Khorne Daemonkin - Discussion, Tactics, Background

[Kol Saresk]

I addressed that warbands still follow him. Perhaps not to your satisfaction, but I did consider it. A warband who chooses to follow Skarbrand will do so outside of Khorne's favor. Some will risk it, but the majority will not. And ultimately, this Codex is meant for the mainstream warband. That said, you could always just ally him in since he is in the Codex: Daemons IIRC.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Oh i'm not refutting what you said about only some warbands, just to point out that Skarbdrand was mentioned in the book, so the reason for him not to be in the book, because of his "treason" is kind bonkers.

 

Also even though Skarbrand is exiled from the Kingdom of Khorne, it doesn't mean that those who follow him would be out of the favor of Khorne, since that you're willing or not, you empowers the Blood God when you kill anyway.

[Kol Saresk]

The same could be applied to everyone in the 40K universe.......

 

And yet Karank's whole existence is to hunt down those who were once in Khorne's favor and then fell out of it by turning against Khorne.......

 

I just realized their backgrounds causes them to cancel each other out.......

[Sception]

Oh, my biggest disappointment is that you can only have one command formation in the Blood Host detachment. Which does keep in with the theme of the army worshipping only one Greater Daemon as the Will of Khorne Made Manifest. But basically if you want the Wrath of Khorne or the Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

But on the brightside, you can take the formations outside of the Blood Host detachment system.

The blood host isn't a detachment, it's a formation (of formations). That said, I have yet to see anything that would prevent you from fielding the other formations independently of the slaughtercult. So you field one blood host/slaughtercult with one command bloodthirster formation, and then field as many additional command bloodthirster formations as you want / have points for. Unless those formations are limited to only being fielded as part of the cult, then any limits on how many of them you can take within the cult are utterly meaningless.

 

 

Again, unless I'm missing something. I've seen scans, and flipped through a store copy, but I haven't purchased the book to comb through in depth, and am not likely to do so.

[Trokair]

I am saddened by the absence of Skarbrand, Karanack and Skulltakers Juggernaught, I guess I will be sticking with the current Codex Demons. Demonic Instability and army generation phase will be around a little long.

Kharns absence is also puzzling.

[Kol Saresk]

 

Oh, my biggest disappointment is that you can only have one command formation in the Blood Host detachment. Which does keep in with the theme of the army worshipping only one Greater Daemon as the Will of Khorne Made Manifest. But basically if you want the Wrath of Khorne or the Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

But on the brightside, you can take the formations outside of the Blood Host detachment system.

The blood host isn't a detachment, it's a formation (of formations). That said, I have yet to see anything that would prevent you from fielding the other formations independently of the slaughtercult. So you field one blood host/slaughtercult with one command bloodthirster formation, and then field as many additional command bloodthirster formations as you want / have points for. Unless those formations are limited to only being fielded as part of the cult, then any limits on how many of them you can take within the cult are utterly meaningless.

 

 

Again, unless I'm missing something. I've seen scans, and flipped through a store copy, but I haven't purchased the book to comb through in depth, and am not likely to do so.

“The Blood Host Detachment is a special type of Detachment that can be included in any Battle-forged army. Unlike the Detachments shown in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules, it has a Force Organisation Chart whose slots are a combination of specific Formations and Army List Entries instead of Battlefield Roles. However, it still has compulsory and optional elements, as well as Restrictions and Command Benefits, just like any other Detachment.

 

Although units cannot normally belong to more than one Detachment, units from a Formation that is part of a Blood Host Detachment are an exception. They count as part of both their Formation and the Detachment, and have all associated Command Benefits and special rules. If your Warlord is part of a Formation or an Army List Entry that makes up part of a Blood Host Detachment, that entire Blood Host Detachment is your Primary Detachment.”

 

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Khorne Daemonkin.” Games Workshop Ltd, 2015-03-16. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

“RESTRICTIONS:

This Detachment must include at least one Core choice. For each Core choice you must include between 1 and 8 Auxiliary choices, in any combination, and you may also include up to one Command choice. Only the datasheets listed here may be included in this Detachment.”

 

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Khorne Daemonkin.” Games Workshop Ltd, 2015-03-16. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

That said, you can choose to not use the Blood Host detachment and just use the individual data sheets as you see fit, if you want to still use the formations.

“When choosing an army to play a game of Warhammer 40,000, there are two main ways of organising your collection. These are the Unbound method, which means taking whichever units you like, and the Battle-forged method, which is more rigid but has extra benefits. Both are described fully in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

 

If you are using the Unbound method, simply use the datasheets later in this section that correspond to the models in your collection. If you are using the Battle-forged method, you will instead need to organise the models in your collection into Detachments. This is a fun process in its own right. The most common of these are the Combined Arms and Allied Detachments. Note that you can also include any of the Formations presented in this section as part of a Battle-forged army.”

 

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Khorne Daemonkin.” Games Workshop Ltd, 2015-03-16. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

So as I said, if you are using the Blood Host detachment, you can only take one command formation per Slaughtercult, but you can take any of the formations in any way outside of the Blood Host detachment.

[Sception]

So since the Bloodthirster formation is still a formation in its own right, you 'can include any of these formations as part of a battleforged army'. So you can include as many of the bloodthirster formation as you want, but only one will be part of your blood host detachment (I did have that wrong, thank you for the correction, though as it is a detachment it's especially annoying that it didn't just say 'up to X heavy support' instead of making a single heavy support a formation that then can be taken any number of times in a battleforged army).

 

Again, blood hosts may have only one bloodthirster formation (per core formation), but fielding a blood host places no restrictions that I have yet seen on formations you field apart from it in the same battleforged army, and thus you can field as many bloodthirster formations as you'd like. The non-host thirsters don't even care that they aren't part of the detachment, since they still have the BftBG rule, and thus still generate blood points, and still benefit from the blood tithe points that are the detachment's principle benefit. They just can't be your warlord if the blood host is your primary detachment.

[Hiskrtapps]

After a bit of research it seems, at least from my interpretation of the rules, that a DPrince or BT summoned via the Blood Tithe can switch his flight mode the same turn it comes in DS.

 

Pages 68, you see the rules for FMC and DS, it says"...a FMC that comes in DS from RESERVES, is treated has beenin swooping mode".

 

I looked at the scans of the Blood Tithe pages of the codex, it simply says that Deamons summoned with the Blood Tithe arrive via DS, no mention of reserves or anything.

 

So first, Deamons from the Blood Tithe arn't in reserves for the obvious reason that they don't exist before the game.

 

But you can argue that it is the same with Deamons summoned with Malefic powers, so i checked how the Powers where written, it simply said that its an Summon/Evocation( dunno in english whats the term used, in french its Invocation), so i checked page 26 for those, it clearly says "...Summoned units, arrive using the DS rules, this unit is under controle of the player who used the power and its treated like coming from the reserves for rules purposes..."

 

No where in the Blood tithe rules is there a mention such as this, no where does it says "...units summoned via Blood Tithe, are treated as coming from reserves for rules purpose..." or anything the like.

 

And a FMC is treated to be in swooping mode only if it comes in DS from reserves.

 

So if i'm not mistaken a BT or Dp summoned via the Blood Tithe can switch flight modes the turn it comes in DS.

 

There is also the fact that DS happens at the beginning of the turn, and you change flight mode at the start of your movement phase, and a good thing with 7th Ed( one of the few) is that they made a difference between beginning of the turn, and movement phase, unlike precedent editions.

 

The Rules, pg. 162, "Deep Strike": 

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

[Scribe]

Guys need to stop trying to rules lawyer, GW is too :cussty at writing tight rules to get into 'interpretation' they dont template their rules like good companies, just play it as you figure it will be/should be, agreed upon.

[Hiskrtapps]

1x Land Raider that has the IA:13 upgrade for +1 to invul save for Daemons of Khorne within 6"

 

Cool! What upgrade it is?

[Slayer le Boucher]

Its one of the Legacy of Ruins, that lets you add special rules to a vehicles, there is like 20 of those with all different rules and effects, some are really powerfull but pricey( up to 60 or 90 points i believe) and some are lackluster and are much more for Fluff purpose then any real use.

 

After a bit of research it seems, at least from my interpretation of the rules, that a DPrince or BT summoned via the Blood Tithe can switch his flight mode the same turn it comes in DS.

 

Pages 68, you see the rules for FMC and DS, it says"...a FMC that comes in DS from RESERVES, is treated has beenin swooping mode".

 

I looked at the scans of the Blood Tithe pages of the codex, it simply says that Deamons summoned with the Blood Tithe arrive via DS, no mention of reserves or anything.

 

So first, Deamons from the Blood Tithe arn't in reserves for the obvious reason that they don't exist before the game.

 

But you can argue that it is the same with Deamons summoned with Malefic powers, so i checked how the Powers where written, it simply said that its an Summon/Evocation( dunno in english whats the term used, in french its Invocation), so i checked page 26 for those, it clearly says "...Summoned units, arrive using the DS rules, this unit is under controle of the player who used the power and its treated like coming from the reserves for rules purposes..."

 

No where in the Blood tithe rules is there a mention such as this, no where does it says "...units summoned via Blood Tithe, are treated as coming from reserves for rules purpose..." or anything the like.

 

And a FMC is treated to be in swooping mode only if it comes in DS from reserves.

 

So if i'm not mistaken a BT or Dp summoned via the Blood Tithe can switch flight modes the turn it comes in DS.

 

There is also the fact that DS happens at the beginning of the turn, and you change flight mode at the start of your movement phase, and a good thing with 7th Ed( one of the few) is that they made a difference between beginning of the turn, and movement phase, unlike precedent editions.

 

The Rules, pg. 162, "Deep Strike": 
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

 

 Codex rules> Rulebook.

 

And it doesn't change the fact that nothing prevents you to change flight modes in the same turn.

[Sception]

Other than changing flight modes having to be done at the start of a model's move, and a unit that deep struck not having any more move that turn for them to change flight modes at the start of it?

 

Otherwise any deep striking FMC could simply declare themselves to be changing flight mode at the start of their nonexistant remaining move on the turn they deep strike, thus negating the entire restriction to begin with.

 

Not that that would be a bad thing, mind, the restriction is bad to begin with, but still. No.

[Hellrender]

thein the necron codex not all decurion formations are actual formations. Only thE formations with special rules are formations and able to be taken as a formation outside of the decurion.

 

I imagine that the bloodthirster and daemon engine one cant be taken in a battleforged army in a cad, while you could take a biker/hound formation as formation in a cad.

 

Atleast thats how it works for necron flayers and deathmarkS. You need an actual formation dataslate for it to be an actual formation.

[Sception]

You can't take formations as part of a CAD. A CAD is a particular type of detachment, and apart from these new detachments-of-formations a unit is not allowed to be part of two detachments at once. You can take both the hound formation and a CAD as part of the same battleforged army, but the formation units are not part of the CAD, do not count towards its requirements or limitations, and do not benefit from its rules.

 

In the same way, you can field both a helcult and a chaos marine combined arms detachment as part of a single battleforged army, but the cultists and brute of the helcult do not count towards the minimum or maximum troop or elite slots of the combined arms detachment, and the cultists will not have objective secured.

 

Unless the formation says otherwise, the bloodthrster formation is the same. You may field as many of them as you want alongside your combined arms or slaughter cult detachments. They are not part of those detachments, but rather are separate detachments in the same army.

[Hellrender]

Yes, thats what i meant. A CAD plus a formation. But those formations ned to be actual formations. I dont have The khorne book, but do have The necron one. In that book The decurion detachement can take various formations (9 iirc), but not all og those 9 can also be taken alongside a CAD. Only those with actual formation datasheets.

 

So, what i was replying to, was that people are saging to tåke certain units and spam them alongside a CAD. But that can only work if its an actual formation, which means (atleast in The cron dex) The formations has more than 1 unit and special rules. Not just 1 bloodthirster or 1 maukerfiend.

[the jeske]

I addressed that warbands still follow him. Perhaps not to your satisfaction, but I did consider it. A warband who chooses to follow Skarbrand will do so outside of Khorne's favor. Some will risk it, but the majority will not. And ultimately, this Codex is meant for the mainstream warband. That said, you could always just ally him in since he is in the Codex: Daemons IIRC.

They could be following an eldar and it wouldn't matter. As long as sacrfice is not dedicted to another god, any mass slaughter acts buff up khorn anyway.

 

So if i'm not mistaken a BT or Dp summoned via the Blood Tithe can switch flight modes the turn it comes in DS.

 

At best this means we don't know in which mode they come in. I for one am for keeping the rules as much simiular as possible to avoid multiple types of deep strikes.

[Adra'Melek]

He's right. The Lord of Slaughter and War Machine options are not described as Formations. The others are. So you can have CAD and the Gore Pack. But not CAD and a load of Bloodthirsters. From what I've seen anyway

[Dragonlover]

So, played against Necrons last night, can't remember his list but he ran the Decurion. If it wasn't for that bloody 4+ Reanimation, I'd have killed him twice over. Some general observations, some of which may have already come up:

 

- Your entire army having FNP and +1 Attack is pretty bonkers. One turn I was up to 8 points, went for the Bloodthirster and failed the check. I'd have been better off with the buffs. At no point did I want to summon the two squads of Bloodletters in my case. Definitely worth the 150 point Possessed tax.

 

- I didn't manage to get my fisticlaws bike Lord with BFA into combat so I can't account for it's effectiveness, but the Bloodthirster axe on my jump pack Lord was utterly glorious. Died to a C'tan Shard, promptly mashed it's way through several units on its own with 1 wound remaining. Glorious.

 

- Eight twin lightning claw Terminators is still way too much of an extravagance. Also can't kill Lychguard with Nemesor Zandrekh, but thems the breaks. Not sure if a Bloodthirster would have been a better buy there, or if they'd have done more if I'd been able to pile them into Destroyers.

 

I initially wasn't going to run the Slaughtercult, now I'm so glad I did. That extra Blood Point each turn and the fact you get two effects when you spend them is the only reason the game lasted until turn 7. All in all, I really enjoyed the game and the Codex, and I will be using it again. Now I just have to find someone willing to let me give a Brass Scorpion Blood for the Blood God...

 

Dragonlover

[Slayer le Boucher]

Other than changing flight modes having to be done at the start of a model's move, and a unit that deep struck not having any more move that turn for them to change flight modes at the start of it?

 

Otherwise any deep striking FMC could simply declare themselves to be changing flight mode at the start of their nonexistant remaining move on the turn they deep strike, thus negating the entire restriction to begin with.

 

Not that that would be a bad thing, mind, the restriction is bad to begin with, but still. No.

 

Not moving doesn't mean that you don't have a movement phase, it just means that you don't...move, i don't see where the problem lies.

 

Models that doesn't shoot, doesn't mean they don't have a shooting phase, since they can run in it.

[Hiskrtapps]

 

Other than changing flight modes having to be done at the start of a model's move, and a unit that deep struck not having any more move that turn for them to change flight modes at the start of it?

 

Otherwise any deep striking FMC could simply declare themselves to be changing flight mode at the start of their nonexistant remaining move on the turn they deep strike, thus negating the entire restriction to begin with.

 

Not that that would be a bad thing, mind, the restriction is bad to begin with, but still. No.

 

Not moving doesn't mean that you don't have a movement phase, it just means that you don't...move, i don't see where the problem lies.

 

Models that doesn't shoot, doesn't mean they don't have a shooting phase, since they can run in it.

 

 

You have a movente phase but at the start of movement phase your BT is not on the battlefield and when the BT is on the BT the movent phase is alredy initiated

[Adra'Melek]

The specific wording is "at the start of its move". It doesn't have a move because it deepstriked (deepstruck?). It's not do at the beginning of the movement phase. Regarding the shooting, it would the equivalent of something saying "when a model shoots..." And applying it when the model ran.

 

Edit: hiskrtapps, if summoned with Blood tithe, it IS here at the start of the movement phase as it arrives at the beginning of the turn, not in the reserves part.

[Dragonlover]

Turns out the army I used last night wasn't a Blood Horde or whatever it's called, not everything was part of a Formation. This new way of building armies is gonna take some getting used to...

 

Dragonlover

[UlsanGamer]

Something strange is happening on games workshops web store.

 

KarAnak is now listed under khorne daemonkin.

 

And Khârn is out of stock.

 

Aria found a link for dataslate: Khârn the betrayer..... It's £7.99. It has a broken link to Khârn's butchershorde which is £2.99

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Dataslate-Khârn-the-Betrayer-eBook

 

Edit spelling

[Kol Saresk]

So, played against Necrons last night, can't remember his list but he ran the Decurion. If it wasn't for that bloody 4+ Reanimation, I'd have killed him twice over. Some general observations, some of which may have already come up:

 

- Your entire army having FNP and +1 Attack is pretty bonkers. One turn I was up to 8 points, went for the Bloodthirster and failed the check. I'd have been better off with the buffs. At no point did I want to summon the two squads of Bloodletters in my case. Definitely worth the 150 point Possessed tax.

 

- I didn't manage to get my fisticlaws bike Lord with BFA into combat so I can't account for it's effectiveness, but the Bloodthirster axe on my jump pack Lord was utterly glorious. Died to a C'tan Shard, promptly mashed it's way through several units on its own with 1 wound remaining. Glorious.

 

- Eight twin lightning claw Terminators is still way too much of an extravagance. Also can't kill Lychguard with Nemesor Zandrekh, but thems the breaks. Not sure if a Bloodthirster would have been a better buy there, or if they'd have done more if I'd been able to pile them into Destroyers.

 

I initially wasn't going to run the Slaughtercult, now I'm so glad I did. That extra Blood Point each turn and the fact you get two effects when you spend them is the only reason the game lasted until turn 7. All in all, I really enjoyed the game and the Codex, and I will be using it again. Now I just have to find someone willing to let me give a Brass Scorpion Blood for the Blood God...

 

Dragonlover

Wait, you said the Possessed were worth? Would you be willing to elaborate?

[Dragonlover]

Basically, 150 points to give my entire army FNP and an extra attack for most of the game, plus hold up three Wraiths, was well worth it.

 

Dragonlover