining in faith.