Khorne Daemonkin - Discussion, Tactics, Background

[incinerator950]

How many points?

[Dallas Drake]

Something strange is happening on games workshops web store.

 

KarAnak is now listed under khorne daemonkin.

 

And Khârn is out of stock.

 

Aria found a link for dataslate: Khârn the betrayer..... It's £7.99. It has a broken link to Khârn's butchershorde which is £2.99

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Dataslate-Khârn-the-Betrayer-eBook

 

Edit spelling

 

Makes sense for Khârn to get a dataslate, there is debate as to whether he 'fits' in the Daemonkin book, IMO I see him as a wandering murderer, so a dataslate suits him. I wouldn't be surprised to see Skarbrand getting cut though...

 

Turns out the army I used last night wasn't a Blood Horde or whatever it's called, not everything was part of a Formation. This new way of building armies is gonna take some getting used to...

 

Dragonlover

 

 

Was it the Slaughtercult you ran? 

1 HQ

2-8 Chaos Space Marines, Berserkers, or Bloodletters

1-4 Possessed

0-2 Chaos Cultists

0-2 Chaos Spawn

 

 

I think I'm going to try running this too. My first thought was that the Gorepack stands out as insanely good - HoW on hounds & shred on the bikers HoW attacks is pretty nasty. But I think the Slaughtercult has utility too. Like you said, getting two results on the blood tithe is great and I don't mind Possessed at all, with Rage & FC there's always a use for a ton of S6 attacks per model on the charge. I can't wait for Easter so I can get some games with this codex in, I'm pretty excited too see how it plays.

[Dragonlover]

Yeah,I had a Slaughtercult, then 2 Soulgrinders, a unit of Terminators, a unit of Bikes and a unit of Raptors with an extra Lord. Turns out you can't do Unbound and a proper Detachment in the same list, but I didn't notice because I modified it from a Battleforged list. 2000 point game.

 

Dragonlover

[Dallas Drake]

Yeah,I had a Slaughtercult, then 2 Soulgrinders, a unit of Terminators, a unit of Bikes and a unit of Raptors with an extra Lord. Turns out you can't do Unbound and a proper Detachment in the same list, but I didn't notice because I modified it from a Battleforged list. 2000 point game.

 

Dragonlover

 

Ah right. I think I have a decision to make with Slaughtercult. I'll be min maxing what I want (i.e. 2x5 Spawn, 2x10 Cultists, etc.), I guess it's a question of working out what the Blood Tithe benefits work best on. Furious Charge, Rage, FNP and +1 Attack all work great on Spawn and Possessed/Bloodletters if they can get into combat but I feel like it really needs Flesh Hounds and Maulerfiends in there too. I don't play games over 1500 points so it might be tough to get enough threats into the list to make it work. I need to sit down with a calculator and have a good think about how to get the best out of this book. As of right now I have no intention of going past 4 on the Blood Tithe chart with this formation. 

[Kol Saresk]

You could try the Charnel Cohort

 

“FORMATION:

• 1 HQ unit chosen from the following:

- Daemon Prince

- Herald

- Blood Throne

- Skulltaker

 

• 2-8 units of Bloodletters

• 1-4 units of Flesh Hounds

• 1-4 units of Bloodcrushers

• 0-4 Skull Cannons

RESTRICTIONS:

None.

 

 

SPECIAL RULES:

• Counter-attack

Chosen of Khorne: If this Formation is your Primary Detachment, you can re-roll the result when rolling on the Warlord Traits table in Codex: Khorne Daemonkin.

 

Lord of the Blood Host: If this Formation’s HQ unit is in Deep Strike Reserve, you can choose to re-roll Reserve Rolls for that unit. Other units from this Formation arriving from Deep Strike Reserve do not scatter as long as the first model is placed within 6" of this Formation’s HQ unit, even if they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve during the same turn as it.

 

The Blood Host Unleashed: Enemy units have a -2 penalty to their Leadership characteristic when taking Fear tests caused by units from this Formation.”

 

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Khorne Daemonkin.” Games Workshop Ltd, 2015-03-16. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

 

 

Alongside some Gorepacks

“FORMATION:

• 2-4 units of Chaos Bikers

• 1-4 units of Flesh Hounds

RESTRICTIONS:

None.

 

 

SPECIAL RULES:

• Move Through Cover

• Prefered Enemy (Psykers)

Run them to Ground!: Flesh Hound units in this Formation have the Hammer of Wrath special rule. Chaos Biker units in this Formation have the Shred special rule when resolving Hammer of Wrath attacks.”

 

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Khorne Daemonkin.” Games Workshop Ltd, 2015-03-16. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

So you can have plenty of Flesh Hounds out and about.

[Khornestar]

Er, nm. 

[Sception]

Yeah,I had a Slaughtercult, then 2 Soulgrinders, a unit of Terminators, a unit of Bikes and a unit of Raptors with an extra Lord.

Ah, yeah, can't field terminators without two units of bloodcrushers, which is a 2 bad unit tax to field a 3rd bad unit. Not worth the bother, even with the formation benefit.

 

Bikes you can't field without a second unit of bikes, but two min bike units, which aren't bad units to begin with, are worth the cost for the hound formation, which makes hounds even better.

 

Which, can I say, is really annoying? Formations are a hassle, and that hassle is only worth while if they're making sub par units and combinations better, but these just gather up the already good units to make them better, and gather up the already bad units to make sure you're punished extra hard for fielding them. bad bad bad.

 

Raptors aren't terrible, but go in a formation with more raptors and warp talons. ugh, no, nonono.

 

 

Of course, that's only if you field them as part of the slaughter cult. Nothing says you have to, you can field them as part of a normal CAD alongside your cult instead.

 

 

So, your CAD would include your second lord, the raptors, the terminators, the bikes, and the cultists. The only change from your current rules would be that the cultists would lose their suicide rule on failed morale tests from the slaughter cult detachment. If you used that rule in the game, then yeah, you cheated, if only a little. If you didn't, then you were fine.

 

 

2000 points is around the place I'd start considering the slaughter cult. Definitely more bikes and hounds than you're running, and maulers instead of those grinders, but w/e

 

 

Were you playing with summoned thirsters charging next turn, or the turn after? Because I really don't see a way around this:

 

The specific wording is "at the start of its move". It doesn't have a move because it deepstriked (deepstruck?). It's not do at the beginning of the movement phase. Regarding the shooting, it would the equivalent of something saying "when a model shoots..." And applying it when the model ran.

[LolSkalatrax]

my point. the whole dex looks like a way to sell Thrister's, Chaos lord on juggernauts not really better than heralds with same load out.

it can be good to take dogs boeng as ally to chaos daemons, dex without oblits and other firepower.

[Dallas Drake]

Thanks Kol, I'm not super into the idea of fielding Bloodcrushers, though on closer inspection the special rules for Charnel Cohort sound pretty good - just a shame that you can only safe deep strike the formation's units, Flesh Hounds are fast enough so that leaves Bloodletters or Skullcrushers, not bad I guess. Safe deep strike for units with Daemon using Icons also appeals to me though, I could see me deep striking my Possessed if they could do it safely... honestly though, we should have been able to do this anyway!

 

The formations certainly are a bit of a pain in the bum for people like me who enjoy 1250-1500 points games that can be done in a few hours over an afternoon with a few beers. If I had the time to play 2000 point games I would but alas, I digress. So, I'm thinking of something like this…

 

Slaughtercult

HoK w/Jugger, Axe of Khorne & Hatred

8 Bloodletters w/Icon

8 Bloodletters w/Icon

10 Possessed

5 Spawn

5 Spawn

 

Then either:

 

1) CSM CAD.

Lord w/Jugger, AoBF & 4++

10 Cultists

10 Cultists

Maulerfiend

Maulerfiend

FW Dreadclaw (for the Possessed)

 

Or:

 

2) Gorepack Formation.

10 Flesh Hounds

10 Flesh Hounds

5 Bikes w/Meltax2

5 Bikes w/Meltax2

 

At 2000 points, if I get to play it, I can take all 3.

[Dragonlover]

@Malisteen: I had no Cultists. I could massage the points though, lose a few Terminators. We played with the Bloodthirster assaulting the turn after next, so he sulked on an objective for a turn so I could draw a card.

 

Dragonlover

[Scribe]

Funny thing is, I dont think BT's are even close to the best unit to focus on.

 

Jugger Lord, Bikers, Hounds + Attacks/FNP buffs for victory!

[Trevak Dal]

I think it's just a matter of crossed wires. Special characters were left out for reasons that are completely beyond me, and may not even exist, but that doesn't mean the decision wasn't deliberate, and even if it wasn't that doesn't mean a fix is coming.

 

More likely karanak, kharne, and skarbrand are simply slated to be removed from the game, and will be removed from the next incarnation of their parent books, along with chosen.

 

Taking out Khârn?  Granted, I haven't been around in the hobby as long as you guys, but that doesn't sound plausible.

[incinerator950]

Unless people are forced to buy the kindex and don't have the sixth, who in their right mind would want a Khârn datadlate that wasn't his silly butcherhorde?

[Kol Saresk]

Nah. But he is temporarily out of stock so I wonder if they're finally updating his model. I mean shoot, they just gave him an entire datasheet and a novel. Granted, that was back in December, but still.

[Trevak Dal]

You can't take formations as part of a CAD. A CAD is a particular type of detachment, and apart from these new detachments-of-formations a unit is not allowed to be part of two detachments at once. You can take both the hound formation and a CAD as part of the same battleforged army, but the formation units are not part of the CAD, do not count towards its requirements or limitations, and do not benefit from its rules.

In the same way, you can field both a helcult and a chaos marine combined arms detachment as part of a single battleforged army, but the cultists and brute of the helcult do not count towards the minimum or maximum troop or elite slots of the combined arms detachment, and the cultists will not have objective secured.

Unless the formation says otherwise, the bloodthrster formation is the same. You may field as many of them as you want alongside your combined arms or slaughter cult detachments. They are not part of those detachments, but rather are separate detachments in the same army.

Okay. So bottom line this for me:

HQ JuggerLord Fancy Armor, Axe of Khorne

TR 8 Zerkers, Champ Axe of Khorne melta bomb

TR 8 Zerkers, Champ Axe of Khorne melta bomb

TR 8 Zerkers, Champ Lightning Claw, Melta Bomb

TR 8 Bloodletters

E 3x Terminators, CombiMeltas

Fast: Fleshhound x 10

Fast: Raptor x 5 (AoK, 2x Melta)

Fast: Raptor x 5 (Fist, 2x Melta)

Heavy: Landraider

Heavy: Landraider

Heavy: Landraider

Warmachine thing: Maulerfiend

Warmachine Thing: Maulerfiend

Warmachine Thing: Soul grinder

Warmachine Thing: Helbrute TLLC, Powerfist

Warmachine Thing: Helbrute TLLC, Powerfist

Allies Codex CSM:

Khârn

10 Cultists

1 heldrake

2 x Obliterators.

Legal list, battle forged, yes or no.

If "yes" that's my :cussing Khorne army from Now On. I can duck and dodge the BS with multiple HQs and CADs, but if I can skip the BS of having to get more models, then I can have my Zerkers in Landraiders and roll up the board to the sound of "Bring your whole Crew" by DMX.

[Kol Saresk]

No. The only formations that can be taken outside the Blood Host are the Slaughtercult, Charnel Cohort, Khorne's Bloodstorm, Gorepack and Brazen Onslaught.

[Trevak Dal]

Eh.  Unbound it is then.

[Adra'Melek]

Could you not take a blood host

 

Jugger Lord, berserkers+some others

A few war machine formations.

 

And then Khârn in a CSM CAD with what's left? So not full Daemonkin but possibly battle forged? Don't have CSM so no idea if it all fits.

[Kol Saresk]

That would all be Battleforged because you are taking cleary defined detachments that follow Force Organization charts(the Blood Host) and Formation datasheets(Butcherhorde).

[Uprising]

What do I need to use to take the 8 war machine detachment(I want 8 maulers on the table). 

[Scribe]

If I really wanted Khârn, I'd go with him as Allied, Troops = Cultist, HS = LR. Put your Possessed Tax in the LR (or bring the upgraded one from IA13) and just use the possessed as ablative wounds for Khârn to chew through.

 

I've read the book now and its a solid take on Khorne. Any implications of Legions are minor, and this is clearly a Khorne Cult book, not a CSM book, not a Daemon Book, and certainly not a Legion book. I like it a lot at first read.

 

@Uprising: You need to bring the Slaughter Cult, and then 8 of the War Engine formations, meaning you wont be able to bring any other sub formations if I read it right.

[Trevak Dal]

So long as they get their BFTBG rules, I don't really care about holding objectives-they can have ALL the objectives, I'm Kill whoring the entire game.

 

I got a Daemon Prince, 2 maulerfiends, a Defiler (after seeing the side by side comparison to Soulgrinder and having Easy Access to them without having to fork over Daemon Allies-some Changes Are Going to be made.  Holy Crap it's ridiculous how much better a Soul Grinder is than a Defiler), and 3 Landraiders and 2 Helbrutes and a Turkey.

 

The 'theme' I played Waaay back when (before my MSU zerker/spawn army took shape), was all the Stuff I don't really use often in my "Professional/Tactical Soldier/Warrior CSM army" would be all the walkers rolling with the Landraiders and kicking crap.  The only way it's been slowed has been an eldar player throwing A LOT of Firedragons and Dark Reapers at them-which lead to the MSU Zerker/Spawn spam army that he hates because they're going to dig his elf ass out of whatever hole there are in, and like a Honey badger, they don't care how bad it hurts them-they're going to cut the elves deeper.

[Kol Saresk]

The Blood Host Force Org Chart. You have to take a Slaughtercult though.

[Chaeron]

I've received it - will have a gander tomorrow :)

[Slayer le Boucher]

 

 

Other than changing flight modes having to be done at the start of a model's move, and a unit that deep struck not having any more move that turn for them to change flight modes at the start of it?

 

Otherwise any deep striking FMC could simply declare themselves to be changing flight mode at the start of their nonexistant remaining move on the turn they deep strike, thus negating the entire restriction to begin with.

 

Not that that would be a bad thing, mind, the restriction is bad to begin with, but still. No.

 

Not moving doesn't mean that you don't have a movement phase, it just means that you don't...move, i don't see where the problem lies.

 

Models that doesn't shoot, doesn't mean they don't have a shooting phase, since they can run in it.

 

 

You have a movente phase but at the start of movement phase your BT is not on the battlefield and when the BT is on the BT the movent phase is alredy initiated

 

 

I will invite you to read the rule book page 17.

 

Resume of a turn;

-1; Beginning of the turn; resolve all the rules and effects where the description says that they work/intervene at the beginning of the turn.

 

-2; Movement phase; In this phase, you can move your units on the table...etc etc etc.

 

-3 Psychic phase

 

4-Shooting Phase

 

5-; Assault Phase.

 

6- End of the Turn.

 

So in the rule book you have a distinct moment in the turn before the movement phase.

 

Deep strikes and reserves comes in play in the Beginning of the turn " phase", AND THEN, you have the movement phase.

 

The only restriction of DS is that the model cannot move during the movement phase, not that the model doesn't have a movement phase, even though it doesn't move, it still have a movement phase.